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have you ever notice what the New Testament says about that very thing to the Hebrews ? It’s rather profound and clear
you obviously have read the giving of the law from Sinai because you’ve spoken understanding of it there look what the Hebrews are taught here
“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
”
Hebrews 12:18-21 KJV
They haven’t come to that place of Sinai’s covenant and Moses mediation but to this other new and better place the better word
“But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
Hebrews 12:22-25 KJV
It seems profound that Hebrew Christians are being told “ you did not come to the law but to Christ and his covenant that came from heaven “
what’s great is that same thing is repeated in many ways
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,
the one by a bondmaid,
the other by a freewoman.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
the one from the mount Sinai, ( the law of moses ) which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
….Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son ( old covenant ) for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.( new covenant )
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, ( old covenant from Sinai )
but of the free.”( new covenant from Christ)
Galatians 4:21-22, 24-26, 30-31 KJV
again ishmael the old covenant and Isaac the new in this prophetic allegory .
we’re not born of the old covenant given from mount sinai that is of bondage corresponding to earthly Jerusalem that is bound.
but the new covenant of promise that came from heaven through Christ the Lord and we know who came from heaven
“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth:
he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:31-36 KJV
The New Testament really seperates Moses word from Christs in many many ways. It’s sad when we don’t appreciate the gospel and what’s actually been done for us and try to stick to the bondage d the mountain that commanded man to stay far away to which they begged not to hear his word anymore lest they die
Christ said his word is life and to come close to him
have you ever notice what the New Testament says about that very thing to the Hebrews ? It’s rather profound and clear
you obviously have read the giving of the law from Sinai because you’ve spoken understanding of it there look what the Hebrews are taught here
“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
”Hebrews 12:18-21 KJV
They haven’t come to that place of Sinai’s covenant and Moses mediation but to this other new and better place the better word
“But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”
Hebrews 12:22-25 KJV
It seems profound that Hebrew Christians are being told “ you did not come to the law but to Christ and his covenant that came from heaven “
what’s great is that same thing is repeated in many ways
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons,
the one by a bondmaid,
the other by a freewoman.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;
the one from the mount Sinai, ( the law of moses ) which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
….Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son ( old covenant ) for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.( new covenant )
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, ( old covenant from Sinai )
but of the free.”( new covenant from Christ)
Galatians 4:21-22, 24-26, 30-31 KJV
again ishmael the old covenant and Isaac the new in this prophetic allegory .
we’re not born of the old covenant given from mount sinai that is of bondage corresponding to earthly Jerusalem that is bound.
but the new covenant of promise that came from heaven through Christ the Lord and we know who came from heaven
“He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth:
he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
John 3:31-36 KJV
The New Testament really seperates Moses word from Christs in many many ways. It’s sad when we don’t appreciate the gospel and what’s actually been done for us and try to stick to the bondage d the mountain that commanded man to stay far away to which they begged not to hear his word anymore lest they die
Christ said his word is life and to come close to him
We have so many spiritual advantages and graces given to us that they did not have.
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Amen I sure am glad I was born now also . amen I like that you said they “ did “ not past tense , because they were the first to convert to Christianity ( the believing remnant I mean who accepted him the apostles and disciples )
without them we couldn’t have had eye witnesses to his word and glory nor known his word at all
I like his plan to unite Jew and gentile into one kingdom removing the dividing wall and basing everything on faith rather than nationality or age , race or gender like the law did
Christ in us the hope of glory wasn’t offered to them under the old covenant
and knowing Jesus is so much better than anything we could ever know or have
God bless and keep you in all the wonders of our lord
without them we couldn’t have had eye witnesses to his word and glory nor known his word at all
I like his plan to unite Jew and gentile into one kingdom removing the dividing wall and basing everything on faith rather than nationality or age , race or gender like the law did
Christ in us the hope of glory wasn’t offered to them under the old covenant
and knowing Jesus is so much better than anything we could ever know or have
God bless and keep you in all the wonders of our lord
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The OP's question was "how would you explain" stuff like this to a non-believer. Frankly, I'd tell them Moses' law was fair, because there was a process. You couldn't just take your kids to the judge and simply have them executed- you could be questioned about the matter.
It does.
No. But the judge can determine whether or not the law was actually broken. In this particular case, the law is only broken if "after they have chastened him" he will not hearken. So, if someone tries to put their child to death, there is a question as to whether or not the child was chastened or not. The way the law reads, it looks like you can just take your child to the judge and have him stoned to death, but it's just not that simple.
That's true, but again, more than one person would have to witness it, and testify to it... and the judge can ask questions to determine the truth of the matter.
This thread isn't even about whether or not you should keep the law, so I don't know why you even brought this up... The OP asked how you would explain the Law to a non-believer- and I assume most non-believers would consider the law barbaric, but it's not.
Instructions for formal judgement. Joe Israelite couldn't just take revenge on his own, there was a process. Notice Jesus didn't say what was written was wrong- there was a problem with what had been said.
Yes- notice how he says not to take revenge on your own... and how he doesn't say you can't take them to court. (Of course you're supposed to settle grievances with other believers outside of court)
No, they're not the same, but they're not incompatible either.
Okay, fine be dismissive, but I'm going to let people who are actually interested know that the Church does not supplant civil government whom Jesus said to submit to. Obviously, Jesus' command to turn the other cheek would make law enforcement impossible if it applied to police on duty. It's pretty clear that Jesus wasn't preaching a world with only the gospel and no government.
It does.
No. But the judge can determine whether or not the law was actually broken. In this particular case, the law is only broken if "after they have chastened him" he will not hearken. So, if someone tries to put their child to death, there is a question as to whether or not the child was chastened or not. The way the law reads, it looks like you can just take your child to the judge and have him stoned to death, but it's just not that simple.
That's true, but again, more than one person would have to witness it, and testify to it... and the judge can ask questions to determine the truth of the matter.
This thread isn't even about whether or not you should keep the law, so I don't know why you even brought this up... The OP asked how you would explain the Law to a non-believer- and I assume most non-believers would consider the law barbaric, but it's not.
Instructions for formal judgement. Joe Israelite couldn't just take revenge on his own, there was a process. Notice Jesus didn't say what was written was wrong- there was a problem with what had been said.
Yes- notice how he says not to take revenge on your own... and how he doesn't say you can't take them to court. (Of course you're supposed to settle grievances with other believers outside of court)
No, they're not the same, but they're not incompatible either.
Okay, fine be dismissive, but I'm going to let people who are actually interested know that the Church does not supplant civil government whom Jesus said to submit to. Obviously, Jesus' command to turn the other cheek would make law enforcement impossible if it applied to police on duty. It's pretty clear that Jesus wasn't preaching a world with only the gospel and no government.
“Frankly, I'd tell them Moses' law was fair,”
I would tell them it was added because of transgression , meant to hold sinners guilty , was ordained of angels and given into Moses hand for mediation and tonthe levites for intercession.
I’d tell them it administered death and has no glory compared to the surpassing glory of Christ
but I’m worn out on the arguing for the day lol😀
I’m good with what you believe about these things it doesn’t really affect me I have to stick to the thkngs ive learned form myself in scripture and thkngs others get across to my not so smart brain sometimes I just don’t have agreement with some people on some subjects but to me that’s a ok
we have to live up to our own faith regarding the law God bless though I think we agree on where to go for salvstion at least
I would tell them it was added because of transgression , meant to hold sinners guilty , was ordained of angels and given into Moses hand for mediation and tonthe levites for intercession.
I’d tell them it administered death and has no glory compared to the surpassing glory of Christ
but I’m worn out on the arguing for the day lol😀
I’m good with what you believe about these things it doesn’t really affect me I have to stick to the thkngs ive learned form myself in scripture and thkngs others get across to my not so smart brain sometimes I just don’t have agreement with some people on some subjects but to me that’s a ok
we have to live up to our own faith regarding the law God bless though I think we agree on where to go for salvstion at least
To the non-believer, God has had people killed for picking up sticks. That happened. People want to know why we are okay with that. They don't care that the law was a placeholder- they want to know why God had someone killed for picking up sticks. Explaining why he did it, when he did it, (the whole principle of entering God's rest) is the answer. It's not so much that picking up sticks is what actually got those people killed. It was their totally unwarranted lack of trust in God.
The non-believer is thinking "man, I cleaned up the yard this weekend... and he killed somebody for that?" Yeah... after he did miracles upon miracles for them, and then specifically told them not to do no work on the sabbath. God didn't show Joe-unbeliever those signs, or give him that commandment, so it has nothing to do with him- but he's thinking "why were God's laws so ridiculous?" But for Israel, it wasn't ridiculous.
Burning alive the harlot-daughters of priests- some non-believing hypersexual young girl is gonna put themselves in that position of being burned at the stake and say "that's wrong" but they have no business putting themselves into that position, because they didn't have the advantage of being raised by a priest in that culture, and if they were raised by a priest in that culture, they probably would have lived a very different life.
What I mean is, you can't just say why the law "isn't right" today. You have to say why it "was right" in it's time- because people are putting themselves in the position of the condemned and saying "why did God condemn those people for THAT?", and you can tell them "no, no, Jesus will forgive you"... but it doesn't matter what you say, in their mind- if God or his law has EVER condemned one person unfairly then everything is a lie.
The non-believer is thinking "man, I cleaned up the yard this weekend... and he killed somebody for that?" Yeah... after he did miracles upon miracles for them, and then specifically told them not to do no work on the sabbath. God didn't show Joe-unbeliever those signs, or give him that commandment, so it has nothing to do with him- but he's thinking "why were God's laws so ridiculous?" But for Israel, it wasn't ridiculous.
Burning alive the harlot-daughters of priests- some non-believing hypersexual young girl is gonna put themselves in that position of being burned at the stake and say "that's wrong" but they have no business putting themselves into that position, because they didn't have the advantage of being raised by a priest in that culture, and if they were raised by a priest in that culture, they probably would have lived a very different life.
What I mean is, you can't just say why the law "isn't right" today. You have to say why it "was right" in it's time- because people are putting themselves in the position of the condemned and saying "why did God condemn those people for THAT?", and you can tell them "no, no, Jesus will forgive you"... but it doesn't matter what you say, in their mind- if God or his law has EVER condemned one person unfairly then everything is a lie.
“God has had people killed for picking up sticks. That happened.”
nope this guy who was given ordination of the law doesn’t forgive transgression
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
Exodus 23:20-21 KJV
I realize you most likely won’t acknowledge that but it’s written
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
Galatians 3:19
“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”
Acts 7:41-43 KJV
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
Acts 7:51-53 KJV
I don’t expect you would acknowledge this but nevertheless you should look into what’s there
nope this guy who was given ordination of the law doesn’t forgive transgression
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
Exodus 23:20-21 KJV
I realize you most likely won’t acknowledge that but it’s written
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
Galatians 3:19
“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.”
Acts 7:41-43 KJV
“Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
Acts 7:51-53 KJV
I don’t expect you would acknowledge this but nevertheless you should look into what’s there
God came down on the mount the first command he gave was “ Thou shalt have no other gods that you worship “
as soon as Moses left thier sight they built a golden calf And worshipped it. They had broken the covenant he spoke before Moses came off the mount this is what he said when this happened
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them:
and I will make of thee a great nation.”
Exodus 32:7-10 KJV
Moses then became thier intercessor and pleaded with God not to destroy them. God agrees ok Moses I won’t destroy them for your sake.
Then Moses goes down sees what they did shatters the tablets and by his own judgement because he saved them with intercession Moses commands them to first eat the idol ground up and then commands the priests to slaughter them at random killing three thousand
then he returns to God to try to make it right. This is what God says
“And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee:
nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.”
Exodus 32:33-35 KJV
What I’m saying is Stephen had it right God handed the ordination of the law over to this angel because of what they did
“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
Exodus 23:20-21
God have them the authority to oversee the law and Moses was made the mediator and intercessor.
God left off from them and left his angel in his stead because they had worshipped the idol and broken his covenant with them. Later he would promise to come himself and speak his own words through Jesus but the angels were given the ordination over the law d Moses was the only mediator
God spoke to angels , angels spoke to Moses , Moses spoke to the people . But the angels had his own disposition imprinted on the law , and Moses was the judge of the people under the now broken law.
what I’m saying is the law became a curse upon them because they worshipped false gods and gave Gods glory to those false gods they did it repeatedly it’s the story of Israel worship false gods , be crushed and then later cry out and be restored then for a generation to he would listen and then again they became idolaters worshipping all the gods around them over and over for hundreds of years
“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;
as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. …..Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
Acts 7:41-43, 53
all I’m saying is Stephen was right in his speech that Paul and his friends stoned him for and Paul was right later when he taught it
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;
and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
Galatians 3:19-20 KJV
the New Testament is God the father , son and Holy Ghost handling the intercession and mediation and speaking the word himself no angels ordaining it , no disposition of unforgiveness , no mediation of Moses who wasn’t perfect but God himself alone spoke the gospel and New Testament
All I’m actually saying is the scripture has these things correct if we can’t understand it it doesn’t mean it’s wrong
there’s a difference in This law ordained of angels because of idolatry and the gospel meant for all people to save thier souls and remit thier sins showing them the true God rather than that veil which israel never saw or understood Thats why they killed Stephen for saying it
and later when Paul converted they wanted to kill him for preaching it there’s a bun Cho about it brother dove into a study of your learning it yourself from scripture it will sink
I’m better than me explaining it
try to notice what Stephen said true with scriptire and you will then alot of Paul’s doctrine will make better sense like this
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
Colossians 2:14-18 KJV
Remember what Stephen said about him handing them over to the worship of angels ……