Did Paul sin regularly?

[Runningman]

Romans 7:13-25 where Paul described his present-tense struggle with physically sinning, though spiritually he did not want to sin, is not going anywhere. I see a lot of people uncomfortable with that, but I think as we mature in the word we come to accept these harder to absorb truths.

 

[Runningman]

What then are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? God forbid. Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you yield yourselves as obedient slaves either of sin which leads to death or of obedience which leads to righteousness. But thanks be to God that you who were once slaves to sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed.

Is this the literal truth that Paul was experiencing or is he lying? Yes or no.

Romans 7:13-25 KJV
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Evmur]

Right. Fundamentally everything is either the truth or a lie. Of course we should always assume Paul is telling the truth. When Paul said he struggled with sin, using present tense language, we must believe that at the time of that writing, as a God-ordained apostle, hand-picked by Christ on the road to Damascus, Paul was still struggling with sin like all humans do.

Paul speaks in the present when he says "I am the chieftest of sinners" he speaks in the present tense when he pleads "who will deliver me from this body of death" and also when he cries "thanks be to God through Christ Jesus ..."

 

[Runningman]

Paul speaks in the present when he says "I am the chieftest of sinners" he speaks in the present tense when he pleads "who will deliver me from this body of death" and also when he cries "thanks be to God through Christ Jesus ..."

He also spoke present tense here:

Romans 7
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

 

[Evmur]

Is this the literal truth that Paul was experiencing or is he lying? Yes or no.

Romans 7:13-25 KJV
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Plain as day, he is speaking to those [verse 1 ch. 7] to those who know the law. He doesn't once speak here of being under grace. Paul as apostle was not under the law so he could not be speaking about his present case.

It is all about Saul under the law.

 

[Evmur]

He also spoke present tense here:

Romans 7
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Christians use this to comfort themselves in their backsliding. [I am not condemning, just saying]

 

[Evmur]

Is this the literal truth that Paul was experiencing or is he lying? Yes or no.

Romans 7:13-25 KJV
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul teaches us we are dead to sin, he himself was crucified with Christ. In Romans 7 we see him as Saul very much alive to sin and sin very much alive to him.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I'm one of those people who voted yes there. I must admit I laughed too! I would rather believe that Paul was not a regular sinner, but I am forced into that conclusion due to his numerous confessions. The main determining scripture being Romans 7. I believe Paul was really saying he struggled with fleshly sin.

Really? - And I hear what you're saying. Did you know that Paul asked us to model his character (in different ways) about 18 times in his writings? His asking us to model himself as he modeled Christ is very much part of the reason for why I concluded that what he was saying regarding his "sin" is proportionate to his pre-Transformed life. Also, I found it important to know the difference between human flesh and Spiritual Flesh (sarx). I'm not suggesting that Paul never sinned, for there is such a concept as "unintentional sin," plus, we do see him make an apology for his outburst of anger when being threatened to be struck. In the end, I think it would be hypocritical for him to teach about Transformation if he wasn't actually Transformed.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I did not know whether to laugh or cry. Christians really believe Paul was caught in some sin which overpowered him.

I hear you. And this is why I believe it is so critical to read his Written Work in a timeline, chronological order. If we do that, we can see his Spiritual growth . . . with 2nd Timothy being his final letter. In 2nd Timothy, we don't find Paul smashing Timothy into the ground, though it appears that Timothy was possibly failing in his duties to eradicate the two false, renegade teachers that had over-taken the church. Looking at Galatians and first and second Corinthians, Paul really knew how to "flame" people. Paul wasn't doing that with Timothy, which I find to be both beautiful and interesting.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Paul said he struggled with sin in Romans 7. I figured it would be safer to just assume he was telling the truth because the alternative is he lied, which I don't believe he did. Which one do you say he did?

Peter himself stated that the things Paul wrote about were difficult for many to understand. I think that as Paul wrote about the Mysterious Plan of God in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3, I believe that the way in which he wrote was to keep the Mysterious Plan of God a Mystery, even though he was "unpacking" it for us in his writings. In conclusion, and as always, I would say that a hardcore study of Spiritual Circumcision casts light on the meaning of Paul's Words in Romans 7.

 

[Magenta]

Paul speaks in the present when he says "I am the chieftest of sinners" he speaks in the present tense when he pleads "who will deliver me from this body of death" and also when he cries "thanks be to God through Christ Jesus ..."

Scripture writers used hyperbole to make/underscore/emphasize certain points they were making.

Jesus even did the same

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Paul teaches us we are dead to sin, he himself was crucified with Christ. In Romans 7 we see him as Saul very much alive to sin and sin very much alive to him.

I think that you will agree: Unless a person has undergone Spiritual Transformation, they can only interpret Romans 7 in one way . . . especially as they look at the condition of their own life, which is utterly sinful, and then have only but one choice which is to conclude that Paul, too, must have been utterly sinful.

I used to attend church intoxicated, even being a member of the worship team . . . absolutely under the influence of intoxicants. I used to frequent strip clubs. I used to curse like a sailor. I had a hardcore sex and porn addiction. I had only one option but to conclude that Paul was just like me . . . unable to control himself to the degree where he would say, "The things I want to do, I cannot. The things I don't want to do, I do." I look at that passage and I said, "Yes! That's me! That is absolutely me!" And then I sustained a Powerful Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and my life began to change outside of my own choice, decision, and control. Now, I say, "The things I used to do, I no longer do. The things I always wanted to do, I now do."

We cannot look upon the condition of our own lives to determine the meaning of Scripture. Instead, we need to consider Scripture to determine the condition of our lives . . . our Spiritual Life.

John 8:44 NLT - "For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies."

If we are to conclude that Paul was out of control, then passages like the above would conclude that Satan was still Paul's Spiritual Father, and that is impossible.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes, Paul sinned regularly and uncontrollably. I have come to believe that he did not sin willfully, though.

Wow. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense within the context of Genesis chapter 1 to Revelation chapter 22. It breaks my heart that you view Paul in such a way.

 

[Runningman]

Wow. I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense within the context of Genesis chapter 1 to Revelation chapter 22. It breaks my heart that you view Paul in such a way.

Don't be heartbroken as I assure you that this makes perfect sense once we dig into the Word. I humbly submit it to you that yourself and most people probably don't understand Paul the way he really is.

Let's look at how Paul viewed sin and I'll summarize for conciseness.

Romans 7:13-25
Paul admits to his struggles with sin AFTER converting to Christianity.

1Corinthians 3:1-3
Paul said that those who are carnal, unspiritual, who envying, causing strife, and divisions can be IN CHRIST.

2 Corinthians 12:9
Paul glories in his "infirmities." Some versions say "weaknesses." But this word, infirmities, is about temptation and sin.
Hebrews 4:15
Do you believe Paul wrote Hebrews? If yes then he said that infirmities are temptations and sin.

1 Timothy 1:15
Paul admits to being the worst sinner. In his words the "chief sinner" before converting to Christianity.

There is probably more. This is just what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me over the past few months.

 

[Runningman]

Peter himself stated that the things Paul wrote about were difficult for many to understand. I think that as Paul wrote about the Mysterious Plan of God in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3, I believe that the way in which he wrote was to keep the Mysterious Plan of God a Mystery, even though he was "unpacking" it for us in his writings. In conclusion, and as always, I would say that a hardcore study of Spiritual Circumcision casts light on the meaning of Paul's Words in Romans 7.

Okay Sounds great. I study the New Testament daily. Where do you recommend I begin my study on Spiritual Circumcision?

 

[Runningman]

Really? - And I hear what you're saying. Did you know that Paul asked us to model his character (in different ways) about 18 times in his writings? His asking us to model himself as he modeled Christ is very much part of the reason for why I concluded that what he was saying regarding his "sin" is proportionate to his pre-Transformed life. Also, I found it important to know the difference between human flesh and Spiritual Flesh (sarx). I'm not suggesting that Paul never sinned, for there is such a concept as "unintentional sin," plus, we do see him make an apology for his outburst of anger when being threatened to be struck. In the end, I think it would be hypocritical for him to teach about Transformation if he wasn't actually Transformed.

Well we're all varying degrees of hypocrites. Some of us have logs in our eyes but absolutely everyone has at least one speck in their eye. Don't they?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay Sounds great. I study the New Testament daily. Where do you recommend I begin my study on Spiritual Circumcision?

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that needs to go into this being heard and believed

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and if we accept and believe he accomplishes this

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which is what circumcision of the heart means we need those bad ideas and beliefs and lusts of the world cut out of our heart through being taught the truth . Which is the word of Jesus Christ

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s why salvation when summed up is this simple

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Youll Notice how many explainations people come up with but Jesus has the right explaination of all these things and has sent it to all of us the same gospel he preached when he lived in the flesh among us is salvstion for those who accept and believe which is what circumcises the evil in mans heart and fills us with righteousness in our heart

This is the instrument that changes our heart just what your doing focusing your faith and hope in the gospel and sharp and quickening word of Jesus Christ

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

To believe the sharp double edged sword which came out of Jesus mouth circumcises the heart and saves the soul

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Don't be heartbroken as I assure you that this makes perfect sense once we dig into the Word. I humbly submit it to you that yourself and most people probably don't understand Paul the way he really is.

Let's look at how Paul viewed sin and I'll summarize for conciseness.

Romans 7:13-25
Paul admits to his struggles with sin AFTER converting to Christianity.

1Corinthians 3:1-3
Paul said that those who are carnal, unspiritual, who envying, causing strife, and divisions can be IN CHRIST.

2 Corinthians 12:9
Paul glories in his "infirmities." Some versions say "weaknesses." But this word, infirmities, is about temptation and sin.
Hebrews 4:15
Do you believe Paul wrote Hebrews? If yes then he said that infirmities are temptations and sin.

1 Timothy 1:15
Paul admits to being the worst sinner. In his words the "chief sinner" before converting to Christianity.

There is probably more. This is just what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me over the past few months.

I appreciate the efforts you put into this, but sir, I see each of those passages in a different light than yourself. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into them, for to be honest, I've discussed these passages so many times now that I'm just burnt out on it. I've been here for nearly a year, now, and I've become a broken record and worse, I've become a burden to the group, here. I have never been more hated by the collective group, here, than ever before. So, on this basis, I'm going to pass on commenting.

But know this: I do respect you as a person.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well we're all varying degrees of hypocrites. Some of us have logs in our eyes but absolutely everyone has at least one speck in their eye. Don't they?

That's a good question. I don't think that there are any "perfect" people in a physical world, but we are to be perfectly responsible. If a person is perfectly responsible for their errors, I'm not sure that they can be called a hypocrite.

 

[Runningman]

I appreciate the efforts you put into this, but sir, I see each of those passages in a different light than yourself. Unfortunately, I don't have time to go into them, for to be honest, I've discussed these passages so many times now that I'm just burnt out on it. I've been here for nearly a year, now, and I've become a broken record and worse, I've become a burden to the group, here. I have never been more hated by the collective group, here, than ever before. So, on this basis, I'm going to pass on commenting.

But know this: I do respect you as a person.

Okay I guess we just see the scriptures in different ways and that's okay with me. I still respect Paul and listen to him and don't expect him to be perfect. Actually, I would probably reject his writings if at any point he claimed Christlike perfection. We're talking about Paul, though, formerly known as Saul.

Saul was the type that resorted to hunting people down and killing them over disagreements. Let that sink if for a second. After all the heresies and blasphemies documented on this message board, I would say people are doing good to just agree to disagree and part ways. Not Saul, though. He made it his mission to kill Christians at first. It's no surprise to me that he had a lot of problems to work out, but yes praise Christ for saving him. (Acts 7 - 9)

Paul is the story of the worst kind of person being saved by Christ. This isn't an accident in my opinion, but rather a story of God's love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness. There's a lot of messed up people in the world and if they can see that even a person like Paul can be saved then they can be saved too.