Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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Anyone can read what Jesus said for themselves and most people understand it just fine. In real life I have never had anyone not understand it. I never meet people who don't get what Jesus said.
These threads are not what most people think. I suppose most pastors could minister in a city for 40 years and never once meet someone in their church that thinks that Jesus mean that the torment of the wicked ends.
Therefore I don't really care to argue about it as though it is a real issue we are dealing with that needs and answer.
God is the everlasting fire in Isaiah 33. See vs 17, "see the king in his beauty", 21, "glorious". Isaiah 33:14 asks a question. Vs 15 answers that question. There is no quenching in Isaiah 33. Only the righteous are able to dwell with God (everlasting burnings), and they receive of God their "bread" and "water", during God's judgement of the wicked, which are consumed, see vs 11-12.
Keep reading and only the righteous remain, while all wickedness is eradicated for good.
Keep reading and only the righteous remain, while all wickedness is eradicated for good.
Soul is the whole person (including flesh).
Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Num_19:22 And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.
"spirit" is simply the heart/mind:
Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The spirit with which God breathed into the formed dust of the earth, making man a living soul, is His [God's] spirit, not theirs:
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15
Man is the dust, which is animated, made alive, quickened, by the spirit/breath of the Living God and that which animated us, the breath/spirit of the Living God returns unto Him at death. We derive life from Him.
The 'heart' of man, the mind of man, the thoughts of man that make up the character/personality, which when he dies, temporarily ceases to be, except as God knows all of us, and as written in Heaven's record books, now notice Hebrew Parallelisms and Chiasms:
And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments. Exodus 35:21
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. Deuteronomy 2:30
And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel. Joshua 5:1
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Psalms 34:18
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Psalms 51:10
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalms 51:17
I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. Psalms 77:6
And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God. Psalms 78:8
Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate. Psalms 143:4
A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken. Proverbs 15:13
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. Proverbs 17:22
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. Ecclesiastes 1:17
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. Isaiah 65:14
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:19
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 18:31
And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 21:17
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Mark 2:8
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 1 Peter 3:4
And thus the "spirit" of man, the "heart" of man is connected with reasoning and thoughts, 1 Chronicles 28:9; Matthew 9:4; Luke 2:35, 5:22, 24:38; Romans 2:15 and so on. These things cease in death:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
And this is how the dead "know" "not anything" and there is no longer any emotion, knowledge, wisdom, etc:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10
And they cannot "know", nor "perceive":
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21
Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Num_19:22 And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.
"spirit" is simply the heart/mind:
Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The spirit with which God breathed into the formed dust of the earth, making man a living soul, is His [God's] spirit, not theirs:
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; Job 34:14
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. Job 34:15
Man is the dust, which is animated, made alive, quickened, by the spirit/breath of the Living God and that which animated us, the breath/spirit of the Living God returns unto Him at death. We derive life from Him.
The 'heart' of man, the mind of man, the thoughts of man that make up the character/personality, which when he dies, temporarily ceases to be, except as God knows all of us, and as written in Heaven's record books, now notice Hebrew Parallelisms and Chiasms:
And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments. Exodus 35:21
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day. Deuteronomy 2:30
And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel. Joshua 5:1
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Psalms 34:18
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Psalms 51:10
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psalms 51:17
I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search. Psalms 77:6
And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God. Psalms 78:8
Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate. Psalms 143:4
A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken. Proverbs 15:13
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. Proverbs 17:22
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. Ecclesiastes 1:17
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isaiah 57:15
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. Isaiah 65:14
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:19
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 18:31
And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 21:17
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Mark 2:8
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 1 Peter 3:4
And thus the "spirit" of man, the "heart" of man is connected with reasoning and thoughts, 1 Chronicles 28:9; Matthew 9:4; Luke 2:35, 5:22, 24:38; Romans 2:15 and so on. These things cease in death:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4
And this is how the dead "know" "not anything" and there is no longer any emotion, knowledge, wisdom, etc:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10
And they cannot "know", nor "perceive":
His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21
It deals with the very heart of God's own character.
Your doctrine makes God the sustainer of sin and sinners (perpetuating their existence and torment), and makes God to be a sadistic unyielding tyrant who will not be satisfied with any amount of torment in all eternity, and makes of a finite and mortal being, as fallen and unrepentant man, immortal and eternal.
The doctrine of scripture of which I espouse, shows God is both Just and Merciful (the wicked suffer for their deeds done in the body, and then have an end to their existence, for God honours their choice to be eternally separated from all that is Life).
One is a monster of which is after satan's character, and the other after the righteous character of Jesus.
Your doctrine makes God the sustainer of sin and sinners (perpetuating their existence and torment), and makes God to be a sadistic unyielding tyrant who will not be satisfied with any amount of torment in all eternity, and makes of a finite and mortal being, as fallen and unrepentant man, immortal and eternal.
The doctrine of scripture of which I espouse, shows God is both Just and Merciful (the wicked suffer for their deeds done in the body, and then have an end to their existence, for God honours their choice to be eternally separated from all that is Life).
One is a monster of which is after satan's character, and the other after the righteous character of Jesus.
Not only do I believe in hellfire, but it's WAY hotter than yours 
Yours will only smolder the wicked for all eternity, but Biblical hellfire will completely "burn them up", says Malachi, and will "leave them neither root nor branch" which all commentators agree - even those who believe in your never-ending hellfire - that this was a proverb among the Hebrews that meant "complete and total destruction".
Bro, can you please give ear to what experts on the other side of the issue have to say? Are they not as authoritative concerning Greek and Hebrew as are those who preach Eternal Torment? Please listen to "Translation of the NT in Modern Speech" author Dr. R. F. Weymouth's comment:
Yours will only smolder the wicked for all eternity, but Biblical hellfire will completely "burn them up", says Malachi, and will "leave them neither root nor branch" which all commentators agree - even those who believe in your never-ending hellfire - that this was a proverb among the Hebrews that meant "complete and total destruction".Bro, can you please give ear to what experts on the other side of the issue have to say? Are they not as authoritative concerning Greek and Hebrew as are those who preach Eternal Torment? Please listen to "Translation of the NT in Modern Speech" author Dr. R. F. Weymouth's comment:
"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses signifying to "destroy" or "destruction" are translated to mean, "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence". To translate "black" as "white" is nothing to this. By "perish", the apostle (John) means "pass out of existence"...
"The use in the NT of such words as "death", "destruction", "fire", "perish" to describe Future Retribution point to the likelihood of fearful anguish followed by extinction of being".
Revelation 18
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Some of the people here are simply gambling on eternity. They would rather believe that hell and the lake of fire does not = everlasting torments....and why? Perhaps because they either know they are going there or because they desire to live a lifestyle that would be deserving of going there; and therefore they desire to downplay the punishment that they know that they are going to receive. It "tickles their ears" to believe that they will merely be annihilated or that everyone goes to heaven in the long run (2 Timothy 4:3).
However, that is not sound doctrine.
However, that is not sound doctrine.
.
That is a confusion of words (even languages), and places. Go back and reread the two OT texts I provided, Genesis 2:7; Numbers 19:22. The words and context are entirely different. All you did was shift the goalpost (again). You simply changed venues and pretended context doesn't matter.
Paul uses three koine Greek words:
Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη
1. πνεῦμα - mind/intellect (IQ)
2. ψυχὴ - heart/emotional (EQ)
3. σῶμα - flesh/DNA
Both 1 and 2, would be like the OT version of 'hearts' and 'reins'. The mind/intellect and heart/emotion.
You were deliberately not careful with context. What you did was like taking the American English word, "boot" or "napkin" and trying to use them in the exact same meaning in European English, such as Britain or Australia.
That is a confusion of words (even languages), and places. Go back and reread the two OT texts I provided, Genesis 2:7; Numbers 19:22. The words and context are entirely different. All you did was shift the goalpost (again). You simply changed venues and pretended context doesn't matter.
Paul uses three koine Greek words:
Αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης ἁγιάσαι ὑμᾶς ὁλοτελεῖς καὶ ὁλόκληρον ὑμῶν τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ ψυχὴ καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀμέμπτως ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τηρηθείη
1. πνεῦμα - mind/intellect (IQ)
2. ψυχὴ - heart/emotional (EQ)
3. σῶμα - flesh/DNA
Both 1 and 2, would be like the OT version of 'hearts' and 'reins'. The mind/intellect and heart/emotion.
You were deliberately not careful with context. What you did was like taking the American English word, "boot" or "napkin" and trying to use them in the exact same meaning in European English, such as Britain or Australia.
that's the same word Christ uses in Matthew 10:28 -- haven't you argued that it means "soul" there?
and in Matthew 22:37 & Mark 12:30 Christ quotes Deuteronomy 6:5 ((see above)) -- there He uses ψυχὴ as a direct translation for the Hebrew "nephesh" = "soul"
guess what word the Septuagint uses to translate the Hebrew "nephesh" in Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, etc etc etc oh yeah also Genesis 2:7?
if you would be an honest man, you need to change your vote.
and in Matthew 22:37 & Mark 12:30 Christ quotes Deuteronomy 6:5 ((see above)) -- there He uses ψυχὴ as a direct translation for the Hebrew "nephesh" = "soul"
guess what word the Septuagint uses to translate the Hebrew "nephesh" in Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, etc etc etc oh yeah also Genesis 2:7?
if you would be an honest man, you need to change your vote.
no
go look at Deuteronomy 6:5 again; don't dismiss it.
God-manifest-in-the-flesh says it is the foundation of Torah.
it's no least-verse.
LXX translates Hebrew "heart" as "καρδία"
NT passages that quote the OT use this word for Hebrew לֵבָב ((heart))
you are trying to pull the wool here. you're wrong.
only the ignorant or willfully blind believe your argument, no matter how prosaic.
go look at Deuteronomy 6:5 again; don't dismiss it.
God-manifest-in-the-flesh says it is the foundation of Torah.
it's no least-verse.
LXX translates Hebrew "heart" as "καρδία"
NT passages that quote the OT use this word for Hebrew לֵבָב ((heart))
you are trying to pull the wool here. you're wrong.
only the ignorant or willfully blind believe your argument, no matter how prosaic.
Peter the punishment of the wicked in hellfire is reserved for future. Could it be when the wicked surround the city and "fire came down from God out of heaven and destroyed them all", that this fire is the "hellfire" Peter says will burn up the wicked in the future?
Can you see how dovetailed the Conditionalist view is? The only "proof text" you have of hellfire burning right now is a parabolic passage you insist is literal, though making it literal introduces a host of contradictions to the mix.
Peter says hellfire is future. Jesus said hellfire is future.
Can you see how dovetailed the Conditionalist view is? The only "proof text" you have of hellfire burning right now is a parabolic passage you insist is literal, though making it literal introduces a host of contradictions to the mix.
Peter says hellfire is future. Jesus said hellfire is future.
Yes one verse which contradicts many other verses if you take it literal.
Some people want to believe a lie.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Some people want to believe a lie.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: