The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Since there will be just TWO resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, the phrase "the hour is coming" refers to the specific time of EACH resurrection.

It would be a mistake to think that John was saying that both resurrections will occur at the same hour. Can't happen if you believe the verses that show when the FIRST resurrection will occur (Rev 20:5) and makes reference to the next one, which is 1,000 years later.

If you can post Scriptures stating what you believe i will accept that. To my understanding Jesus is complete and clear in His Words.

With pleasure.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

In Matt and Luke, Jesus spoke of resurrection in the singular "the".

Paul taught there will be two resurrections in Acts 24:15, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Paul taught that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes". This is the Second Advent.

I will ask this with Scripture :
Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; we have been quickened made live is that not a resurrection?

No, it isn't. There is just ONE resurrection when all believers will be given a glorified body. 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:52,53.

Many people have been brought back to life: Lazarus, widow's son, many at the crucifixion, Dorcas, Euyticus etc. But NONE of these people received a resurrection body. They were revived, not resurrected in the sense of when a believer receives a glorified body.

According to Acts 26:23, Jesus was the first human to receive a glorified body. Then, "when He comes", ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs.

No exceptions. Not even the 2 Witnesses will be resurrected after 3.5 days. They will rise to heaven, but in their physical bodies.

 

[Beckie]

FreeGrace2 said:
Right. Since there will be just TWO resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, the phrase "the hour is coming" refers to the specific time of EACH resurrection.

It would be a mistake to think that John was saying that both resurrections will occur at the same hour. Can't happen if you believe the verses that show when the FIRST resurrection will occur (Rev 20:5) and makes reference to the next one, which is 1,000 years later.

With pleasure.

Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

In Matt and Luke, Jesus spoke of resurrection in the singular "the".

Paul taught there will be two resurrections in Acts 24:15, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Paul taught that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes". This is the Second Advent.


No, it isn't. There is just ONE resurrection when all believers will be given a glorified body. 1 Thess 4, 1 Cor 15:52,53.

Many people have been brought back to life: Lazarus, widow's son, many at the crucifixion, Dorcas, Euyticus etc. But NONE of these people received a resurrection body. They were revived, not resurrected in the sense of when a believer receives a glorified body.

According to Acts 26:23, Jesus was the first human to receive a glorified body. Then, "when He comes", ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs.

No exceptions. Not even the 2 Witnesses will be resurrected after 3.5 days. They will rise to heaven, but in their physical bodies.

Did you not say there are 2 resurrections? The Verse you quoted have nothing to say about the timing.
I read you to believe a thousand years as literal but not the Literal Words of Christ Himself .
We sure have different views of His Word. And i believe we both love the Lord and His Word.

 

[Absolutely]

Unlike yourself, I WILL show you. The second time.

Rev 19-
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

The red words show preparation. Since ch 19 is JUST BEFORE the trip to earth to end the battle, these words are totally inappropriate for a wedding that already occurred 7 years previously.

Do you think all the believers in heaven would wait until the very end of the Trib for the wedding? That makes no sense.

No, these are words of PREPARATION. You can read them any way you want.

We also find the SAME WORDING for what the "armies of heaven" are wearing for the trip to earth:

14 - The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Notice the blue words in v.14 are the same words in v.8. Therefore, they are the same people.

They have prepared for the wedding, and then accompany King Jesus to earth, where obviously the wedding will take place, once all believers have received their glorified bodies, including all the martyred believers (Rev 20:5).


There is no mention of a wife in heaven. It is the Bride who accompanies King Jesus to earth.

This is obvious from the wording.

"""There is no mention of a wife in heaven. It is the Bride who accompanies King Jesus to earth."""

Lol.....because you omitted it.
SMH

REV 19:7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[Absolutely]

Unlike yourself, I WILL show you. The second time.

Rev 19-
7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

The red words show preparation. Since ch 19 is JUST BEFORE the trip to earth to end the battle, these words are totally inappropriate for a wedding that already occurred 7 years previously.

Do you think all the believers in heaven would wait until the very end of the Trib for the wedding? That makes no sense.

No, these are words of PREPARATION. You can read them any way you want.

We also find the SAME WORDING for what the "armies of heaven" are wearing for the trip to earth:

14 - The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Notice the blue words in v.14 are the same words in v.8. Therefore, they are the same people.

They have prepared for the wedding, and then accompany King Jesus to earth, where obviously the wedding will take place, once all believers have received their glorified bodies, including all the martyred believers (Rev 20:5).


There is no mention of a wife in heaven. It is the Bride who accompanies King Jesus to earth.

This is obvious from the wording.

"""There is no mention of a wife in heaven. It is the Bride who accompanies King Jesus to earth."""

Lol.....because you omitted it.
SMH

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[Absolutely]

Sorry.... double post

 

[Absolutely]

Did you not say there are 2 resurrections? The Verse you quoted have nothing to say about the timing.
I read you to believe a thousand years as literal but not the Literal Words of Christ Himself .
We sure have different views of His Word. And i believe we both love the Lord and His Word.

Not only that, but freegrace has to combine 1thes4 with rev20.
The setting of rev 20 is after armageddon and after satan is bound.

Which means there is no resurrection at his coming.
( in the setting of rev 20, it is obvious Jesus has been on earth for some time..days...weeks months...) Because thrones have been established and saints chosen and seated.
(IOW "thrones" depicts a government has been set up)

But the nuclear bomb Prophetically ,is that rev 14 has 2 harvests DURING THE GT.(WHICH prevents the dead rising FIRST as 1thes 4 depicts VIVIDLY) ( if we try to make an erroneous rev 20 resurrection fit postrib)

That alone destroys anything other than a resurrection ( and subsequent rapture)
PRETRIB.
Only pretrib rapture fits.
Nothing else can.

 

[kleronomos]

Good grief man no. There are the 144,000 Israelite preacher commandos, those who believe because of them (exponentially growing "I believed and therefore I spoke"), and themselves testifying. The Bible which will verify the events that are occurring. Angels preaching the eternal gospel from Heaven.

Yes the casualties of the antichrist will be many however Salvation will come to untold multitudes.

I'LL BE HAPPY TO GET TO THAT AS SOON AS you or anyone could answer these questions that are holding back the moving forward to that.

DOES the APOSTASY allow either of these verses to remain TRUTH?

1. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

2. All alive and remaining changed




Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.


Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils they shall speak with new tongues
18 They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

It should be very clear that SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD is where the Lord will be UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.


When does the 'pre trib' take place?

before the command of God for Jesus to sit at the right hand until all enemies his footstool?
before the war in heaven?
during the war in heaven?
after the war in heaven?


Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in alL

 

[kleronomos]

DOES THIS REMAIN TRUTH with what pre trib proposes?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called

(are we to stay the course, run the race, endure to the end as did Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Paul or not? Has God ever taken anyone before the job was completed? If HE did could the claims of being JUST, not a respecter of persons, remaining the same always be TRUTH? Would that open the door to those without a wedding garment receiving eternal life? Would that be acceptable?)

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(PRE TRIB RAPTURE EVEN SEPARATES THE 'CHURCHES/BODY OF CHRIST' AS SOME STAY AND SOME GO,
Isn't that also the exact opposite of what we are commanded to do?)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

(WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT HOPE?
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

(EVEN IN VERSES LIKE THIS THE PRE TRIB IS SHOWN TO BE FALSE BECAUSE THERE COULD BE NO HOPE AFTER PRE TRIB RAPTURE for anyone left on earth.)

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(What are we asking for this doctrine to produce? Just the straight forward words the GOD gives us HIS TRUTHS in. This is how God speaks to us, this is how we know HIS TRUTHS FROM LIES. HIS are written clearly for all to see. When we come this to 'in the air' we clearly see there is no ASCENDING to heaven mentioned at all. And since Christ is coming to sit upon the throne of David, why take those who are to rule and reign with Him on earth, to heaven. Makes no sense.)

9 (Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers


12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,

and of the knowledge of the Son of God,

unto a perfect man,

unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ


'TILL WE ALL COME IN UNITY OF THE FAITH, UNTO A PERFECT MAN'.

THAT IS THE PATH SET BEFORE US, THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THAT IS MADE VOID BY THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.

 

[Absolutely]

Regarding the singular resurrection of the saved, Jesus is described as "firstfruits". That's all. EVERY other reference to "firstfruits" refers to something other than the resurrection of the saved.


OK, so? What do you think this phrase means? Jesus provided redemption for all believers. And all believers are "from the earth".

Try context for a change.

Stop the omissions.

Anybody can see clearly they are in heaven.
At the throne
At the mt sion in heaven.
At the elders.
AT THE 4 CREATURES.
Who WERE Redeemed FROM THE EARTH (PAST TENSE)
Singing a song no other being in heaven or earth can sing.

But further insight reveals the HEAVENLY SCENE IN CONTEXT;

REV 14;
5 And in their mouth was found no guile, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred, and tongue and people,

VIVID unmistakeable scene of heaven

But no, you can not discern it, due to blind obedience to your doctrine.

So you wildly change the words of the book that are forbidden to change.

SMH

 

[Absolutely]

I'LL BE HAPPY TO GET TO THAT AS SOON AS you or anyone could answer these questions that are holding back the moving forward to that.

DOES the APOSTASY allow either of these verses to remain TRUTH?

1. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

2. All alive and remaining changed




Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.


Luke 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils they shall speak with new tongues
18 They shall take up serpents and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

It should be very clear that SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD is where the Lord will be UNTIL HIS ENEMIES ARE MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL.

Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.


When does the 'pre trib' take place?

before the command of God for Jesus to sit at the right hand until all enemies his footstool?
before the war in heaven?
during the war in heaven?
after the war in heaven?


Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in alL

OH NO!!!!
EEEEEK!!!!
E GADDS!!!!
TELL ME IT AINT SO!!!!
NO,NO PLEASE!!!!!

PLEASE DO NOT INSINUATE Jesus left his throne prior to satan chained and defeated in Armageddon.

Keronomos has declared it can not happen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did you not say there are 2 resurrections? The Verse you quoted have nothing to say about the timing.

I didn't say that any verse speaks of timing.

What I did say was that Rev 20 shows the timing between the 2 resurrections, which is 1,000 years.

I read you to believe a thousand years as literal but not the Literal Words of Christ Himself .

The entire Bible is "the mind of Christ", according to Paul, whom I believe. So the words of Scripture are the litearl words of Christ.

1 Cor 2:16 - for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ.

I do take the 1,000 years as literal. There is no reason to take it any other way. Those who claim it is symbolic then have the license to make up whatever they want. The entire chapter reads quite literal and that's the way I understand it.

We sure have different views of His Word. And i believe we both love the Lord and His Word.

I know I sure do. As to haveing different views of the Bible, I use the "Berean Study Method".

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I insert those who make claims instead of "Paul" to see if what they say is true.

If a poster makes claims but doesn't back it up with Scripture that says what the poster claims, I discount what they claim.

If everyone would only stick with what the Word says, we'd all be closer in unity than we are.

But a quick skim of this thread shows that the pretribbers have NO verses that have Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Yet, they hold firmly to that idea, in spite of the fact that there are NO verses that actually tell us that.

So, they make claims that they can't back up.

 

[Absolutely]

DOES THIS REMAIN TRUTH with what pre trib proposes?

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called

(are we to stay the course, run the race, endure to the end as did Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Paul or not? Has God ever taken anyone before the job was completed? If HE did could the claims of being JUST, not a respecter of persons, remaining the same always be TRUTH? Would that open the door to those without a wedding garment receiving eternal life? Would that be acceptable?)

2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(PRE TRIB RAPTURE EVEN SEPARATES THE 'CHURCHES/BODY OF CHRIST' AS SOME STAY AND SOME GO,
Isn't that also the exact opposite of what we are commanded to do?)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

(WHAT ARE WE TOLD ABOUT HOPE?
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

(EVEN IN VERSES LIKE THIS THE PRE TRIB IS SHOWN TO BE FALSE BECAUSE THERE COULD BE NO HOPE AFTER PRE TRIB RAPTURE for anyone left on earth.)

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it)

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

(What are we asking for this doctrine to produce? Just the straight forward words the GOD gives us HIS TRUTHS in. This is how God speaks to us, this is how we know HIS TRUTHS FROM LIES. HIS are written clearly for all to see. When we come this to 'in the air' we clearly see there is no ASCENDING to heaven mentioned at all. And since Christ is coming to sit upon the throne of David, why take those who are to rule and reign with Him on earth, to heaven. Makes no sense.)

9 (Now that He ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers


12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,

and of the knowledge of the Son of God,

unto a perfect man,

unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ


'TILL WE ALL COME IN UNITY OF THE FAITH, UNTO A PERFECT MAN'.

THAT IS THE PATH SET BEFORE US, THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN. THAT IS MADE VOID BY THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOCTRINE.

"""3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(PRE TRIB RAPTURE EVEN SEPARATES THE 'CHURCHES/BODY OF CHRIST' AS SOME STAY AND SOME GO,
Isn't that also the exact opposite of what we are commanded to do?)"""

mat 24
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 25
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The apostle Paul;
2thes 3;
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""There is no mention of a wife in heaven. It is the Bride who accompanies King Jesus to earth."""

Lol.....because you omitted it.
SMH

REV 19:7. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

OK, now you get to explain how a "wife" (meaning already married) "has now made herself ready".

So, ready for what, exactly?

 

[Absolutely]

"""3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
(PRE TRIB RAPTURE EVEN SEPARATES THE 'CHURCHES/BODY OF CHRIST' AS SOME STAY AND SOME GO,
Isn't that also the exact opposite of what we are commanded to do?)"""
There are litterally tons and tons of left behind dynamics.
mat 24
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 25
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The apostle Paul;
2thes 3;
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother

There are literally tons and tons of left behind ,or believers classed and separated in the bible

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not only that, but freegrace has to combine 1thes4 with rev20.
The setting of rev 20 is after armageddon and after satan is bound.

Which means there is no resurrection at his coming.
( in the setting of rev 20, it is obvious Jesus has been on earth for some time..days...weeks months...) Because thrones have been established and saints chosen and seated.
(IOW "thrones" depicts a government has been set up)

But the nuclear bomb Prophetically ,is that rev 14 has 2 harvests DURING THE GT.(WHICH prevents the dead rising FIRST as 1thes 4 depicts VIVIDLY) ( if we try to make an erroneous rev 20 resurrection fit postrib)

That alone destroys anything other than a resurrection ( and subsequent rapture)
PRETRIB.
Only pretrib rapture fits.
Nothing else can.

Once again, only 1 resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, LUKE 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23

That resurrection is actually described as the FIRST of the 2 total resurrections, and Rev 20 is clearly after Jesus ends the battle of Armageddon.

I know you think you are rather clever to point out that different texts don't all include the same exact descriptions. But that's how the Bible was written.

All one who is honest and open does. Compare all the texts and see the whole pattern. It's quite clear.

 

[kleronomos]

OH NO!!!!
EEEEEK!!!!
E GADDS!!!!
TELL ME IT AINT SO!!!!
NO,NO PLEASE!!!!!

PLEASE DO NOT INSINUATE Jesus left his throne prior to satan chained and defeated in Armageddon.

Keronomos has declared it can not happen.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.




Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at HIS DOCTRINE

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.



PRE TRIB, FLY AWAY, LEAVE MEN BEHIND, DON'T DO, DON'T ENDURE TO THE END, DON'T OVERCOME, DON'T STAND, DON'T BE PERSECUTED, DON'T BE AFFLICTED, DON'T BE TEMPTED, DON'T BE DELIVERED UP

BUT DIVIDE THE KINGDOM, DIVIDE THE BODY, DIVIDE WHAT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TOGETHER, MAKE VOID THE WORDS OF GOD,

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Regarding the singular resurrection of the saved, Jesus is described as "firstfruits". That's all. EVERY other reference to "firstfruits" refers to something other than the resurrection of the saved.

OK, so? What do you think this phrase means? Jesus provided redemption for all believers. And all believers are "from the earth".

Try context for a change.

That's what you need to do.

Stop the omissions.

No, I point out the omissions of the pretribbers; that there are NO verses having Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Anybody can see clearly they are in heaven.
At the throne
At the mt sion in heaven.
At the elders.
AT THE 4 CREATURES.
Who WERE Redeemed FROM THE EARTH (PAST TENSE)
Singing a song no other being in heaven or earth can sing.

Again, every soul in heaven got there through physical death. Not real complex to understand.

So you wildly change the words of the book that are forbidden to change.

What you can't do is prove your own wild charge that I have changed anything in the Bible.

So I dare you to prove your ridiculous claim.

I expect crickets.

 

[Absolutely]

OK, now you get to explain how a "wife" (meaning already married) "has now made herself ready".

So, ready for what, exactly?

better yet, tell me why you omitted it to make your erroneous doctrine stay afloat but listing dangerously.

You changed it.
It must hurt your theory, for you to omit it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are literally tons and tons of left behind ,or believers classed and separated in the bible

Please prove your as of yet very empty claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
OK, now you get to explain how a "wife" (meaning already married) "has now made herself ready".

So, ready for what, exactly?

better yet, tell me why you omitted it to make your erroneous doctrine stay afloat but listing dangerously.

Sure, just ignore my question, because you know you can't answer it intelligently.

You changed it.

So you change the subject. But I won't let you. You need to explain how a "wife" which is an already married lady, is making herself ready for the wedding supper.

[QUTOE]It must hurt your theory, for you to omit it.[/QUOTE]
You are full of empty charges and claims, but you are quite empty of any evidence that supports these empty charges and claims.