Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

I don't understand what you're saying. A repeated claim? The verse says and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed, doesn't it? In your opinion, how should that verse be understood?

No, the verse does NOT say that. The Greek word translated "ordained/appointed" is 'tasso'. It literally means to "line up", and the voice is either middle or passive, and can only be determined by the context.

And the context is clear about WHO is doing the lining up for eternal life.

v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

This verse shows that the Gentiles lined themselves up to hear the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

reneweddaybyday said:
God says these gentiles have the work of the law written in their hearts ... which is the conscience.

The work of the law is our natural desire to justify ourselves before God by our own efforts (work) for righteousness.

Let's read the actual verses, to get the real meaning of what the conscience is for.

Rom 2:14,15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

God created mankind with a conscience so that people CAN know right from wrong.

 

[rogerg]

Well, "ordained" has the primary meaning of put in order, to arrange, or to prepare.

What may have been discussed in other threads is of no interest to me. The Bible instructs us that it alone is to be used
as sole authority for interpreting itself, which in effect tells us to not use anything else for that purpose.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So, here is how the Bible uses that word. Obviously, you will interpret it as you will, but as for me, it
means exactly what is obvious in Acts 13:48. The remainder of your post is gobbledygook to me.

[Mat 28:16 KJV]
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

[Luk 7:8 KJV] 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Act 15:2 KJV] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

[Act 22:10 KJV] 10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

[Act 28:23 KJV] 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

[Rom 13:1 KJV] 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

[1Co 16:15 KJV] 15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

 

[rogerg]

od created mankind with a conscience so that people CAN know right from wrong.

Nope. Did you notice the "DO" part"?

[Rom 2:14 KJV] 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

They DO the work of the law driven by work requirements of the law, making that which they do, the law's work.

 

[rogerg]

No, the verse does NOT say that. The Greek word translated "ordained/appointed" is 'tasso'. It literally means to "line up", and the voice is either middle or passive, and can only be determined by the context.

See my prior post to fredoheaven

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
od created mankind with a conscience so that people CAN know right from wrong.

Nope. Did you notice the "DO" part"?

I DID. Sorry you seemed to have missed it.

[Rom 2:14 KJV] 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

This verse tells us that even unbelievers without the writtren Law are able to do the right things (things contained in the law). Which is what I've been saying.

They DO the work of the law driven by work requirements of the law, making that which they do, the law's work.

Could you please provide lucent sentences if you have a point to make?

Paul was teaching that even unbelievers have the ability to "do right".

What is 'contained in the law'? Moral actions, that's what. So even unbelievers can be moral. Even more moral than some believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No, the verse does NOT say that. The Greek word translated "ordained/appointed" is 'tasso'. It literally means to "line up", and the voice is either middle or

See my prior post to fredoheaven

There would be no point. What I have posted is the truth.

What the verse doesn't say is that God chose those Gentiles to believe the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

This verse tells us that even unbelievers without the writtren Law are able to do the right things (things contained in the law). Which is what I've been saying.

No, not just able, must satisfy all requirements perfectly - that's why it is called law.

[Jas 2:10 KJV] 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

[Rom 3:11-13 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

What the verse doesn't say is that God chose those Gentiles to believe the gospel.

Oh, but it does: "ordained" - elected to eternal life

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This verse tells us that even unbelievers without the writtren Law are able to do the right things (things contained in the law). Which is what I've been saying.

No, not just able, must satisfy all requirements perfectly - that's why it is called law.

OK, point to the person who has EVER satisfied all requirements perfectly. Jesus excluded.

Don't be ridiculous. No one has ever kept the law. It wasn't designed to bring eternal life to those who did. No one did.

It was designed to lead us to Christ.

[Jas 2:10 KJV] 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Yep. And everyone is guilty.

[Rom 3:11-13 KJV]
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

Ditto.

Oh, but it does: "ordained" - elected to eternal life

You are in serious need of a lexicon. Tasso is not in the least related to election.

Can you prove your claim from a scholarly source?

 

[fredoheaven]

What may have been discussed in other threads is of no interest to me. The Bible instructs us that it alone is to be used
as sole authority for interpreting itself, which in effect tells us to not use anything else for that purpose.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So, here is how the Bible uses that word. Obviously, you will interpret it as you will, but as for me, it
means exactly what is obvious in Acts 13:48. The remainder of your post is gobbledygook to me.

[Mat 28:16 KJV]
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

[Luk 7:8 KJV] 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Act 15:2 KJV] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

[Act 22:10 KJV] 10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

[Act 28:23 KJV] 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

[Rom 13:1 KJV] 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

[1Co 16:15 KJV] 15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Ummm, you haven't even discussed the verse in questioned. You just try to find other words that are out of the context. That would be very easy to look for other words that may have the same Greek word. Yep, scripture is given by inspiration of God and we need to understand them as the prophets of old, Jesus and the apostle need to be expounded, give sense or explain Neh.8:8, Luke 24:27, Acts 11:4 and so far, I'm still on wait. Thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

No, the verse does NOT say that. The Greek word translated "ordained/appointed" is 'tasso'. It literally means to "line up", and the voice is either middle or passive, and can only be determined by the context.

And the context is clear about WHO is doing the lining up for eternal life.

v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

This verse shows that the Gentiles lined themselves up to hear the gospel.

Ok, they are set to hear the gospel preached by Paul and his company. Thanks for pointing this out in its proper context

 

[fredoheaven]

What may have been discussed in other threads is of no interest to me. The Bible instructs us that it alone is to be used
as sole authority for interpreting itself, which in effect tells us to not use anything else for that purpose.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV] 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So, here is how the Bible uses that word. Obviously, you will interpret it as you will, but as for me, it
means exactly what is obvious in Acts 13:48. The remainder of your post is gobbledygook to me.

[Mat 28:16 KJV]
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

[Luk 7:8 KJV] 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Act 15:2 KJV] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

[Act 22:10 KJV] 10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

[Act 28:23 KJV] 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

[Rom 13:1 KJV] 1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

[1Co 16:15 KJV] 15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and [that] they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

I forgot the passages of scripture whether, ordained, appointed set, addicted does not convey eternity. This didn't suit to a Calvinistic truth by the way.

 

[Magenta]

I forgot the passages of scripture whether, ordained, appointed set, addicted does not convey eternity.

Is that a typo?

 

[rogerg]

OK, point to the person who has EVER satisfied all requirements perfectly. Jesus excluded.

Nobody. That's my point. Nevertheless, the law is still the law. It is in effect regardless of the person's ability to meet it.

It was designed to lead us to Christ.

Those not saved by Christ will be held responsible for meeting its requirements. The law just doesn't go away.

You are in serious need of a lexicon. Tasso is not in the least related to election.

Look how the word is USED in the examples I provided. They exactly match use and intent across the board.

Ditto.

Ditto?
Shoots down your theory that anyone is able to do "good" spiritually speaking, at least not from God's perspective. So, "conscience" is irrelevant since natural man is incapable of grasping/following/achieving the Gospel of himself

Can you prove your claim from a scholarly source?

Yeah, well sources outside the Bible are not to be relied upon as the verses I provided dictate. Are you afraid of the Bible? Apparently so.

Anyway, at this point we're done

 

[rogerg]

I forgot the passages of scripture whether, ordained, appointed set, addicted does not convey eternity. This didn't suit to a Calvinistic truth by the way.

Huh? Appointed to eternal life doesn't convey eternity? Umm, yeah, ok, right!
Anyway, the point of the verses was to show HOW the word was used: that certain outcomes were pre-appointed and occurred in certain situations. Its use in Acts 13:48 perfectly adheres to that usage and matches the other examples. You and Freegrace2 are
definitely grasping at straws at this point. You guys can try to run but you can't hide!

I think I'm about out of patience in discussing this with you anyway.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, they are set to hear the gospel preached by Paul and his company. Thanks for pointing this out in its proper context

 

[FreeGrace2]

fredoheaven said:
I forgot the passages of scripture whether, ordained, appointed set, addicted does not convey eternity.

Is that a typo?

Nope. No typo.

1 Cor 16:15 - You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the Lord’s people. I urge you, brothers and sisters, NIV

King James Bible
I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

Good 'ol KJV.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, point to the person who has EVER satisfied all requirements perfectly. Jesus excluded.

Nobody. That's my point.

Mine as well.

Nevertheless, the law is still the law. It is in effect regardless of the person's ability to meet it.

And you are missing the point.

Those not saved by Christ will be held responsible for meeting its requirements. The law just doesn't go away.

No. Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for all of humanity, even though calvinists do not believe that. He died for everyone.

FreeGrace2 said:
You are in serious need of a lexicon. Tasso is not in the least related to election.

Look how the word is USED in the examples I provided. They exactly match use and intent across the board.

Not even close. Tasso is NEVER used to convey election.

Here is how Luke used 'tasso' in ALL of his uses of it.

“tasso” is found in the following verses, with the various translations:

Matt 28:16 “appointed” ASV, KJV “told to go” NIV “designated” NASB
Jesus told the disciples where to go

Luke 7:8 “under authority” NIV “placed under authority” NASV, NKJV “set under” ASV, KJV
Centurion explaining to Jesus he was a man under authority

Acts 13:48 “appointed” NASB, NIV, NKJV “ordained” KJV, ASV
Believing Gentiles being compared to unbelieving Jews: Jews unworthy, Gentiles devoted

Acts 15:2 “appointed” NIV, ASV “determined” NKJV, NASB, KJV
Paul and Barnabas appointed to go to Jerusalem

Acts 22:10 “assigned” NIV “appointed” NKJV, KJV, NASB, ASV
Paul relating Jesus telling him on Damascus road to go to Damascus and be told his assignment

Acts 28:23 “arranged” NIV “appointed” ASV, KJV, NKJV “set” NASB
People arranged to meet with Paul on a certain day to hear him explain the gospel

Rom 13:1 “established” NIV, NASB “appointed” NKJV “ordained” KJV, ASV
God has established all authorities

1 Cor 16:15 “devoted” NASB, NKJV, NIV “addicted” KJV “set” ASV
Household of Stephanas, first converts in Achaia, devoted themselves to the service of the saints

Only Rom 13:1 and Acts 22:10 connote a theological “appointing” by God

Ditto?

It means "repeat". I was referring to my response to the sentence above.

Shoots down your theory that anyone is able to do "good" spiritually speaking, at least not from God's perspective. So, "conscience" is irrelevant since natural man is incapable of grasping/following/achieving the Gospel of himself

Wow. So you really think one's conscience is irrelevant? Go ahead. But God gave a conscience to everyone so that everyone would be able to discern right from wrong. If you think that's irrelevant, you really shouldn't be opining on a Christian forum.

Yeah, well sources outside the Bible are not to be relied upon as the verses I provided dictate. Are you afraid of the Bible?

The verses yoou provided "dictate"??? Just what do they "dictate" anyway?

More like what you are trying to dictate. Which I reject because the Bible doesn't support your "dictates".

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think I'm about out of patience in discussing this with you anyway.

When a poster knows he can't defend himself or refute the posts of others, this is the typical response.

 

[fredoheaven]

Is that a typo?

No, it was used by the Kjb translators to mean devoted or that is habitually done. God bless