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Dear studentoftheword,
Your beliefs are contradicted by the verses I posted. With your understanding, man's supposed "free will" is out of God's control and He must be on plan B, C, D, ... and so on and so on. But God is not like mankind and never makes mistakes nor does His desires go unfulfilled.
There are no verses of scripture that say mankind has a "free will". In fact, there are many verses which say just the opposite. God is in full control of mankind's "will" and we have no ability to do differently. Look at the verses below. Can't you see that they contradict what you believe?
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
1 Cor 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Joe
Your beliefs are contradicted by the verses I posted. With your understanding, man's supposed "free will" is out of God's control and He must be on plan B, C, D, ... and so on and so on. But God is not like mankind and never makes mistakes nor does His desires go unfulfilled.
There are no verses of scripture that say mankind has a "free will". In fact, there are many verses which say just the opposite. God is in full control of mankind's "will" and we have no ability to do differently. Look at the verses below. Can't you see that they contradict what you believe?
Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
Exd 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
1 Cor 1:28-29 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Joe
Do you mean as in, why does God allow it?[/QUOT
Interesting, do you actually believe in “free will”?
Are you addressing your comment to me?
I don't believe mankind has a free will. God is in full control of everything that happens within His creation. Mankind can do nothing apart from God "causing" it to happen. God never just "allows" anything to happen.
Joe
Dear BillHeath,
Are you addressing your comment to me?
I don't believe mankind has a free will. God is in full control of everything that happens within His creation. Mankind can do nothing apart from God "causing" it to happen. God never just "allows" anything to happen.
Joe
Are you addressing your comment to me?
I don't believe mankind has a free will. God is in full control of everything that happens within His creation. Mankind can do nothing apart from God "causing" it to happen. God never just "allows" anything to happen.
Joe
One issue though. God does cause things to happen though either by passive( allowing) or active decisions
I recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read post #3 where I present the "big picture" for this creation. Nothing happens in this creation that is not God's "will". He causes all things to happen. He never just allows anything to happen that is not in accordance with His "will".
I read your profile and saw that you said you were saved at age 12. I assume you are associating water baptism with salvation? Is that right?
I was baptized in water at age 12 also, but I was not saved at that time. I was baptized again at age 29 and was not saved at that time either. I was baptized again at age 43 and again, I was not saved at that time. It wasn't until I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit at age 44 that I was "born again". I have my conversion testimony posted in my profile that presents the events that led up to my salvation.
Joe
Dear BillHeath,
I recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read post #3 where I present the "big picture" for this creation. Nothing happens in this creation that is not God's "will". He causes all things to happen. He never just allows anything to happen that is not in accordance with His "will".
I read your profile and saw that you said you were saved at age 12. I assume you are associating water baptism with salvation? Is that right?
I was baptized in water at age 12 also, but I was not saved at that time. I was baptized again at age 29 and was not saved at that time either. I was baptized again at age 43 and again, I was not saved at that time. It wasn't until I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit at age 44 that I was "born again". I have my conversion testimony posted in my profile that presents the events that led up to my salvation.
Joe
I recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read post #3 where I present the "big picture" for this creation. Nothing happens in this creation that is not God's "will". He causes all things to happen. He never just allows anything to happen that is not in accordance with His "will".
I read your profile and saw that you said you were saved at age 12. I assume you are associating water baptism with salvation? Is that right?
I was baptized in water at age 12 also, but I was not saved at that time. I was baptized again at age 29 and was not saved at that time either. I was baptized again at age 43 and again, I was not saved at that time. It wasn't until I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit at age 44 that I was "born again". I have my conversion testimony posted in my profile that presents the events that led up to my salvation.
Joe
Dear BillHeath,
I recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read post #3 where I present the "big picture" for this creation. Nothing happens in this creation that is not God's "will". He causes all things to happen. He never just allows anything to happen that is not in accordance with His "will".
I read your profile and saw that you said you were saved at age 12. I assume you are associating water baptism with salvation? Is that right?
I was baptized in water at age 12 also, but I was not saved at that time. I was baptized again at age 29 and was not saved at that time either. I was baptized again at age 43 and again, I was not saved at that time. It wasn't until I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit at age 44 that I was "born again". I have my conversion testimony posted in my profile that presents the events that led up to my salvation.
Joe
I recommend you go back to the first page of this thread and read post #3 where I present the "big picture" for this creation. Nothing happens in this creation that is not God's "will". He causes all things to happen. He never just allows anything to happen that is not in accordance with His "will".
I read your profile and saw that you said you were saved at age 12. I assume you are associating water baptism with salvation? Is that right?
I was baptized in water at age 12 also, but I was not saved at that time. I was baptized again at age 29 and was not saved at that time either. I was baptized again at age 43 and again, I was not saved at that time. It wasn't until I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit at age 44 that I was "born again". I have my conversion testimony posted in my profile that presents the events that led up to my salvation.
Joe
Your assumption would be incorrect. I wasn’t baptized until I was 19. Sorry for not reading carefully. I know that God is Sovereign and in control of all. To simply put it I am a doctrines of Grace person. Please do not confuse with Calvinism though I do hold to TULIP.
Your profile says you were saved at age 12. I was baptized in water in the Church of Christ at age 12. The church my family attended believed that 12 was the age of accountability so they baptized children when they turned 12. Just thought your experience might have been similar. Of course, water baptism does not save a person. Only the Baptism of the Holy Spirit/Latter Rain will save us. Water baptism is a physical symbol for the spiritual reality.
Also, I am certainly not a Calvinist nor do I believe in TULIP. My understanding of scripture comes from scripture itself and not from a group or denomination. In fact, since my conversion in 2005, I have not attended any church. My fellowship is with Christ and His Father and the few on-line believers that I have met.
I am a "GRACE person" like you but I suspect my understanding of Grace is different than yours. My understanding is that Christ is going to come to each person "in due time" (1Tim 2:3-6) and do all the spiritual work necessary for their salvation. Christ does His spiritual work "within" them without them asking Him to do it and Christ does not ask for their permission to do it either. He just does it. Until He does His work within us, we cannot call Him "Lord". We have no free will ability to accept Christ in our carnally minded state.
Paul's conversion experience is the pattern for the pathway to salvation. Paul did not ask for anything on the Damascus Road when Christ, because of His Grace, gave Paul the Early Rain. And for that matter, Paul didn't ask for anything 3 days latter in Damascus when he received the Latter Rain. Christ did His work within Paul strictly because of His Grace, just as He will do for all mankind.
Joe