Apostles, Prophets, Teachers,...

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

I cannot say it better:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.\

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinth 12

loveschild · Jun 26, 2011

Thank you............................

zone · Jun 26, 2011

Prophets & Prophecy
[SIZE=+1]Chapter 15[/SIZE]

Definitions
The verb "prophesy" means "to speak before" (from Greek pro, before, and phemi, to speak). The gift includes both the idea of foretelling and forthtelling, predicting the future and preaching. A prophet was God's mouthpiece: he spoke for God and gave His message. Sometimes that message was regarding the future. Other times it concerned the present, even the past, or simply doctrinal truth, but it was always God's message spoken forth.

The Issue
Some controversy arises at this point. Today's renewed interest and investigation of the spiritual gifts has seen many non-charismatics redefine the gift of prophecy. The Charismatics, of course, readily admit the revelatory nature of this gift and claim its operation today. Some modern non-charismatics have defined the gift in another way, resulting in an interpretation which allows the gift of prophecy today but not in its revelatory sense. They say that the gift of prophecy means only the ability to speak forth for God, to preach; it is not necessarily, they say, a revelatory gift, but the ability to preach the truth of God's Word with great power and insight.

The issue can be stated in the form of two questions:
1) Is it Scripturally allowable to limit the gift to only forthtelling (as opposed to predictive prophecy)? and,
2) Is there in that forthtelling nothing revelatory? That is, is it merely the ability to expound previously revealed truth?

So the question to clarify at the outset is one of definitions. The answer to this question will determine the course of the remainder of the study.

Evidence
First of all, it must be recognized that one who prophesies is a prophet. This would seem obvious enough, but there are those who seek to support this idea of non-revelatory prophecy by making sharp distinction between these two -- a prophet being the one with the revelatory gifts and the one who prophesies being merely the preacher of previously revealed truth. This distinction is both gratuitous and impossible to demonstrate exegetically. One who teaches is a teacher. One who preaches is a preacher. And one who prophesies is a prophet. There is simply no evidence of any distinction between a prophet and one with the gift of prophecy.

Old Testament
There is no question or debate at all, among Bible believers, that the Old Testament prophets received direct revelation and were able to foretell the future. Their function, in part, was to reveal what God would do in the days or years that lay ahead. Their prophecies also dealt with matters of present concern -- what God willed for His people at that time. Their prophecies further concerned matters of doctrine: God revealed truth to them so that they, in turn, would "prophesy" it to the people. There were also times when God would give revelation concerning the past, telling them about some event otherwise unknowable to them; Nathan's confrontation with David over his sin with Bathsheba well illustrates this fact (II Samuel 12:1-12). The fact is clear: the Old Testament prophets both foretold the future and forthtold God-given truth, but both aspects unquestionably involved direct revelation. Their prophecy, whatever it concerned, was clearly revelatory.

New Testament
Neither is there any indication of change in the character of New Testament prophecy, but rather its revelatory nature is clearly assumed. For example, when at His hearing before Caiaphas Jesus was spit upon and smote in the face while blindfolded, He was mockingly exhorted to "prophesy who it is that smote thee" (Luke 22:64). This prophecy would clearly involve direct revelation. When Jesus could tell the hidden past of the woman at the well, He was immediately recognized as a prophet (John 4:19). Agabas exercised the gift of prophecy in a predictive way: he foretold a coming famine and also Paul's coming sufferings (Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10-11). I Timothy 4:14 informs us of the same regarding Paul's gift of prophecy: God told him that Timothy was to receive his gift by the laying on of hands; it was direct revelation. Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 clearly associate the New Testament Prophets with receiving revelation directly from God, and that revelation is not necessarily regarding the future but rather doctrine.

I Corinthians 12-14
Furthermore, it must be recognized that the only passage in the New Testament which treats the subject of prophets and prophecy in an exhaustive manner is I Corinthians 14 (in its context, beginning with I Corinthians 12). In this passage as well, the revelatory character of the gift is clearly present. In I Corinthians 12:28 prophets are ranked as more important than teachers. In I Corinthians 13:2 the gift of prophecy is explained as "understanding all mysteries and all knowledge." A "mystery," in New Testament terminology, is a secret, something unknowable apart from direct revelation. The underlying assumption is that the gift involved special revelation.

I Corinthians 14:1 states the theme of the entire chapter -- the superiority of prophecy to tongues. Verse 3 mentions prophecy but not in a definitive way; it only states the results of the proper exercise of the gift, namely, edification. In other words, verse 3 explains exactly why prophecy is superior to tongues. The following verses expand that argument: prophecy is intelligible speech, and tongues is not; hence, prophecy is superior. And in that sense prophecy is associated with other intelligible speaking gifts, such as teaching (verses 6, 9).

In the following section of chapter 14 prophecy and tongues are associated in this very respect -- that they are both revelatory in nature (verses 26-30; cf., verse 2). Finally, verses 29 and 30 clearly demand that the gift of prophecy being exercised in the church of Corinth was revelatory; it plainly states that the prophecy was something "revealed."

Summary
It is clear enough that the gift of prophecy is not to be confused with the gift of preaching or teaching. That there is overlap between prophesying and preaching is obvious, but the difference is important: A preacher must take a text of previously revealed truth and seek to expound it, and his authority extends only so far as the correctness of his interpretation of that text. But one exercising the gift of prophecy takes no such text but rather delivers a new text, as it were. He delivers truth revealed by God. His authority, then, rests in the message itself: it is the very word of God.

Accordingly, prophecy is ranked above teaching (I Corinthians 12:28). The closest anyone could come, today, to prophesying is not preaching, but simply reading Scripture ver batim.

The gift of prophecy was the ability to declare truth received directly from God, truth obtained by special revelation. The prophets were mouthpieces of God, speaking His word, to their world, regarding either past, present or future truth. They were men of inspired utterance.

The Importance Of The Gift
The gift of prophecy was very important in that it met a real and unique need of the early church. They were at a loss without any of this new revelation yet recorded and available, so God gave His word "part by part" (I Corinthians 13:9) through these gifted men until that written Word was complete.

The prophets' importance also is seen in that, along with the apostles, they were the foundation of the church. Upon the truth revealed through them, Christ's church is built (Ephesians 2:20). Accordingly, they are listed second in importance in I Corinthians 12:28.

The Validation Of Prophecies
I Thessalonians 5:19-20 commands the Christian to prove, or test, all prophecies. How? The apostles were able by their miraculous gifts to vindicate their own message, but no such provision was given the prophets.

To serve as a check against men who would claim the prophetic gift falsely, others were given the gift of discerning of spirits (see chapter 16). This gifted person would stand up and pronounce judgment on a given prophecy, declaring whether it was of God or not. An example of this is given in I Corinthians 14:29 where Paul commands that after the prophets speak, "let the other judge." The message of the true prophet was absolute, but it had to be established that it was in fact from God. This was the function of the discerner of spirits.

There was still another check given to validate the prophecy: complete agreement with the apostles was mandatory. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual," writes the apostle Paul, "let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). This is the standard by which to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1). This test was final. If any man claimed to prophesy but was not in agreement with the apostles' teaching, that "prophecy" was not of God, no matter what else may have seemed to validate his claim. Agreement with the apostles was mandatory.

New Testament Examples
The gift is mentioned in all five New Testament lists (see chapter 2), but only a few New Testament prophets are mentioned. Agabus is one who had the gift. In Acts 11:27-28 he predicted a famine, and in Acts 21:10-11 he predicted Paul's coming sufferings, both of which came to pass as prophesied. (From this example it is clear that the gift of prophecy involved the ability to foretell as well as merely forthtell). Philip's daughters prophesied (Acts 15:32), but no details are given. Acts 13:1 mentions prophets and teachers in the Church at Antioch, although no details are given, nor does it say which men were prophets or which were teachers. Judas and Silas are designated prophets in Acts 15:32. Paul and the other apostles evidently had this gift as well (e.g., Acts 27:23-24).

Their Demise
Several factors demand that the gift of prophecy is no longer given to the church.

1) The most obvious reason that the gift is no longer given is that there is no need for it today. God has given a complete revelation which is altogether sufficient in all matters of faith and practice. The prophets met a unique need of that first century church, before this revelation was available. The church today does not need any prophets to give new revelation, only teachers and preachers to expose it to the Revelation already given.

2) No revelation is being given today (cf., chapter 13). No one today can add a verse to Scripture; no one today is receiving new truth.

3) The prophets were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20), which is now complete (cf., chapter 13).

4) I Corinthians 13:8-13 specifically predicts their demise with the completed canon of Scripture. With a complete Scripture, the other prophecies are useless.

Summary
Prophecy was an important gift to the church and met a unique need in the early church, but it is no longer needed or given. Its "partial" messages (I Corinthians 13:9) have been replaced by the complete Revelation. The church today stands, then, at a great advantage without it.

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/spiritualgifts/ch15.htm

Scotth1960 · Jun 26, 2011

Dear friends, (Dear Ramon):
In Luke 10:1-17, the LORD appoints Seventy men to go out as missionaries. Most of these seventy are mentioned in the NT, but a few of them are known by name only by oral Church tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).
THE SEVENTY (OSB, ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, page 1822 q.v.).
1. Achaicus
2. Agabus
3. Amplias
4. Ananias
5. Andronicus
6. Apelles
7. Apollos
8. Aquila
9. Archippus
10. Aristarchus
11. Aristobulus
12. Artemas
13. Asyncritus
14. Barnabas
15. Caesar
16. Carpus
17. Clement
18. Cephas
19. Cleopas
20. Crescens
21. Crispus
22. Epaphras
23. Epaphroditus
24. Epaenetus
25. Erastus
26. Euodias
27. Fortunatus
28. Gaius
29. Hermas
30. Hermes
31. Herodion
32. James, brother of the Lord
33. Jason
34. Justus
35. Linus
36. Lucius
37. Luke the Evangelist
38. Mark the Evangelist (called John)
39. Mark
40. Narcissus
41. Nicanor
42. Olympias
43. Onesimus
44. Onesiphorus
45. Parmenas
46. Patrobus
47. Philemon
48. Philip the Deacon
49. Philologus
50. Phlegon
51. Prochorus
52. Pudens
53. Quadratus
54. Quartus
55. Rufus
56. Silas (Silvanus)
57. Simeon, son of Cleopas
58. Sosipater
59. Sosthenes
60. Stachys [APPOINTED BY SAINT ANDREW, AS BISHOP OF BYZANTIUM, 38 AD]
61. Stephen the Archdeacon
62. Tertius
63. Thaddaeus
64. Timon
65. Timothy
66. Titus
67. Trophimus
68. Tychicus
69. Urbanus
70. Zenas
God bless these Holy Fathers; Through the Prayers of Our Holy Fathers, LORD JESUS CHRIST, Son of GOD, have mercy upon us. AMEN AND AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

quote=Ramon;477584]I cannot say it better:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.\

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinth 12[/quote]

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

zone said:

Prophets & Prophecy
[SIZE=+1]Chapter 15[/SIZE]

Definitions
The verb "prophesy" means "to speak before" (from Greek pro, before, and phemi, to speak). The gift includes both the idea of foretelling and forthtelling, predicting the future and preaching. A prophet was God's mouthpiece: he spoke for God and gave His message. Sometimes that message was regarding the future. Other times it concerned the present, even the past, or simply doctrinal truth, but it was always God's message spoken forth.

The Issue
Some controversy arises at this point. Today's renewed interest and investigation of the spiritual gifts has seen many non-charismatics redefine the gift of prophecy. The Charismatics, of course, readily admit the revelatory nature of this gift and claim its operation today. Some modern non-charismatics have defined the gift in another way, resulting in an interpretation which allows the gift of prophecy today but not in its revelatory sense. They say that the gift of prophecy means only the ability to speak forth for God, to preach; it is not necessarily, they say, a revelatory gift, but the ability to preach the truth of God's Word with great power and insight.

The issue can be stated in the form of two questions:
1) Is it Scripturally allowable to limit the gift to only forthtelling (as opposed to predictive prophecy)? and,
2) Is there in that forthtelling nothing revelatory? That is, is it merely the ability to expound previously revealed truth?

So the question to clarify at the outset is one of definitions. The answer to this question will determine the course of the remainder of the study.

Evidence
First of all, it must be recognized that one who prophesies is a prophet. This would seem obvious enough, but there are those who seek to support this idea of non-revelatory prophecy by making sharp distinction between these two -- a prophet being the one with the revelatory gifts and the one who prophesies being merely the preacher of previously revealed truth. This distinction is both gratuitous and impossible to demonstrate exegetically. One who teaches is a teacher. One who preaches is a preacher. And one who prophesies is a prophet. There is simply no evidence of any distinction between a prophet and one with the gift of prophecy.

Old Testament
There is no question or debate at all, among Bible believers, that the Old Testament prophets received direct revelation and were able to foretell the future. Their function, in part, was to reveal what God would do in the days or years that lay ahead. Their prophecies also dealt with matters of present concern -- what God willed for His people at that time. Their prophecies further concerned matters of doctrine: God revealed truth to them so that they, in turn, would "prophesy" it to the people. There were also times when God would give revelation concerning the past, telling them about some event otherwise unknowable to them; Nathan's confrontation with David over his sin with Bathsheba well illustrates this fact (II Samuel 12:1-12). The fact is clear: the Old Testament prophets both foretold the future and forthtold God-given truth, but both aspects unquestionably involved direct revelation. Their prophecy, whatever it concerned, was clearly revelatory.

New Testament
Neither is there any indication of change in the character of New Testament prophecy, but rather its revelatory nature is clearly assumed. For example, when at His hearing before Caiaphas Jesus was spit upon and smote in the face while blindfolded, He was mockingly exhorted to "prophesy who it is that smote thee" (Luke 22:64). This prophecy would clearly involve direct revelation. When Jesus could tell the hidden past of the woman at the well, He was immediately recognized as a prophet (John 4:19). Agabas exercised the gift of prophecy in a predictive way: he foretold a coming famine and also Paul's coming sufferings (Acts 11:27-28, Acts 21:10-11). I Timothy 4:14 informs us of the same regarding Paul's gift of prophecy: God told him that Timothy was to receive his gift by the laying on of hands; it was direct revelation. Ephesians 2:20 and 3:5 clearly associate the New Testament Prophets with receiving revelation directly from God, and that revelation is not necessarily regarding the future but rather doctrine.

I Corinthians 12-14
Furthermore, it must be recognized that the only passage in the New Testament which treats the subject of prophets and prophecy in an exhaustive manner is I Corinthians 14 (in its context, beginning with I Corinthians 12). In this passage as well, the revelatory character of the gift is clearly present. In I Corinthians 12:28 prophets are ranked as more important than teachers. In I Corinthians 13:2 the gift of prophecy is explained as "understanding all mysteries and all knowledge." A "mystery," in New Testament terminology, is a secret, something unknowable apart from direct revelation. The underlying assumption is that the gift involved special revelation.

I Corinthians 14:1 states the theme of the entire chapter -- the superiority of prophecy to tongues. Verse 3 mentions prophecy but not in a definitive way; it only states the results of the proper exercise of the gift, namely, edification. In other words, verse 3 explains exactly why prophecy is superior to tongues. The following verses expand that argument: prophecy is intelligible speech, and tongues is not; hence, prophecy is superior. And in that sense prophecy is associated with other intelligible speaking gifts, such as teaching (verses 6, 9).

In the following section of chapter 14 prophecy and tongues are associated in this very respect -- that they are both revelatory in nature (verses 26-30; cf., verse 2). Finally, verses 29 and 30 clearly demand that the gift of prophecy being exercised in the church of Corinth was revelatory; it plainly states that the prophecy was something "revealed."

Summary
It is clear enough that the gift of prophecy is not to be confused with the gift of preaching or teaching. That there is overlap between prophesying and preaching is obvious, but the difference is important: A preacher must take a text of previously revealed truth and seek to expound it, and his authority extends only so far as the correctness of his interpretation of that text. But one exercising the gift of prophecy takes no such text but rather delivers a new text, as it were. He delivers truth revealed by God. His authority, then, rests in the message itself: it is the very word of God.

Accordingly, prophecy is ranked above teaching (I Corinthians 12:28). The closest anyone could come, today, to prophesying is not preaching, but simply reading Scripture ver batim.

The gift of prophecy was the ability to declare truth received directly from God, truth obtained by special revelation. The prophets were mouthpieces of God, speaking His word, to their world, regarding either past, present or future truth. They were men of inspired utterance.

The Importance Of The Gift
The gift of prophecy was very important in that it met a real and unique need of the early church. They were at a loss without any of this new revelation yet recorded and available, so God gave His word "part by part" (I Corinthians 13:9) through these gifted men until that written Word was complete.

The prophets' importance also is seen in that, along with the apostles, they were the foundation of the church. Upon the truth revealed through them, Christ's church is built (Ephesians 2:20). Accordingly, they are listed second in importance in I Corinthians 12:28.

The Validation Of Prophecies
I Thessalonians 5:19-20 commands the Christian to prove, or test, all prophecies. How? The apostles were able by their miraculous gifts to vindicate their own message, but no such provision was given the prophets.

To serve as a check against men who would claim the prophetic gift falsely, others were given the gift of discerning of spirits (see chapter 16). This gifted person would stand up and pronounce judgment on a given prophecy, declaring whether it was of God or not. An example of this is given in I Corinthians 14:29 where Paul commands that after the prophets speak, "let the other judge." The message of the true prophet was absolute, but it had to be established that it was in fact from God. This was the function of the discerner of spirits.

There was still another check given to validate the prophecy: complete agreement with the apostles was mandatory. "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual," writes the apostle Paul, "let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37). This is the standard by which to "test the spirits" (I John 4:1). This test was final. If any man claimed to prophesy but was not in agreement with the apostles' teaching, that "prophecy" was not of God, no matter what else may have seemed to validate his claim. Agreement with the apostles was mandatory.

New Testament Examples
The gift is mentioned in all five New Testament lists (see chapter 2), but only a few New Testament prophets are mentioned. Agabus is one who had the gift. In Acts 11:27-28 he predicted a famine, and in Acts 21:10-11 he predicted Paul's coming sufferings, both of which came to pass as prophesied. (From this example it is clear that the gift of prophecy involved the ability to foretell as well as merely forthtell). Philip's daughters prophesied (Acts 15:32), but no details are given. Acts 13:1 mentions prophets and teachers in the Church at Antioch, although no details are given, nor does it say which men were prophets or which were teachers. Judas and Silas are designated prophets in Acts 15:32. Paul and the other apostles evidently had this gift as well (e.g., Acts 27:23-24).

Their Demise
Several factors demand that the gift of prophecy is no longer given to the church.

1) The most obvious reason that the gift is no longer given is that there is no need for it today. God has given a complete revelation which is altogether sufficient in all matters of faith and practice. The prophets met a unique need of that first century church, before this revelation was available. The church today does not need any prophets to give new revelation, only teachers and preachers to expose it to the Revelation already given.

2) No revelation is being given today (cf., chapter 13). No one today can add a verse to Scripture; no one today is receiving new truth.

3) The prophets were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20), which is now complete (cf., chapter 13).

4) I Corinthians 13:8-13 specifically predicts their demise with the completed canon of Scripture. With a complete Scripture, the other prophecies are useless.

Summary
Prophecy was an important gift to the church and met a unique need in the early church, but it is no longer needed or given. Its "partial" messages (I Corinthians 13:9) have been replaced by the complete Revelation. The church today stands, then, at a great advantage without it.

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/spiritualgifts/ch15.htm

For someone who worships scripture, I find it hard to believe you will yet speak against scripture. Go figure.

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Dear friends, (Dear Ramon):
In Luke 10:1-17, the LORD appoints Seventy men to go out as missionaries. Most of these seventy are mentioned in the NT, but a few of them are known by name only by oral Church tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).
THE SEVENTY (OSB, ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, page 1822 q.v.).
1. Achaicus
2. Agabus
3. Amplias
4. Ananias
5. Andronicus
6. Apelles
7. Apollos
8. Aquila
9. Archippus
10. Aristarchus
11. Aristobulus
12. Artemas
13. Asyncritus
14. Barnabas
15. Caesar
16. Carpus
17. Clement
18. Cephas
19. Cleopas
20. Crescens
21. Crispus
22. Epaphras
23. Epaphroditus
24. Epaenetus
25. Erastus
26. Euodias
27. Fortunatus
28. Gaius
29. Hermas
30. Hermes
31. Herodion
32. James, brother of the Lord
33. Jason
34. Justus
35. Linus
36. Lucius
37. Luke the Evangelist
38. Mark the Evangelist (called John)
39. Mark
40. Narcissus
41. Nicanor
42. Olympias
43. Onesimus
44. Onesiphorus
45. Parmenas
46. Patrobus
47. Philemon
48. Philip the Deacon
49. Philologus
50. Phlegon
51. Prochorus
52. Pudens
53. Quadratus
54. Quartus
55. Rufus
56. Silas (Silvanus)
57. Simeon, son of Cleopas
58. Sosipater
59. Sosthenes
60. Stachys [APPOINTED BY SAINT ANDREW, AS BISHOP OF BYZANTIUM, 38 AD]
61. Stephen the Archdeacon
62. Tertius
63. Thaddaeus
64. Timon
65. Timothy
66. Titus
67. Trophimus
68. Tychicus
69. Urbanus
70. Zenas
God bless these Holy Fathers; Through the Prayers of Our Holy Fathers, LORD JESUS CHRIST, Son of GOD, have mercy upon us. AMEN AND AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

quote=Ramon;477584]I cannot say it better:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.\

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1 Corinth 12

[/QUOTE]

And just what are you talking about????

Scotth1960 · Jun 26, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Dear friends, (Dear Ramon):

In Luke 10:1-17, the LORD appoints Seventy men to go out as missionaries. Most of these

seventy are mentioned in the NT, but a few of them are known by name only by oral

Church tradition (2 Thess. 2:15).

THE SEVENTY (OSB, ORTHODOX STUDY BIBLE, page 1822 q.v.).
1. Achaicus
2. Agabus
3. Amplias
4. Ananias
5. Andronicus
6. Apelles
7. Apollos
8. Aquila
9. Archippus
10. Aristarchus
11. Aristobulus
12. Artemas
13. Asyncritus
14. Barnabas
15. Caesar
16. Carpus
17. Clement
18. Cephas
19. Cleopas
20. Crescens
21. Crispus
22. Epaphras
23. Epaphroditus
24. Epaenetus
25. Erastus
26. Euodias
27. Fortunatus
28. Gaius
29. Hermas
30. Hermes
31. Herodion
32. James, brother of the Lord
33. Jason
34. Justus
35. Linus
36. Lucius
37. Luke the Evangelist
38. Mark the Evangelist (called John)
39. Mark
40. Narcissus
41. Nicanor
42. Olympias
43. Onesimus
44. Onesiphorus
45. Parmenas
46. Patrobus
47. Philemon
48. Philip the Deacon
49. Philologus
50. Phlegon
51. Prochorus
52. Pudens
53. Quadratus
54. Quartus
55. Rufus
56. Silas (Silvanus)
57. Simeon, son of Cleopas
58. Sosipater
59. Sosthenes
60. Stachys [APPOINTED BY SAINT ANDREW, AS BISHOP OF BYZANTIUM, 38 AD]
61. Stephen the Archdeacon
62. Tertius
63. Thaddaeus
64. Timon
65. Timothy
66. Titus
67. Trophimus
68. Tychicus
69. Urbanus
70. Zenas

God bless these Holy Fathers; Through the Prayers of Our Holy Fathers, LORD JESUS

CHRIST, Son of GOD, have mercy upon us. AMEN AND AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R.

Harrington June 2011 AD

quote=Ramon;477584]I cannot say it better:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were

led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth

Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge

by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of

spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally

as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one

body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles,

whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore

not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore

not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing,

where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased

him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to

the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are

necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we

bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant

comeliness.\

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having

given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the

same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be

honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly

teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of

tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

1 Corinth 12

[/quote]

Dear Ramon: Here is what Romans 16:9 OSB NKJV says: (St.

Paul's Personal Greetings):

"Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my

beloved."

Stachys was bishop of Byzantium after St. Andrew the holy

and blessed First-Called Apostles of Jesus Christ appointed

him to his holy office in 38 AD. For more on Saint Andrew

see: Dvornik, Francis. (1958). The Ideas of Apostolicity In

Byzantium and the Legend of the Apostle Andrew.

Cambridge, MASS: Harvard University Press. Amen.

God bless you, Ramon. Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure

Mother, LORD JESUS CHRIST, Son of GOD, have mercy on all

of us. Amen and Amen. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R.

Harrington

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

Dear Ramon: Here is what Romans 16:9 OSB NKJV says: (St.

Paul's Personal Greetings):

"Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys, my

beloved."

Stachys was bishop of Byzantium after St. Andrew the holy

and blessed First-Called Apostles of Jesus Christ appointed

him to his holy office in 38 AD. For more on Saint Andrew

see: Dvornik, Francis. (1958). The Ideas of Apostolicity In

Byzantium and the Legend of the Apostle Andrew.

Cambridge, MASS: Harvard University Press. Amen.

God bless you, Ramon. Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure

Mother, LORD JESUS CHRIST, Son of GOD, have mercy on all

of us. Amen and Amen. In Erie PA June 2011 AD Scott R.

Harrington

[/QUOTE]

Huh? You loose me man. You just loose me.

Scotth1960 · Jun 26, 2011

Ramon said:

And just what are you talking about????[/quote]
These 70 missionaries were the original apostolic teachers of the Christian Church. They are all listed in the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), and the majority of them are listed in the pages of the NT. You can find their names in any Exhaustive Concordance (STRONG'S) of the KJV Bible. A few of them are not listed in the NT. These are known to Orthodox Church tradition. Their day of commemoration is listed in this page of the OSB. See Luke 10:1-17 and Article in the OSB "THE SEVENTY", on page 1386. If you don't have an OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), you really are probably missing some the true and right interpretations of the OT and NT Holy Scriptures.
God bless you. The best Bibles on the market are the ONT (Orthodox New Testament) of the Holy Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO, in 2 volumes, the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible by Laurent Cleenewerck, currently in process of being published for sale to the public (without a copyright), and the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), just mentioned. Also good are the ESV Oxford Bible with the Apocrypha, and the Expanded edition of 1977 of the New Oxford Annotated Bible, Revised Standard Version, which is accurate EXCEPT for ISAIAH 7:14, which is a faulty translation of the RSV! Take care.
God bless. In Erie Scott H.

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

These 70 missionaries were the original apostolic teachers of the Christian Church. They are all listed in the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), and the majority of them are listed in the pages of the NT. You can find their names in any Exhaustive Concordance (STRONG'S) of the KJV Bible. A few of them are not listed in the NT. These are known to Orthodox Church tradition. Their day of commemoration is listed in this page of the OSB. See Luke 10:1-17 and Article in the OSB "THE SEVENTY", on page 1386. If you don't have an OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), you really are probably missing some the true and right interpretations of the OT and NT Holy Scriptures.
God bless you. The best Bibles on the market are the ONT (Orthodox New Testament) of the Holy Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO, in 2 volumes, the Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible by Laurent Cleenewerck, currently in process of being published for sale to the public (without a copyright), and the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible), just mentioned. Also good are the ESV Oxford Bible with the Apocrypha, and the Expanded edition of 1977 of the New Oxford Annotated Bible, Revised Standard Version, which is accurate EXCEPT for ISAIAH 7:14, which is a faulty translation of the RSV! Take care.
God bless. In Erie Scott H.

[/QUOTE]

Haha. That hasn't helped any.

My friend do you talk to people this way?

zone · Jun 26, 2011

Ramon said:

Hi Ramon

1) i do not worship scripture, that would be idolatry (and ridiculous).

2) studying The Apostolic Age is not speaking against scripture, it is understanding it.

3) did you read the study?

Aristotle · Jun 26, 2011

Amen, the scripture never declaires for the apostle, prophets to have been done away with-only some people today do.

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

zone said:

Amen my friend. It is a very ridiculous thing. My friend, may Jesus bless you much. I can say this because hope is so powerful, ya know?

My friend I love you in the Lord Jesus Christ so very very very much. As ridiculous as it sounds it is very true that people worship scripture. Let me see if I can explain it shortly.

If I sent you a letter that said, ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.'' And I left that as a commandment. Only that and no other scripture, I am sure that there would be 70 different denominations all trying to discern the truth of that one thing as to determine the truth of it. And here is how it would go:

One would say love is this and love is that. And they would also ask, ''who is my neighbor.'' I am sure this whole site could debate these simple words.

It is not about who is right and who is wrong in the end. It is about who has known Love and who hasn't. This is the message of the gospel really. And Jesus hopes that we abide in his love as he abode in his Father's love.

My friend, I love it that you are concerned with understanding. We should all seek for understanding. But if our desire for understanding trumps the desire to love as Christ love, the best we can do is argue and destroy one another.

I know you understand this my friend. I know you do.

May Jesus bless you and keep you.

Scotth1960 · Jun 26, 2011

Ramon said:

Huh? You loose me man. You just loose me.[/quote]

Ramon, Just read Luke 10:1-17. Christ chose 70 missionaries. I just gave you a list of their names from the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible). Isn't it okay and cool that we actually know all the names of the 70 people that JESUS CHRIST CHOSE? Take care.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Ramon, Just read Luke 10:1-17. Christ chose 70 missionaries. I just gave you a list of their names from the OSB (Orthodox Study Bible). Isn't it okay and cool that we actually know all the names of the 70 people that JESUS CHRIST CHOSE? Take care.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

[/QUOTE]

The most I could hope for is that he chose me also. May Jesus bless you.

zone · Jun 26, 2011

Aristotle said:

Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

1 Corinthians 3
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 12
And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

1 Corinthians 12
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 13
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

1 Corinthians 15
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

zone · Jun 26, 2011

Ramon said:

Amen my friend. It is a very ridiculous thing. My friend, may Jesus bless you much. I can say this because hope is so powerful, ya know?

My friend I love you in the Lord Jesus Christ so very very very much. As ridiculous as it sounds it is very true that people worship scripture. Let me see if I can explain it shortly.

If I sent you a letter that said, ''Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.'' And I left that as a commandment. Only that and no other scripture, I am sure that there would be 70 different denominations all trying to discern the truth of that one thing as to determine the truth of it. And here is how it would go:

One would say love is this and love is that. And they would also ask, ''who is my neighbor.'' I am sure this whole site could debate these simple words.

It is not about who is right and who is wrong in the end. It is about who has known Love and who hasn't. This is the message of the gospel really. And Jesus hopes that we abide in his love as he abode in his Father's love.

My friend, I love it that you are concerned with understanding. We should all seek for understanding. But if our desire for understanding trumps the desire to love as Christ love, the best we can do is argue and destroy one another.

I know you understand this my friend. I know you do.

May Jesus bless you and keep you.

may Jesus bless you as well Ramon.

Love for the church, and for the Lord means we keep His words.
and contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints, by the Lord, the Apostles, and the men and women who laid the foundation, and that we help each other to do the same.

love zone.

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

zone said:

Thank you for your kind words.

May Jesus bless you zone.

Aristotle · Jun 26, 2011

Zone, I already know by your post that you dont believe that Jesus has given the apostle, prophet, evengelist, pastor and teacher to the church today, so, ps:I really dont care what you have to say about this topic...was talking to the one who started this post, the one who believes. I believe according to order of the Word of God and through actualy seeing the function of the Word of God in action pertaining to the apostles and prophets and prophecy etc.

But anyway, sorry poster of this thread, there was a non-believer trying to make me not believe what the Word of God says to be true. Poster of this thread would you like to friend me on this website you can. It's always great to talk with a fellow believer.

zone said:

Ramon · Jun 26, 2011

Aristotle said:

Yes my friend, I we can be friends indeed.

My friend, I am learning so much about Jesus, and how much of a fool I was!!! There is a safe place we can be in. A very safe place.

I am learning more and more and more that it is the anointing that destroys the yoke!!! Haven't we all been in the yoke? I am learning that it is not our duty to assume we have all truth figured out. It is better to seek for peace. I am sure there are some things zone can teach me, and some that the Lord has given me that could edify her.

None of what we desire to prove or stand up for matters if it is not the very Love of God that causes it.

We might say that standing up for the truth is counteracting false doctrine, but this is not so. It is compassionate Love, that Jesus displays for us, that we display before others that shows the light of the truth. Now I am returning to peace my friend. Now I am understanding the peace that surpasses ALL understanding.

May Jesus bless you.

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