The joy of Calvin's succinctness.

[Rhomphaeam]

Brethren seem to find Calvin difficult to receive. Some stumble over his jurisprudent phonology. Others may simply be indifferent to him altogether. What I have found is that rather than being hostile it is better to be reasonable and to at least acknowledge that our natural minds may set us on a course that in the end has us calling men liars if first we cannot easily believe what they have said - unless the Spirit gives us vital meaning.

To whit

Paul writing his letter to the church in Galatia, spoke of them saying, You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? Galatians 3:1

Do we know when this happened? Were the Galatians to whom Paul was writing present at the Crucifixion? Has Paul lied to them?

As a means to disquiet such a concern we may say that Galatia was an ancient area in the highlands of central Anatolia, roughly corresponding to the provinces of Ankara and Eskişehir, in modern Turkey? Or should we ask whether the Galatians were present on the day of Pentecost and therefore, were those now back in Galatia having been in Jerusalem before hand to see the crucifixion? Should we exert a rational mind first - before we are led of the Spirit, seeing as our minds are carnal without Him?

When one brother asserts an undoubted meaning from one verse of Scripture, such as Galatians 5:22 where faith is stated to be a fruit of the Spirit, and another brother asserts Galatians 5:24-25 to make a complete opposite claim seeing that these two verses seem to him to be saying that of which he is confident refutes his brother - then are we not in similitude, in danger of asking whether the Galatians were really in Jerusalem when the Apostle Paul wrote, You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

The Galatians, by, force of reason alone, were either in Jerusalem, or else Paul’s words are not simply a matter of rationale but necessitate the leading of the Spirit to make them vital. It seems to me at least that Galatians 5:22 can be taken as a rational fact, whereas Galatians 5:24-25 must be taken by faith. Just as Galatians 3:1 must be taken by faith even though rationally they may be no more than a material claim - yet they cannot be proven, rationally.

Rhomphaeam, the Blatherer

Ergo:

Let this therefore be the first step, that a man depart from himself in order that he may apply the whole force of his ability in the service of the Lord. I call 'service' not only what lies in obedience to God's Word but what turns the mind of man, empty of its own carnal sense, wholly to the bidding of God's Spirit. Institutes (3.7.1)

Calvin, the Succinct

 

[p_rehbein]

Do I believe Calvin was sincere in his faith? Yes.

Do I agree with his assertations concerning his T.U.L.I.P. theory? No.

To each his own I suppose..........

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just for kicks, I went and looked up the word (in the OP verse) "PORTRAYED" and found it used 4x in the nkjv... interesting:

Eze 8:10
So I went in and saw, and there—every sort of creeping thing, abominable beasts, and all the idols of the house of Israel, portrayed all around on the walls.

Eze 23:14
But she increased her harlotry;
She looked at men portrayed on the wall,
Images of Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion,

Gal 3:1
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[fn] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[fn--'NU-Text omits among you'] as crucified?







Then I looked up the word in the Greek and found this (at BLB, under "Thayers"), which says (in part):

2. to depict or portray openly (cf. πρό, d. α: οἷς κατ' ὀφθαλμούς Ἰησοῦς Χριστός προεγράφη ἐν ὑμῖν (but ἐν ὑμῖν is dropped by G L T Tr WH) ἐσταυρωμένος, before whose eyes was portrayed the picture of Jesus Christ crucified (the attentive contemplation of which picture ought to have been a preventive against that bewitchment), i. e. who were taught most definitely and plainly concerning the meritorious efficacy of the death of Christ, Galatians 3:1. Since the simple γράφειν is often used of painters, and προγράφειν certainly signifies also to write before the eyes of all who can read (Plutarch, Demetr. 46 at the end, προγραφει τίς αὐτοῦ πρό τῆς σκηνῆς τήν τοῦ Ὀιδιποδος ἀρχήν), I see no reason why προγράφειν may not mean to depict (paint, portray) before the eyes; (R. V. openly set forth).


[end quoting]



I agree with the above paragraph (at BLB, under "Thayers"), as to the sense of that word, and thus to the meaning of Gal3:1. = )

["hath been evidently set forth"... that was the writer's task]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Sry, forgot to include the link: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4270/nkjv/tr/0-1/ [scroll down to "THAYER'S" to see the paragraph I quoted in the previous post]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Do I believe Calvin was sincere in his faith? Yes.

Do I agree with his assertations concerning his T.U.L.I.P. theory? No.

Agreed.






[to be clear to the readers: I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist]

 

[Magenta]

The problem with Calvinism (as I see it) is the built-in belief that some were created for destruction and therefore salvation is not available to them, yet still they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never offered to them in the first place.

On the other hand, Scripture says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

I had someone recently try to tell me that "whole world" meant or
applied to only those who will inhabit the future world to come

The amount of twisting of God's Word that has to be done to come to such conclusions is rather astounding.

 

[wintersrain]

I think Calvin gets a lot of flack because he's thought to be the originator of the doctrine named after him. I don't think that was something he ascribed to his teachings though.

In point of fact he was teaching a doctrine far older. And from what I've found it is all sustained by the Bible itself.
One part that was really interesting is when we're told by Paul that God through his grace and as a gift to those he chooses gives both faith and Salvation.

God gives. Not humans choose.

And being Calvin spoke of predetermination quite a bit I looked that term up to find if it is also sustained by the Bible verses. It is. Predetermination, Predestination, Fore-ordination.
What is all the prophecy about Jesus in the Old Testament but that same thing.

And God did create people for destruction. He says so himself. He also hardens those whom he chooses to harden. Romans 9 is a good read for that one.
Maybe Calvin's contribution to an older doctrine than himself is that he codified it all with an acronym like TULIP. How do you forget a flower type when thinking about what he was actually repeating from earlier teachers.

 

[wintersrain]

This guy is a Calvin type follower. Pretty well known from what I've heard.
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/fitted-for-destruction

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

On the other hand, Scripture says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

I had someone recently try to tell me that "whole world" meant or
applied to only those who will inhabit the future world to come

I've heard some comment about that verse, pointing out that "the sins of [the whole world]" is in italics, thus not in the original ( https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...sins+of+the+whole+world&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 ) ... but I think that matter is adequately addressed in the following article excerpt, which I've quoted from in past posts:


[quoting Paul Wilson - (Source: Biblecentre, linked below)]


The Two Goats Of Leviticus 16

The "limited atonement" doctrine is built upon a premise that lacks understanding of the two views of the cross of Christ as regards His work, that is, propitiation and substitution. The types used on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 are set aside in deference to a theory, a doctrine of men (be they good men or bad is not the point). On that memorable day, which occurred once a year in Israel's history, there were, among other similitudes two goats - one called the Lord's lot, and the other the people's. The goat of the Lord's lot was killed and its blood taken inside of the veil by the high priest, where he sprinkled the blood once upon the mercy seat and seven times on the desert sand before it. It was there above the mercy seat that God dwelt among the people, and as they were sinners He must needs have the evidence of death presented before Him - the blood was sprinkled there. This was propitiation - a satisfaction rendered to God whereby He could act in grace toward a sinful people. On the head of the other goat, the sins of the people were confessed by the high priest, and it was led into a land not inhabited, so that their sins were removed. This was substitution.
In a sense, both goats are one in the matter of sin - the one being slain and its blood presented before God, and the other bearing the sins away to be remembered no more - for without the blood of the one goat there could be no bearing away of sins on the other. Let us notice the words of another:

Denial Of Substitution

"There is a continual tendency in the different classes, even of believers in Christendom, to ignore one or other of these truths. Take for instance those zealous that the gospel go out to every creature. It is notorious that most of these deny God's special favor to the elect. They overlook or pare down any positive difference on God's part toward His own children. They hold that a man throughout his course may be a child of God today and not tomorrow. This destroys substitution [seen in the live goat led away]. They hold propitiation [seen in the blood of the other goat as presented before God], and there they are right, and quite justified in preaching the gospel unrestrictedly to every creature, as the Lord indeed enjoined, But how their one-sidedness enfeebles the proper portion of the saints!

Denial Of Propitiation

"But look for a moment at the opposite side [Mr. Pink's], which holds that all God has done and reveals is in view of the elect only, and that all He has wrought in Christ Jesus is in effect for the Church, and that He does not care about the world, except to judge it at the last day. This may be put rather bluntly, for I do not present such grievous narrowness toward man and dishonor of God and His Son in as polished terms as those might desire who cherish notions so unsavory and unsound. But it is true that a certain respectable class around us do see nothing but the elect as the object of God. Their doctrine supposes only the second goat, or the people's lot. They see the all-importance of substitution, but Jehovah's lot has no place as distinct.

http://biblecentre.org/content.php?mode=7&item=892






Oh, but I really would like to point out more of what he writes, here (same article):


"How came the two contending parties of religionists [referred to in the above quoted text ^ ] not to see both goats? The Word of God reveals both.... Plainly there are two goats."

[...and further states...]

"Even the type demonstrates . . . that we require these two distinct truths to maintain the balance of God's truth.... They are admirably held together; they compose God's truth. It is quite true that in the first goat God has secured His majesty, and His righteous title to send forth His message of love to every creature. Again, in the second goat He has equally cared for the assurance of His people, that all their sins, transgressions, and iniquities, are completely borne away. How could the truth of atonement be more admirably shown by types beforehand?"


[end quoting; bold and underline mine; more at link]

 

[Magenta]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his
Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Yep , "For God so loved the world... that whosoever..."



["And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself" - John 12:32 ]

 

[Magenta]

^ Yep , "For God so loved the world... that whosoever..."

["And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" - John 12:32 ]

John 12:31-32

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The problem with Calvinism (as I see it) is the built-in belief that some were created for destruction and therefore salvation is not available to them, yet still they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never offered to them in the first place.

On the other hand, Scripture says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

I had someone recently try to tell me that "whole world" meant or
applied to only those who will inhabit the future world to come

The amount of twisting of God's Word that has to be done to come to such conclusions is rather astounding.

amen chrirt died for even the worst sin of the worst most unbelieving person that’s exactly why rejecting him is what determines ones destiny.

He’s the only propitiation for our sins if we reject Jesus we’ve rejected the only atonement mankind has been given by God the only one that actually stones for sin

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’ve all already sinned and the only answer to that is to accept what God has offered to save us the fact that it is for all mankind leaves man without excuse to reject him as God made him known in scripture

We can reject Jesus and his judgement or we can accept Jesus and his judgement that’s what will determine our eternity even the worst person who doesn’t believe will stand before him and answer for their deeds

we can repent and have those sins remitted or reject repentance offered in the gospel and answer for them At judgement in Christ God has made a way for us to be saved if we reject him then we have to answer God with no atonement for sin

it’s for all the world

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[wintersrain]

In fairness the world and "all men" couldn't the contextof his predestination of those he planned to save.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his
Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

He continues

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Calvin seemed to stop at the points of scripture that started to complete his ideas, but started to bring his conclusions into question at the same time showing there was more to it

notice how belief saves but rejection of belief condemns there are children of the devil in the world and children of God in the world there is wheat and there are tares

tares are destined for burning but wheat is destined for harvesting

 

[reneweddaybyday]

interesting the title of the thread is not "The joy of God's succinctness"

1 Corinthians 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

substitute "Calvin" and "Arminius" (or any other man) for Paul and Apollos and we've got the same issue today as what was going on when Paul wrote the letter to the church at Corinth (i.e. carnal believers). kinda sad, really.


Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.




.

 

[Magenta]

He continues

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Calvin seemed to stop at the points of scripture that started to complete his ideas, but started to bring his conclusions into question at the same time showing there was more to it

notice how belief saves but rejection of belief condemns there are children of the devil in the world and children of God in the world there is wheat and there are tares

tares are destined for burning but wheat is destined for harvesting

We were all enemies of God and children of wrath at some point...

All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging
its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3

Colossians 1:21-22

 

[Rhomphaeam]

The problem with Calvinism (as I see it) is the built-in belief that some were created for destruction and therefore salvation is not available to them, yet still they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never offered to them in the first place.

In a sense, sister, your comment begs a question that is linked to the Galatians 3:1 phonology.

Calvin wrote in a phonological meaning. Yet he was actually an extremely emotional person. He was also a former Roman Catholic and passed the bar to be a lawyer. So he was always predicated to avoiding an emotional charge. Which infers that he had to have a source of reliance outside of his emotional mind - and yet wholly favoured the rational mind. Neither of which intrinsically can establish faith. Hence the Institutes (3.7.1) directive for his seminal work, The Institutes of the Christian Religion. Yet he asserts in that directive an implication that may be easily missed. Calvin cites this conditional inference - to the bidding of the Holy Spirit.

So why am I saying this in this way in reflection of your post? My reason draws to one of five reasons I had for posting the thread and naming it the way I did and by first citing Galatians 3:1 as the source text.

Your comment raises an important point, which as you say is attributed to Calvin. Namely, limited atonement. And you say, "yet still they will be punished for failing to make a choice that was never offered to them in the first place." Which is the character of the point Paul is making when he says, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. You see how was Christ before their eyes publicly crucified? How is that possible? Faith comes by hearing - and I don't imagine that Paul was speaking about a bit of theatre where a show was afoot. He was speaking about the moment that Christ was visible to the Galatians. and became faith. Faith produces an ability to see Christ - by faith. Were that not the case then Calvin would not have set down his institute, "Let this therefore be the first step, that a man depart from himself in order that he may apply the whole force of his ability in the service of the Lord. I call 'service' not only what lies in obedience to God's Word but what turns the mind of man, empty of its own carnal sense, wholly to the bidding of God's Spirit." Institutes (3.7.1)

So the issue is not whether the Galatians had a choice - it was whether they had Christ portrayed publicly before their eyes. And hence why I predicated Calvin with my own babble the way I did.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We were all enemies of God and children of wrath at some point...

All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging
its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3

Colossians 1:21-22

amen and so the church is instructed to act on that faith

“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:5-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I think Calvin stopped with “ God sees you as righteous already “ but the Bible is saying Press into those things set before you to which you are called so that faith becomes apparent in our deeds.

I think we have to believe right first and the. The actions will come according to faith, but the goal is a change of the person and thier deeds. God is calling to sinners as though they were righteous in order to make them righteous in deed and truth

“Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken,

So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:16-25‬ ‭

in the end if we believe what god said in Christ like Abraham did we will obey what God said like Abraham did. and so faith is made manifest in our deeds whether right or wrong .

coming from what was not ( a sinner ) to what is to be ( a child of God )created in true righteousness and holiness which is evident in our deeds

He’s calling to sinners telling us we’re forgiven and calling us into righteousness and truth calling us to be what we weren’t before

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Do I believe Calvin was sincere in his faith? Yes.

Do I agree with his assertations concerning his T.U.L.I.P. theory? No.

To each his own I suppose..........

Despite how it may seem - I am using Calvin because his words of themselves are unmistakable in their meaning. And I have limited his words to just a single Institute from his theological treatise with no expectation that I will have to cite anything else of Calvin. I would hope that brethren will be able to see that meaning in Institutes (3.7.1) as cited and at least sense the meaning I will emphasis and not be concerned for the so-called TULIP framework. My intention is not to promote or uphold Calvinism or Calvin. So whilst it is inevitable that some of the TULIP anachronous meanings will have to be addressed as they are raised, I won't be raising any at all.