Some of the reasons I pulled away from Dispensationalism.

[TheDivineWatermark]

@TheDivineWatermark

Do dispensationalist ever read anything other then other dispensationalist?

I can't speak for all others (though I know of many who DO, INCLUDING the writer of that article I just posted in my Post #138--Paul Martin Henebury, who does read [abundantly] outside of his own perspective [and then also provides reviews of them, btw])...

...but speaking for myself, I own a personal library of thousands of books (from every stripe and viewpoint), as well as reading widely via other means. So I would say, yes... ones I know DO. lol








[I think we all know there are those who are less well read in whatever viewpoint they themselves hold (across the whole spectrum of viewpoints), and thus do not present their side's viewpoint well... like the fluffy rumor thing...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Says nothing about restoring the Kingdom to Israel the nation

Jesus had ALREADY said to them (at a PREVIOUS point in time):

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory [COMPARE Matthew 25:31-34 for its TIMING (and its earthly-located setting)], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:28.


I find that many folks have to explain away the plain meaning of this text (and related texts), in order to maintain their "viewpoint" (many of which say there is no longer "the twelve tribes of Israel" [one particular NATION] in God's scheme of things [future; that is, ISRAEL's "future" (future yet to us, presently)--See Hosea 5:14-6:3 re: Israel's "future" (for example)... "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... from the perspective of His ascension]).






[again, for the readers, see the article I put at the bottom of my Post #139 which explains the term "Israel" as used in the NT]

 

[Journeyman]

...and Isaiah 5:7 says, "... the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel..."

So I would point out that the parables about "the vineyard" in the Gospels are about "Israel"... but one would have to acknowledge that ALL 73 occurrences of the word "Israel" in the NT always mean "Israel" (which many do not acknowledge). = )

In this parable, the vineyard is the Kingdom of God,

and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt.21:41,43

I don't know what your point was. My point was all the fruit and all the land in heaven and on earth belong to God, because it's all in his Kingdom.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I can't speak for all others (though I know of many who DO, INCLUDING the writer of that article I just posted in my Post #138--Paul Martin Henebury, who does read [abundantly] outside of his own perspective [and then also provides reviews of them, btw])...

...but speaking for myself, I own a personal library of thousands of books (from every stripe and viewpoint), as well as reading widely via other means. So I would say, yes... ones I know DO. lol








[I think we all know there are those who are less well read in whatever viewpoint they themselves hold (across the whole spectrum of viewpoints), and thus do not present their side's viewpoint well... like the fluffy rumor thing...]

I cling to the Millenium-Day theory, that 7 day creation foreshadows God's plan of 7000 years for mankind. This is a very ancient rabbonical ideology even before the whole bible was compiled. In that system there're only three "dispensations" if that's what you still wanna call it, 4000 years from Adam to Christ, 2000 years from Christ's ministry to His return, and 1000 years millennial kingdom as the final "sabbath". Since Jesus himself used the terms "end of the age" "time of the Gentiles" "DAT of the Lord", I think this is definitely legit. I'll write another thread sometime to lay out a timeline of this system.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I cling to the Millenium-Day theory, that 7 day creation foreshadows God's plan of 7000 years for mankind.

And I myself pretty much agree with it. = ) Yes.





[six days of creation... the last day / seventh day, "REST"--Heb4:9 "sabbatismos" / Exodus 31:13,17 "It [/the seventh day / sabbath] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"]

 

[Beckie]

This is such a ludicrous statement that it does not even deserve any response. So either you have no clue about Scofield, or you would rather spout anti-Scofield propaganda than the truth.

In defense of Cyrus Scofield, it must must said that the original Scofield Reference Bible (KJV 1910) has been a tremendous help and blessing to hundreds of thousands of Christians (and I have used it personally). While one can disagree with him on certain positions he held (e.g. the Gap Theory), 99.9% of his notes and headings are sound and totally biblical. So I will challenge Beckie to show us exactly how Scofield has "attacked" the Body of Christ. Fake News is a terrible thing since it drives people to believe lies.

As to John Nelson Darby, there are many pluses and quite a few minuses. But there is no question that the writings of Darby have been very influential for many Christians. It is really regrettable that Darby did not have the discernment to see that Westcott & Hort had perpetrated a major hoax on Christendom. Therefore Darby's bible is based upon their corrupt Critical Text and even omits that critical verse in Acts 8:37 (as do most modern translations).

King James Bible
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

If this verse is omitted, the passage makes absolutely no sense. But if it is regarded as genuine Scripture then it teaches us that water baptism by immersion is to be only administered AFTER someone becomes a believer.

This is such a ludicrous statement that it does not even deserve any response. So either you have no clue about Scofield, or you would rather spout anti-Scofield propaganda than the truth.
What i have posted are Scofield's notes it is his writings his propaganda

 

[Nehemiah6]

What i have posted are Scofield's notes it is his writings his propaganda

Here is what you said earlier: "I see Scofield's works , the ones I have read, as an attack on the Body of Christ."

Since this is completely false, show us exactly where Scofield has attacked the Body of Christ. Chapter and verse. Otherwise retract this ludicrous statement.

 

[Beckie]

Here is what you said earlier: "I see Scofield's works , the ones I have read, as an attack on the Body of Christ."

Since this is completely false, show us exactly where Scofield has attacked the Body of Christ. Chapter and verse. Otherwise retract this ludicrous statement.

Yes i did say the above. His notes show the attack . Maybe reading them with an open mind just thinking he could be a bit out of line ...

 

[Beckie]

What are Sofields notes on the Resurrections and what are the Words of Jesus on the Resurrection?

Here is what you said earlier: "I see Scofield's works , the ones I have read, as an attack on the Body of Christ."

Since this is completely false, show us exactly where Scofield has attacked the Body of Christ. Chapter and verse. Otherwise retract this ludicrous statement.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What are Sofields notes on the Resurrections and what are the Words of Jesus on the Resurrection?

Here are Scofield's notes on the Resurrection shown below (as found on Bible Hub):

Resurrection, Summary:
(1) The resurrection of the dead was believed by the patriarchs Gen 22:5 Heb 11:19 Job 19:25-27 and revealed through the prophets Isa 26:19 Dan 12:2,13 Hos 13:14 and miracles of the dead restored to life are recorded in the O.T. 2Ki 4:32-35 13:21.

(2) Jesus Christ restored life to the dead Mt 9:25 Lk 7:12-15 Jn 11:43,44 and predicted His own resurrection Jn 10:18 Lk 24:1-8.

(3) A resurrection of bodies followed the resurrection of Christ Mt 27:52,53 and the apostles raised the dead Acts 9:36-41 20:9,10.

(4) Two resurrections are yet future, which are inclusive of "all that are in the graves" Jn 5:28. These are distinguished as "of life" 1Cor 15:22,23 1Th 4:14-17 Rev 20:4 and "of judgment" Jn 5:28,29 Rev 20:11-13. They are separated by a period of one thousand years Rev 20:5. The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ 1Cor 15:23 the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air 1Th 4:16,17 while the martyrs of the tribulation, who also have part in the resurrection Rev 20:4 are raised at the end of the great tribulation.

(5) The mortal body will be related to the resurrection body as grain sown is related to the harvest 1Cor 15:37,38 that body will be incorruptible, glorious, powerful, and spiritual 1Cor 15:42-44,49.

(6) The bodies of living believers will, at the same time, be instantaneously changed 1Cor 15:50-53 Phil 3:20,21. This "change" of the living, and resurrection of the dead in Christ, is called the "redemption of the body" Rom 8:23 Eph 1:13,14.

(7) After the thousand years the "resurrection unto judgment" Jn 5:29 occurs. The resurrection-body of the wicked dead is not described. They are judged according to their works, and cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:7-15.

It appears that Scofield did not separate the Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the Second Coming. Which is not according to Dispensationalism, but according to Post-Tribulationism.

 

[Chester]

I cling to the Millenium-Day theory, that 7 day creation foreshadows God's plan of 7000 years for mankind. This is a very ancient rabbonical ideology even before the whole bible was compiled. In that system there're only three "dispensations" if that's what you still wanna call it, 4000 years from Adam to Christ, 2000 years from Christ's ministry to His return, and 1000 years millennial kingdom as the final "sabbath". Since Jesus himself used the terms "end of the age" "time of the Gentiles" "DAT of the Lord", I think this is definitely legit. I'll write another thread sometime to lay out a timeline of this system.

The trouble with the Millenium-Day theory is that it is simply someone's guesswork - someone's idea of what/when might happen. There is no Scripture that gives this theory as a truth.

And to say that further revelation from the Spirit has given such a theory is adding to Scripture. That I will not do or agree with.

 

[Jocund]

Reasons for Not Reinterpreting the OT by the NT

The OT must be understood through the NT.

"And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart." - 2 Cor 3:13-15 KJV

 

[Beckie]

Here are Scofield's notes on the Resurrection shown below (as found on Bible Hub):

Resurrection, Summary:
(1) The resurrection of the dead was believed by the patriarchs Gen 22:5 Heb 11:19 Job 19:25-27 and revealed through the prophets Isa 26:19 Dan 12:2,13 Hos 13:14 and miracles of the dead restored to life are recorded in the O.T. 2Ki 4:32-35 13:21.

(2) Jesus Christ restored life to the dead Mt 9:25 Lk 7:12-15 Jn 11:43,44 and predicted His own resurrection Jn 10:18 Lk 24:1-8.

(3) A resurrection of bodies followed the resurrection of Christ Mt 27:52,53 and the apostles raised the dead Acts 9:36-41 20:9,10.

(4) Two resurrections are yet future, which are inclusive of "all that are in the graves" Jn 5:28. These are distinguished as "of life" 1Cor 15:22,23 1Th 4:14-17 Rev 20:4 and "of judgment" Jn 5:28,29 Rev 20:11-13. They are separated by a period of one thousand years Rev 20:5. The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ 1Cor 15:23 the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air 1Th 4:16,17 while the martyrs of the tribulation, who also have part in the resurrection Rev 20:4 are raised at the end of the great tribulation.

(5) The mortal body will be related to the resurrection body as grain sown is related to the harvest 1Cor 15:37,38 that body will be incorruptible, glorious, powerful, and spiritual 1Cor 15:42-44,49.

(6) The bodies of living believers will, at the same time, be instantaneously changed 1Cor 15:50-53 Phil 3:20,21. This "change" of the living, and resurrection of the dead in Christ, is called the "redemption of the body" Rom 8:23 Eph 1:13,14.

(7) After the thousand years the "resurrection unto judgment" Jn 5:29 occurs. The resurrection-body of the wicked dead is not described. They are judged according to their works, and cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:7-15.

It appears that Scofield did not separate the Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the Second Coming. Which is not according to Dispensationalism, but according to Post-Tribulationism.

What did Jesus say about the resurrection ? How do they compare ?

 

[Nehemiah6]

What did Jesus say about the resurrection ? How do they compare ?

That is all included in his notes. There is no contradiction. And you seem to be forgetting that Jesus gave us the overview while the apostles have provided additional details. So once again it is up to you to connect the dots. Scofield has connected the dots, but he should have separated the Rapture from the Second Coming in his notes. But many others have also made this mistake.

 

[Jocund]

It appears that Scofield did not separate the Pre-Tribulation Rapture from the Second Coming. Which is not according to Dispensationalism, but according to Post-Tribulationism.

On one hand you say Scofield is without contradiction to scripture and on the other hand you claim that Scofield's interpretation does not match your dispensationalist view.

Either you are stating that multiple interpretations can be correct at the same time or that Beckie was correct in her criticism of Scofield. Which is it?

 

[Beckie]

That is all included in his notes. There is no contradiction. And you seem to be forgetting that Jesus gave us the overview while the apostles have provided additional details. So once again it is up to you to connect the dots. Scofield has connected the dots, but he should have separated the Rapture from the Second Coming in his notes. But many others have also made this mistake.

You are not willing to quote Jesus but you quoted Scofield that says a lot towards my point.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Either you are stating that multiple interpretations can be correct at the same time or that Beckie was correct in her criticism of Scofield. Which is it?

Beckie was presenting a WHOLESALE condemnation of Scofield and Dispensationalism.

But I had already stated that while he is generally correct, there are some of his views with which I (and others) would disagree (e.g. the Gap Theory). This would be true for any commentator. So in general Scofield is biblical.

 

[Beckie]

Beckie was presenting a WHOLESALE condemnation of Scofield and Dispensationalism.

But I had already stated that while he is generally correct, there are some of his views with which I (and others) would disagree (e.g. the Gap Theory). This would be true for any commentator. So in general Scofield is biblical.

A bit more on my personal thoughts of Scofield . His notes are in the Scofield Bible Putting ones note in a Bible that is for sale ( not your own use) is a troublesome thing to do. His notes are what so many have built the idea of a third temple . As to my words "low view"
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Yet i read over and over for years now how things are being gathered together for a third, According to Scofield the blood sacrifices offered there are to be a manorial . What an insult to the Cross of Christ .

 

[TheLearner]

Background:
Dad was in Bible School when i was born. Glad Tidings was a Assemblies of God school. The blessings of being born into a Christian family I will ever be thankful for. The family lived and breathed Dispensational thinking. Some of my earliest memories are making sure i was right with Jesus because the nation of Israel had formed and it was now about 7 years beyond 1948. So scared i had sinned and would be left, mind you i was 9 -10 . The secret rapture ... if Mom was not home for some reason when school got out the fear of being left behind would hit again time after time... Didn't expect Dad to be home he was a tree faller along with pastoring a small Pentecostal church. The point here is i grew up with a heavy dose of Dispensationalism. Thinking a Scofield Bible was THEE Word of God.

I am not a good writer, struggle with making myself clear. Because of this reply from a fellow poster i will attempt this thread.
Rhomphaeam


I could list a mess of urls, that is not my plan although i will use others notes.

Please lets not go to the yes no yes no postings

The true meaning of rightly dividing the word of God really has the meaning of "applying the word of God" to our lives.

 

[Jocund]

So in general Scofield is biblical.

Then yes, you have changed your mind since post 147.