The doctrine of entire sanctification.

[Jocund]

When a pastor or Christian says "you are going to sin at some point in the future, there is no way around it," they are teaching this false doctrine and heresy.

That it is a false doctrine and heresy should be clear when we discover the fact that we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and that therefore it is possible to walk consistently, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

For Jesus came to save us from our sins (Matthew 1:21) and to redeem us from all iniquity (Titus 2:14-15).

I think this topic ties in with the other thread about saints and sin:

Saint:

"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." - Psalm 50:5 KJV

"Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:" - 1 Corinthians 5:7 KJV

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 2:5 KJV

Sinner:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" - Romans 3:23 KJV

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8 KJV

"All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." - 1 John 5:17 KJV

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:" - Romans 3:10 KJV

Saints struggle with Sin:

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." - Romans 7:21-25 KJV

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:28 KJV

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" - Ephesians 2:8 KJV

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 KJV

The correct conclusion can only be that sainthood (membership in the covenant of Christ) and sin (misalignment from righteousness) are not mutually exclusive when speaking about a person as a whole. Scripture goes into detail about the body dying but the spirit living through Christ: the Adam from earth and the Adam from heaven. When Christ speaks to the adulteress and states "sin no more", is Christ talking to the sinful body or the spirit within her? In the parable of the wheat, is the whole wheat saved? No. Only the purified fruit is while the chaff is separated and blown away.

Paul was a sinner. Paul was a saint. There is a part of Paul that is destined for death and a part of Paul that is destined for life. There is a part of the wheat that is destined for death and a part of the wheat that is destined for life.

We would be mistaken to say that one is by necessity wholly saintly or wholly sinful. Only by the completion of the purification could this be the case. The dichotomy of "one is either a saint or a sinner" (while interesting) does not follow scripture.

The disagreement is likely either about how "sin" and "sinner" is being defined or how "self" is defined. We see in Romans 7-9 that Paul is warring with himself. We see in many passages that sin isn't really about "what" has been done but the will behind it. Someone that fancies another man's wife but does not act on it is still guilty of sin. And because Paul establishes that he is in Christ but still has an evil part of him that is kept in check, that evil part of him is likely perpetually sinning. Paul as a whole is always sinning, but the saint in Paul never is. No physical action is required for sin.

I don't see how "inevitable sin" would be a false doctrine.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is also false doctrine (included in the heresy of gnosticism) that when we sin with our flesh, that which we truly are does not sin.

For that is separating our flesh (that which is made of matter) as evil and our spirit-man (that which is spiritual) as good; which is gnosticism.

When we sin, we sin with our whole being. So, if I sin with my flesh, I sin with my spirit also.

Now, in 1 John 3:9 we are taught that the one who is born of God doth not commit sin for His seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God.

So then, if I cannot sin with my flesh or my spirit (since if I sin with my flesh I also sin with my spirit), sin is most definitely not inevitable.

For it is written that we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

 

[Jocund]

When we sin, we sin with our whole being. So, if I sin with my flesh, I sin with my spirit also.

That is not supported by scripture.

It is also false doctrine (included in the heresy of gnosticism) that when we sin with our flesh, that which we truly are does not sin.

This part. Demonstrate this part.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is not supported by scripture.



This part. Demonstrate this part.

Since gnosticism is diametrically opposed to orthodox Christianity, I believe it is expedient to reject its doctrines.

 

[Jocund]

Since gnosticism is diametrically opposed to orthodox Christianity, I believe it is expedient to reject its doctrines.

You are claiming it is categorically gnostic. I am stating that is not the case. Please substantiate your position.

 

[justpassinthrough]

That is not supported by scripture.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19

• I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

“Those” indicates that the person, not just their physical body will be rejected from inheriting the kingdom of God; ie be cast into the everlasting fires along with the devil and his angels.




again



Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption; damnation
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Our entire being decides to following the leading of the Spirit within, or submit to lustful cravings of our flesh.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1







JPT

 

[Jocund]

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19

• I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

“Those” indicates that the person, not just their physical body will be rejected from inheriting the kingdom of God; ie be cast into the everlasting fires along with the devil and his angels.




again



Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption; damnation
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Our entire being decides to following the leading of the Spirit within, or submit to lustful cravings of our flesh.



There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1







JPT

Admittedly, justbyfaith's phrasing in the quoted portion of post 202 can be interpretted different ways. I assumed that the comment had a particular context following from some of the previous posts and it may be the case that my assumption of his meaning was in err.

If we explore "whole" as the sum of all parts, if one part of us sins, the collective identity has sinned, yes. But it would not be the case that each component part has sinned as the result of one sinning component.

What we see in scripture is that a physical action is not required in order for sin to have occurred (e.g. Jesus talking about adultery in one's heart). We see that premise expanded on with Paul explaining that an idol is nothing in itself, and that in fact idoltary is something from within rather than a specific physical interaction. It therefore follows that any thought or impulse to do evil is sinful. Paul describes that he has evil within him that he wars against. It then follows that so long as that evil is within him a part of him constantly sins, but the dominant willpower that identifies as Paul in Christ is free of sin through Christ. There is good (Christ) nature, evil nature, and then the body which is the temple. The temple can be used to worship the evil nature or be used to worship the Christ nature, but sin exists outside of the temple as a result of that evil nature. The one with the adulterous heart has committed adultery despite never having used his body (temple) to commit that sin.

I'm not suggesting Paul physically committed anything, I am suggesting that by virtue of having a sin nature separate from his Christ nature that part of him (the sin nature) sins any time it wars against his Christ nature.

The premise that one never sins after finding Christ is therefore at odds with scripture based on Romans 7-9.

And we should note that there is a topic to explore with what counts as "practice" of a sin such as adultery, etc. A repentant mind actively seeking to avoid sin would not usually be considered a mind that "practices" sin even if there was a slip-up along the way.

 

[justbyfaith]

If we explore "whole" as the sum of all parts, if one part of us sins, the collective identity has sinned, yes. But it would not be the case that each component part has sinned as the result of one sinning component.

If the collective identity has sinned then every distinct component has also sinned.

 

[justbyfaith]

The premise that one never sins after finding Christ is therefore at odds with scripture based on Romans 7-9.

Scripture specifically teaches that one never sins after finding Christ (1 John 3:9);

Or, at the very least, if 1 John 3:9 be hyperbole, that one does not have to ever sin after finding Christ (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

 

[Jocund]

If the collective identity has sinned then every distinct component has also sinned.

That is certainly a model of interpetation that we can test against scripture. But when we test it against scripture it appears to create a contradiction, which means that the model must be wrong.


If we instead explore the concept that a sinful collective identity does not necessitate that each distinctive component is sinful, we avoid the contradiction.

If we focus on Romans 7-9, Paul describes the body dying in sin, and a sinful, carnal nature that exists in him. If we apply your model, it would mean that he is wholly sinful in each component. But he also affirms that he is of Christ and Christ is sinless. Therefore this seemingly creates a contradiction.

When we look at Romans 7:25 specifically, how can this description exist without the tacit context that "self" exists is a divisible thing with some components being sinful and other components being sinless?

 

[Jocund]

Scripture specifically teaches that one never sins after finding Christ (1 John 3:9);

Or, at the very least, if 1 John 3:9 be hyperbole, that one does not have to ever sin after finding Christ (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

I am suggesting that the "new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) exists inside the husk of the "old creature". The husk has a sinful nature, but in the end that sinless "new creature" is freed from the husk and collected. This would mean that 1 John 3:9 isn't hyperbolic as any of these references would be speaking to the "new creature" rather than the husk.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is certainly a model of interpetation that we can test against scripture. But when we test it against scripture it appears to create a contradiction, which means that the model must be wrong.


If we instead explore the concept that a sinful collective identity does not necessitate that each distinctive component is sinful, we avoid the contradiction.

If we focus on Romans 7-9, Paul describes the body dying in sin, and a sinful, carnal nature that exists in him. If we apply your model, it would mean that he is wholly sinful in each component. But he also affirms that he is of Christ and Christ is sinless. Therefore this seemingly creates a contradiction.

When we look at Romans 7:25 specifically, how can this description exist without the tacit context that "self" exists is a divisible thing with some components being sinful and other components being sinless?

Keep studying...

The model that I have set forth has no contradictions in it if you understand the scriptures correctly.

Paul speaks of "redemption of the body" in Romans 8:23 and I believe that in reference to this we can look at Ephesians 5:30-32; also Hebrews 9:13b-14a, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

In Romans 6:6 and Colossians 2:11 I find that it is also referring to what is in our flesh.

I am suggesting that the "new creature" (2 Cor 5:17) exists inside the husk of the "old creature". The husk has a sinful nature, but in the end that sinless "new creature" is freed from the husk and collected. This would mean that 1 John 3:9 isn't hyperbolic as any of these references would be speaking to the "new creature" rather than the husk.

See above.

 

[Jocund]

The model that I have set forth has no contradictions in it if you understand the scriptures correctly.

How do you address Romans 7:25 with your model?

Yes, keep studying.

 

[justbyfaith]

How do you address Romans 7:25 with your model?

Yes, keep studying.

Paul serves the law of sin with the flesh;

However, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus; who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1)...

Those who do not walk after the flesh do not serve the law of sin.

 

[Jocund]

Paul serves the law of sin with the flesh;

However, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus; who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1)...

Those who do not walk after the flesh do not serve the law of sin.

Their mind does not serve the law of sin but the flesh does. There is no condemnation, but that does not necessarily mean that there is a complete absence of sin, only that one does not "walk after flesh" or "practice" sin.

You seem to be interpretting "walking" and "practice" to mean that one is completely devoid of sin. I am suggesting that to "walk" is in reference to a physical enactment of sinful will, and that "practice" is in reference to a behaviour which allowed to repeat and grow stronger unimpeded.

The entire speech in Romans 7 is Paul discussing sin under the law of the old testament and how the laws that dealt with physical action were easy enough to conform to. But it was stated by the law that it is a sin to covet which is something that happens in the mind independent of physical action. Paul observes that his very fleshly nature caused him inescapably to commit this sin. Nonphysical sin was the sticking point in Romans 7. Paul's resolution was that the will of God should be dominant in our ways, despite having a sinning corruptible nature that would otherwise lead us to death by itself. His speech in Romans 7-9 isn't about existing devoid of sin, but to take the reins away from sin in our lives and to our utmost allow our loving God (the only good that exists) to work through us. The will that we identify with is the sinless component but the whole of us is not without sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that Jesus is able to cleanse the inside of the cup and platter as well as the outside (Matthew 23:25-28).

It says in Psalms 10:4 concerning the wicked, that God is not in all of his thoughts. I believe that this also refers to the Romans 7:14-25 Christian.

For the one who has graduated into Romans 8, God is in all of his thoughts and Jesus has cleansed the inside of the cup and platter.

 

[SophieT]

That is not supported by scripture.



This part. Demonstrate this part.

I agree with what you are saying here

I have tried to explain to just what Gnosticism is

Gnosticism is the belief we can sin as much as we want because our spirits remain pure

he disagrees

 

[SophieT]

It says in Psalms 10:4 concerning the wicked, that God is not in all of his thoughts. I believe that this also refers to the Romans 7:14-25 Christian.

you are totally misunderstanding the passage

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

the above highlighted sentence, is Paul's conclusion of this passage. He is not wallowing in sin and sinning constantly as some like to portray it. He understands and knows...as should we...that our flesh is passing and will die...HOWEVER...we are now obedient to the new man...the new creation in Christ and forgiven and acceptable to God our Father

this constant seeing oneself as still a sinner a perpetuating the mistaken belief that if we dwell on sin we will somehow overcome it, is deception and not representative of our new life in Christ

saying our spirits sin is denying the fact that God has made us righteous in Christ. Salvation is not a swinging door. We are positionally pure and sinless because our spirits are indwelt by the Spirit of God and the blood of Christ has washed us clean of our sins. If our spirits are thought of as sinful flesh, then we have misapprehended what God has actually accomplished through His Son on our behalf

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree with what you are saying here

I have tried to explain to just what Gnosticism is

Gnosticism is the belief we can sin as much as we want because our spirits remain pure

he disagrees

No; I have contended against the gnostic idea that if we sin with our flesh, we do not sin with our spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

you are totally misunderstanding the passage

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

the above highlighted sentence, is Paul's conclusion of this passage. He is not wallowing in sin and sinning constantly as some like to portray it. He understands and knows...as should we...that our flesh is passing and will die...HOWEVER...we are now obedient to the new man...the new creation in Christ and forgiven and acceptable to God our Father

this constant seeing oneself as still a sinner a perpetuating the mistaken belief that if we dwell on sin we will somehow overcome it, is deception and not representative of our new life in Christ

saying our spirits sin is denying the fact that God has made us righteous in Christ. Salvation is not a swinging door. We are positionally pure and sinless because our spirits are indwelt by the Spirit of God and the blood of Christ has washed us clean of our sins. If our spirits are thought of as sinful flesh, then we have misapprehended what God has actually accomplished through His Son on our behalf

In 2 Corinthians 7:1, we are told to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord by cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

This indicates that there is such a thing as filthiness of spirit;

And that if we can cleanse ourselves from that, we can also cleanse ourselves from the filthiness of the flesh.