Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[Amanuensis]

Mal 2:12: "The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts."

Mat 7:13: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

That's your "majority" of "scholar".

I think that you will find that the majority who are on the broad road are those who do not believe in eternal punishment for the wicked. The majority of evangelical scholars do, therefore they are not the ones on the broad road.

If you think about it those that believe that the wicked will simply go out of conscious awareness and therefore not have to suffer eternal punishment would be in the company of those who don't believe they will suffer for their sins because when they die they will know nothing. I see very little difference between those two views.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I think that you will find that the majority who are on the broad road are those who do not believe in eternal punishment for the wicked. The majority of evangelical scholars do, therefore they are not the ones on the broad road.

If you think about it those that believe that the wicked will simply go out of conscious awareness and therefore not have to suffer eternal punishment would be in the company of those who don't believe they will suffer for their sins because when they die they will know nothing. I see very little difference between those two views.

You, as many, confuse suffering (torment, limited unto finality) and finality (2nd death; eternal).

Jesus suffered torment unto death. He "once suffered".

 

[Phoneman-777]

Because like any other discipline or branch of science you will have someone with a different opinion than the most. However the majority of Hebrew and Greek scholars can and HAVE made a more excellent case for how the words translated destruction can be used as in a judgment context. Having neither root nor branch is obviously a declaration about their inheritance and families and those things that were important to the mindset of the people at that time.

I like how you allow consensus to determine truth. Did you forget that in Noah's day, the crowd drowned? Or, in Lot's day, the crowd burned up? Or in Jesus' day, the crowd yelled "Crucify Him"? Or, during the Dark Ages, the "official" church put to death between 50 - 150 MILLION saints? What about the Sabbath? The crowd says Sunday is God's new day without one single verse in Scripture authorizing it.

Jesus brought an even fuller revelation of the eternal state of the damned and made it clear to everyone who reads the bible that there is an eternal torment

Where?

and a fire that is never quenched

Jerusalem was burned with fire that "shall never be quenched". Is Jerusalem still burning today? Is Sodom and Gomorrah? Can a fire that is not quenched burn itself out? Are the wicked going to simply "burn" or "burn UP" which means "burn until there's nothing left to burn"? WORDS MEAN THINGS.

any end to this would not be what Jesus articulated and no amount of attempts to make Jesus mean something else has been successful except from the perspective of the minority who want to believe a certain thing to calm their troubled minds over the horror of eternal torment.

"Calm" minds? No. Clear God of the accusation that He will do to those for which He shed His blood something that only Satan would do? Yes. And, try to convince people to seek Jesus instead of seeking fire insurance? Yes.

They simply cannot reconcile the "punishment fits the crime" with this concept because they don't have a Godly view of sin and the punishment that it deserves

Let me ask you: why don't civilized people torture our criminals, even to death? The bottom line is civilized man has concluded that torture as a penalty for a crime - no matter how grievous - is not just. When Job asks, "Shall mortal man be more just than God?" you Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd folks need just own it and say "yes".

They think that it is cruel for "good" people to suffer such a thing and therefore they want them to go to sleep forever instead, so they come up these explanations and some of their thoughts do come from thoughts borrowed by ancient Jews who also had a problem with the idea of eternal punishment, since the natural man has always had a problem seeing the just judgment of a holy God and always will these annihilation doctrines will continue to be taught as they always have. It is only the converted and regenerated that will say "even so, come Lord Jesus"

Instead of trying to assign motive, who not just answer the Scriptural arguments?

How can the people in Luke 16 have resurrection bodies before the resurrection has even taken place?
How can the fire be punishing now those who are "reserved" for that punishment "at the end of the world"?
How can a murderer have eternal torment if "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him"?
How can it be claimed that the "soul" is immortal when Jesus "only hath immortality"?
How can the dead be said to be conscious when Scripture says they know/feel/remember/praise nothing?
How can the soul continue to exist after death when it exists only as long as the spirit and body are united?
How can torment continue for eternity when "the former things are passed away"?
How can the wicked abide forever in the Lake of Fire when only "he that doeth the will of God abideth forever"?

 

[Amanuensis]

No, there is no eternal torment in scripture. There is only limited torment unto the second death (annihilation). Torment is not the wages of sin, the second death is, but limited torment exists along the way to the final end (2nd death).

God is long suffering with the wicked, not eternally suffering them.

The flood of Noah is the type that matches the antitype.

Now, you use the word "souls", and you teach that 'it' "leaves the body at death". You also teach that these "souls" are also in heaven (or hell), and without bodies.

So, what will you do with these scriptures, according to your theology?


Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, [both] of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Numbers 31:28

Cows [beeves, bovine], asses and sheep are "souls".

Is this an isolated case, or is this noted through all of scripture? It is throughout scripture:


And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. Revelation 16:3

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Acts 17:25

In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Job 12:10

But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat. Leviticus 22:11
See Joshua 10, in every instance where it is written that Joshua destroyed "all the souls that were therein":


"...he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:28

"...he smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain in it..." Joshua 10:30

"...and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein..." Joshua 10:32

"...smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that were therein he utterly destroyed that day..." Joshua 10:35

And they took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof, and all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but destroyed it utterly, and all the souls that were therein. Joshau 10:37

"And he took it, and the king thereof, and all the cities thereof; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls that were therein; he left none remaining..." Joshua 10:39

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

...just as Joshua did to Jericho, so he did to those cities, "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." Joshua 6:21

...just as Joshua did to Haxor, so he did to those cities, "And they smote all the souls that were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire." Joshua 11:11

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Job 12:8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Help me out here, why don'tcha. Don't you know of any cases of creatures that have died and come back to life ( Dog brought back to life after being dead for 10 minutes, owner says )? Were they floating around somewhere too? According to your theology, the religion of the 'native Americans' and their spirit guides, and those of Japan, and other animists, etc are truth according to your theology in the conclusion it must bring.

With such an text as this, surely everyone goes to Heaven:


Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Did you know that those who hold to such teachings as you do, in the occult world, teach that very thing? They teach that Hitler and PolPot and all the Criminals of the world are in Heaven, and some even teach that they are in higher or more exalted positions than Jesus.

Why not take a moment to really think about all the conclusions your theology teaches.

The old man of sin. Can it ever die? According to your theology, No. You have 'immortalized' it through such theology. A powerless Gospel, no victory over sin, for the old man for ever remains alive somewhere because you teach that thoughts do not ever really perish.

It just seems like you are using a bunch of cherry picked verses to teach something these authors never intended.

Jesus brought a fuller revelation of what happens when we die. But He did not reveal everything, only what He wanted us to know for now. Don't attempt to understand those verses you are using without Jesus fuller revelation and without acknowledging that Jesus brought more understanding about the state of the wicked and righteous dead and their futures.

I understand all those verses you have posted in their context and the intended meaning of the author who wrote it in its original context. If you focus on that (Exegesis) you will not be confused and will 1) recognize where your teachers made their mistakes, 2) discover that there is no need to invent a view of the after life that none of these verses were meant to teach. and 3) by comparing them with what Jesus and the New Testament writers said you will recognize where some of the OT verses were simply men expressing their limited ideas not an attempt to teach what really happens to the wicked or righteous dead, such as Ecc.

Whereas others in the OT did hint at a place of torment for the wicked dead. For example: For the discerning the path of life leads upward, so that he may avoid going down to Sheol.

Jesus brought a fuller revelation of what happens when we die. But He did not reveal everything, only what He wanted us to know for now. Don't attempt to understand those verses you are using without Jesus fuller revelation and without acknowledging that Jesus brought more understanding about the state of the wicked and righteous dead and their futures.

 

[Phoneman-777]

No, there is no eternal torment in scripture. There is only limited torment unto the second death (annihilation). Torment is not the wages of sin, the second death is, but limited torment exists along the way to the final end (2nd death).

God is long suffering with the wicked, not eternally suffering them.

The flood of Noah is the type that matches the antitype.

If the wages of sin is "eternal torment" the only way for us to escape that punishment is for JESUS to be eternally tormented, end of story.

That's why the Bible doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment - it says those wages are death, which is exactly what Jesus suffered.

 

[Amanuensis]

You, as many, confuse suffering (torment, limited unto finality) and finality (2nd death; eternal).

Jesus suffered torment unto death. He "once suffered".

I have not found it difficult to find great examples from those who are expert in Greek who can explain what Jesus said in these passages and using any of the best English Translations I believe we can be confident that Jesus meant what he said.

And even if someone like yourself tried to confuse someone with a particular word or two, the over all message cannot be ignored.

42“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’

And I will not post all the verses that Jesus said about hell and eternal punishment as it would probably exceed the word limit, but there is so much context involved that it is impossible not to understand his message.

And it was never that the wicked dead will eventually get a break of eternal unconsciousness or non existence. It is impossible to get that in anything Jesus intended his disciples to understand from his words.

This was one of the ideas of the ancient Jews like the Sadducees, (that the wicked go out of existence) but Jesus shocked them all with the revelation that they don't just go out of existence, they suffer forever. That was one of the things that Jesus taught that was NEW, and that was MORE than what they understood before. You keep going back to limited knowledge and the imperfect knowledge that the Sadducees and others thought and ignore what Jesus brought to the table.

 

[Amanuensis]

If the wages of sin is "eternal torment" the only way for us to escape that punishment is for JESUS to be eternally tormented, end of story.

That's why the Bible doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment - it says those wages are death, which is exactly what Jesus suffered.

That is not all that the bible says. It also says...

42“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] b 45And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] c 47And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’ d

And so as Life was in the blood and Jesus blood was received as propitiation for our sins, and the lamb on the altars under the Levitical system did not have to suffer forever, your argument makes no sense to anyone but yourself. The blood paid for your sin, not just the death, you are attempting to present an argument based on your own faulty imaginations with no theological application to the sacrificial system and the lamb who takes away the sin of the world. You greatly err. Because you don't understand the scriptures or the power of God to forgive sins based on the sacrifice of His blood and are making a statement about the necessity for eternal suffering that does not apply to the revelation of redemption.
That Jesus clearly taught the everlasting torment of the wicked dead does not mean that they pay for their sins. They are not paying for their redemption. They are receiving the Lake of Fire which is the eternal place of the damned and has nothing to do with paying for their redemption.

 

[justbyfaith]

It should be clear that what awaits the unredeemed soul is everlasting punishment in the form of everlasting fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

We are told in holy scripture to disregard any teaching that would cause us to go astray from these words of knowledge.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

It just seems like you are using a bunch of cherry picked verses to teach something these authors never intended.

Ahh, so your rebuttal is hand-waving based upon your subjective opinion ("seems like"). Got it.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

It should be clear that what awaits the unredeemed soul is everlasting punishment in the form of everlasting fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 25:46; Matthew 25:41; Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

We are told in holy scripture to disregard any teaching that would cause us to go astray from these words of knowledge.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

The punishment is 2nd death. Yes it is eternal. God (is the ultimate) "eternal fire", because He is love, a consuming (to sin) fire. Yet the fire that destroys wicked is a fire that only lasts until it accomplishes it's task (to pur to aiwnion). There is torment, as stated, but limited for when death (2nd) occurs the torment ceases.,


Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται

Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι

Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.

In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14 KJB.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yet the fire that destroys wicked is a fire that only lasts until it accomplishes it's task (to pur to aiwnion).

It is everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41).

See also Proverbs 30:16; Isaiah 33:14.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’ d

Here are the texts:

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[context:] Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 66:24 does not say anything about 'eternal torment'. It doesn't even say anything about 'torment'. The context of vs 24 is connected to vs 23, which speaks of the New Heaven and New Earth which lasts forever. What is amazing, is that you attempted to connect these verses to Revelation 20:10-15 (and rightly so), but notice where the wicked are all at in Revelation 20:7-9:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

They are all upon the earth. There can be no 'eternal torment' here, as God, must create the New Heavens and New Earth where they are all standing, after the fire devours them, unto ashes.

Isaiah 66:24 states, "carcasses", which are dead bodies. They are not alive, and not tormented as a carcase. You can see that, by looking at every use of the word "carcass" in scripture (KJB), or even in Webster's 1828, etc. The righteous (Revelation 20) will see those dead bodies, as returned unto "ashes" (Jeremiah 31:40; Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3). They were 'tormented' in time, for however long their punishment was to be, as their works were, and brought to ashes. That their "fire" (not torment) is not "quenched" (a verb, meaning: to put out, see Numbers 11:2; Hebrews 11:34) doesn't mean their torment does not come to an end. It speaks to the enduring fire that they cannot put out. It will continue to burn them until they are ashes. Isaiah is using imagery from the destruction of Jerusalem, and Mark and Revelation from those texts. The "unquenchable fire" (2 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 34:25; Isaiah 34:10; Jeremiah 7:20, 17:27; Ezekiel 20:48) is also used to burn sinful Jerusalem to the ground, unto ashes. It sits as the type, to the anti-type coming.

In attempting to say that Isaiah 66:24 shows eternal torment, you have confused 'torment' with 'fire', at the very minimum, and confused 'unquenchable' with 'eternal'.

The next text is based upon Jesus quoting from Isaiah 66:24, in several places (Mark 9:43-48)

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Again, please notice, that the texts (Mark 9:43-48) say nothing about 'eternal torment'. The texts do not even say anything 'directly' about "torment", though it is implied. However, the 'torment' implied is limited, not eternal here. Again, it is the "fire" that is not "quenched" (not put out), not the "torment". It is their "worm" which "dieth not". The texts do not say they are eternally in this 'torment', and especially cannot be, when connected to Isaiah 66:23-24, and Revelation 20:9-15, as God creates a New Heaven and New Earth where all the wicked are burned up unto "ashes". Their "torment" lasts as long as is properly determined according to the works (God is Just, not unjust), and then they perish therein. The fire was never quenched, for no one will put it out. They suffered until they died, just as Jesus upon the Cross. Jesus suffered for all sin. It is not an eternal suffering. The wages of sin is death (2nd), not eternal suffering. Suffering is only a portion (temporality, the road) unto that death (finality, destination).

Again, in attempting to say that Mark 9:43-48 shows eternal torment, you have confused 'torment' with 'fire', at the very minimum, and confused 'unquenchable' with 'eternal'. Again, as sinful Jerusalem was the type, it too was burned with unquenchable fire, and no one could put out the fire, and yet it is not still burning. Once the fire burns all that it can, it goes out of itself, as only ashes remain. It was unquenchable, not eternal.

 

[justbyfaith]

Here are the texts:

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[context:] Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 66:24 does not say anything about 'eternal torment'.

That "their fire shall not be quenched" indicates eternal torment.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

It is everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41).

See also Proverbs 30:16; Isaiah 33:14.

Again, you are incorrectly defining the fire. The finality of which the fire brings, results in the second death (annihilation), which is eternal punishment (not punishing). The fire itself is aiwnion. I just showed that to you, that aiwns can and do begin and end.

Proverbs 30:16 speaks of fire in general, in that a fire will burn so long as it obtains fuel, for a fire's 'hunger' is never satisfied. It does not say that the fire is eternal of itself there.

You completely took Isaiah 33:14 out of context. The ones who dwell with "everlasting burnings" is answered in Isaiah 33:15 - the righteous (not the wicked). The righteous dwell with God, who is love, an eternal consuming fire.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

That "their fire shall not be quenched" indicates eternal torment.

No it means they cannot put out (quench) the fire.

Isa 47:14: "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it."

The torment of the fire lasts until they are burnt up into smoke and ashes. The fire once consumed all flammable materials goes out on its own. No one quenched it, just like Jerusalem of old.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

That Jesus clearly taught the everlasting torment of the wicked dead does not mean that they pay for their sins. They are not paying for their redemption. They are receiving the Lake of Fire

LOF Context:

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?


Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:


Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.


[see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]


Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:


Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

λίμνη limnē

Total KJB Occurrences: 10

lake, 10


Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;
Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8

See also the alternate word for "sea":

G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

θάλασσα thalassa

Total KJB Occurrences: 95

sea, 93


Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1

red [sea], 2


Act_7:36, Heb_11:29

Do you believe?

Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by the fire/lake of fire?


Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?

Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?

If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?

Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?

Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, you are incorrectly defining the fire. The finality of which the fire brings, results in the second death (annihilation), which is eternal punishment (not punishing). The fire itself is aiwnion. I just showed that to you, that aiwns can and do begin and end.

Proverbs 30:16 speaks of fire in general, in that a fire will burn so long as it obtains fuel, for a fire's 'hunger' is never satisfied. It does not say that the fire is eternal of itself there.

You completely took Isaiah 33:14 out of context. The ones who dwell with "everlasting burnings" is answered in Isaiah 33:15 - the righteous (not the wicked). The righteous dwell with God, who is love, an eternal consuming fire.

No, in Isaiah 33:14-15 the righteous, his waters shall be sure (v.16). Which indicates a quenching of the fire.

Those who are cast into everlasting fire, also have wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

Looking at Proverbs 30:16, compare it to Revelation 14:9-11. The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever; which indicates that they never completely burn up.

 

[justbyfaith]

The torment of the fire lasts until they are burnt up into smoke and ashes.

See above post.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

If you think about it those that believe that the wicked will simply go out of conscious awareness and therefore not have to suffer eternal punishment would be in the company of those who don't believe they will suffer for their sins because when they die they will know nothing. I see very little difference between those two views.

That is because you straw-manned my position. I said the unrepentant will suffer torment unto their death for the deeds done (God is just). I never said, neither implied that the unrepentant simply "go out of conscious awareness".

Again, "death" (2nd) is the eternal punishment. Torment (fiery) takes place unto that destination/end.

The two positions are not the same.

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Looking at Proverbs 30:16, compare it to Revelation 14:9-11. The smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever; which indicates that they never completely burn up.

Ok, the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". This does not deal with 'time', but 'distance' [height, ascending up to heaven]. The smoke goes "up" forever and ever. In otherwords, up and out of sight into the stratosphere.:


For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9

It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10

See:


And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11

See also:


And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9

And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3

We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:


And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. Genesis 19:28

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:9

As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. Jeremiah 49:18

As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. Jeremiah 50:40

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Luke 17:29

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:6

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.

We may also compare to the destruction of the city of Ai:


And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers. Joshua 8:20

And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai. Joshua 8:21

We may also compare in the book of Judges:


Now there was an appointed sign between the men of Israel and the liers in wait, that they should make a great flame with smoke rise up out of the city. Judges 20:38

But when the flame began to arise up out of the city with a pillar of smoke, the Benjamites looked behind them, and, behold, the flame of the city ascended up to heaven. Judges 20:40

Elsewhere:


For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18

We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18