Anti-Religion Nonsense, Religion v. Relationship Replaces Gospel Message.

[Amanuensis]

'Religion' and 'relationship' aren't opposites. This is a false dichotomy, also, as if they two were opposed to each other or at odds somehow.

But like I say, I chose not to participate in the redefining of the word religion-- or at least not the side of the redefiners. It did not sit well with me when I was 9 or 10, and when I encountered it again in it's full blown form to me in my 20's, it sounded stupid and confusing. I still think that way. Some people who talk about it have a valid point and IMO a very bad way of expressing it. Some have invalid points. They've turned this anti-religion thing into another religious idea that competes with a Biblical understanding of how our faith should operate.

Some people are really religious about the idea that we have to believe and repeat this religion rhetoric. If you write against it, they treat it as if you are attacking something holy. It is a very religious thing for them. I understand with this new version of/replacement for the gospel-- that you give this anti-religion speech then say pray and get told you are saved saved, people treat the anti-religion speech as something holy. It can be a part of their religion.

As far as relationship goes, if we are talking to unbelievers, we can follow apostolic example-- be reconciled to God. That's how we get relationship. We don't get relationship because we hear about relationship. is good and religion is bad. We get into right relationship with God through grace through believing the Gospel. We do not have to tell people religion is bad. That doesn't save anyone. We need to tell them about Christ, about His sufferings, His resurrection, and repentance and remission of sin through His names. That's what Jesus talked about when He told the apostles about preaching to the nations in Luke 22. In Matthew 28, he wanted them to go, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and to observe all things 'whatsover I have commanded you.'

We should focus on the actual Gospel in the Bible not all these evangelical cliches and rabbit trails against religion or wonderful plans for people's lives or how 'personal' everything is.[/QUOTE

Good stuff.

 

[studentoftheword]

Even the evangelist I mentioned who said Christianity was man reaching out to God-- what is wrong with that?

Now here is the thing that this evangelist has wrong --------Man reaching out to God means nothing--God's Face is turned from unbelievers -------Iniquity and sin blocks man from God so there is no way for man to reach out to God and be heard -----and that is scriptural ---so this evangelist is ignorant of Scripture ----

God Reaches out to man and Draws man to Him -----Man cannot reach out to God draw God to him -----------

So there is a lot wrong with what this evangelist is spouting off ---it is false Doctrine and I can prove that with scripture ----just saying


Isaiah 59
Sin and Redemption
59 Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

John 6:44
AMP
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me];

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Etymologically, the root of jealousy is zeal: "passionate ardor in pursuit
of an objective or course of action;" "tolerating no unfaithfulness."

The implications and connotations are more important than etymology. God is not a religious “zealot” commanding you to do his bidding. He’s a loving father who demands your exclusive devotion to Him. His jealousy is a holy, righteous jealousy that keeps you from worshiping other idols. This is one of the most brilliant translations in the entire Bible.

 

[Magenta]

The implications and connotations are more important than etymology. God is not a religious “zealot” commanding you to do his bidding. He’s a loving father who demands your exclusive devotion to Him. His jealousy is a holy, righteous jealousy that keeps you from worshiping other idols. This is one of the most brilliant translations in the entire Bible.

You cannot have implications and connotations without proper definitions.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Monkey see, Monkey do. Like when preachers are teaching Eph 6 about the whole armor of God and they say that there was no armor for the back because you are not supposed to run from the battle. That is just weird. You can look at examples of Roman armor that were part of the breastplate and they covered the back too. Some in one piece and some in two but they had armor on the back. Who ever thought that was true when they heard it preached? I suspected it as wrong the first time I heard it. And it still gets repeated to this day.

Did that pastor forget “flee from sexual immorality?” That one’s real hard, though. Even king David couldn’t resist the beauty of Bethsheba when she was bathing under the moonlight in all of her glory.

 

[presidente]

Now here is the thing that this evangelist has wrong --------Man reaching out to God means nothing--God's Face is turned from unbelievers -------Iniquity and sin blocks man from God so there is no way for man to reach out to God and be heard -----and that is scriptural ---so this evangelist is ignorant of Scripture ----

Hmm, I think you missed who was saying what. The evangelist who said religion was men reaching out to God seemed to be mildly against the word 'religion' before all these other cliches grew up around it to replace the Gospel, or before I heard them.

Do you think, "Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship." is the gospel or part of it?

In another post, I quoted where Paul told about how God had done all these things for men that they might reach for him, and find him. I also quoted from Jeremiah where God told Israel to seek Him and they would find Him if they sought Him with all their hearts.

Unbelievers need the Gospel to be reconciled to God. But they can reach out to God as God's grace enables them to through the Gospel. And believers can reach out to God, in prayer, for example, as God works in us to will and to do according to his pleasure. So if his (made-up, not in the dictionary, non-historical-Christian, confusing to regular speakers of the English language who do not know the new made up lingo) definition of religion was 'man reaching out to God' that doesn't make religion all bad.

God Reaches out to man and Draws man to Him -----Man cannot reach out to God draw God to him -----------

If you have a toddler and put your arms out to pick him up, he might lift up his arms to. He reached out to you. We love God because He loved us first. The verse I quoted from Paul's message to pagans in Athens was about men groping/reaching for God, and doesn't say they heard the Gospel.


Of course-- these are just definitions of 'religion' that preachers and others made up. And we can confuse the living daylights out of someone if we try to 'share the gospel' with them, then go off on this irrelevant tangent of 'religion' being bad when they have no clue what these recent made up definitions are.

Isaiah 59
Sin and Redemption
59 Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

John 6:44
AMP
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him [giving him the desire to come to Me];

Where is the contradiction between what I wrote--or what the evangelist who I disagreed with said-- and what you wrote?

Here is what I suspect. I think you probably grew up in a church or were around Christians and heard so many anti-religion-pro-relationship speeches that you think it must be typical of Christianity, that it must be holy, so you are just trying to find a way to argue for it because it just might feel uncomfortable to you to think this kind of talk may be a distraction to most people. Do you think 'not a religion; it's a relationship' is the Gospel? Why isn't that speech in the Bible when the apostles preached the Gospel? Why didn't Jesus say to preach that in Matthew 28 or Luke 22? Why didn't Peter preach it in Acts 2, and why isn't it in any of the other evangelistic messages in Acts? Why isn't it the epistles or Paul's summary of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 in the opening verses? Why does scripture have promises of salvation that do not mention those concepts?

 

[presidente]

The implications and connotations are more important than etymology. God is not a religious “zealot” commanding you to do his bidding.

Did anyone say that? Zeal and zealout have different connotations. Jesus had zeal for God's house, but there were zealot revolutionaries in those days, too. Taking the gospels together, I'm guessing Jesus paired Simon Zealot with Judas Iscariot when they went out preaching. There are some scholars who think 'Iscariot' might mean 'throat slitter' and might refer to another of these revolutionary groups like the Zealot group. I think those groups might have been something they'd been involved in prior, if that is what the word refers to.

I'd want to see a derivation that shows zeal and jealousy are from the same source, btw. I could see how z and j could come in from different languages differently to represent the same original word in another language, kind of like yard and garden, but I am unaware of any words where that happened in English.

 

[Amanuensis]

Hmm, I think you missed who was saying what. The evangelist who said religion was men reaching out to God seemed to be mildly against the word 'religion' before all these other cliches grew up around it to replace the Gospel, or before I heard them.

Do you think, "Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship." is the gospel or part of it?

In another post, I quoted where Paul told about how God had done all these things for men that they might reach for him, and find him. I also quoted from Jeremiah where God told Israel to seek Him and they would find Him if they sought Him with all their hearts.

Unbelievers need the Gospel to be reconciled to God. But they can reach out to God as God's grace enables them to through the Gospel. And believers can reach out to God, in prayer, for example, as God works in us to will and to do according to his pleasure. So if his (made-up, not in the dictionary, non-historical-Christian, confusing to regular speakers of the English language who do not know the new made up lingo) definition of religion was 'man reaching out to God' that doesn't make religion all bad.



If you have a toddler and put your arms out to pick him up, he might lift up his arms to. He reached out to you. We love God because He loved us first. The verse I quoted from Paul's message to pagans in Athens was about men groping/reaching for God, and doesn't say they heard the Gospel.


Of course-- these are just definitions of 'religion' that preachers and others made up. And we can confuse the living daylights out of someone if we try to 'share the gospel' with them, then go off on this irrelevant tangent of 'religion' being bad when they have no clue what these recent made up definitions are.


Where is the contradiction between what I wrote--or what the evangelist who I disagreed with said-- and what you wrote?

Here is what I suspect. I think you probably grew up in a church or were around Christians and heard so many anti-religion-pro-relationship speeches that you think it must be typical of Christianity, that it must be holy, so you are just trying to find a way to argue for it because it just might feel uncomfortable to you to think this kind of talk may be a distraction to most people. Do you think 'not a religion; it's a relationship' is the Gospel? Why isn't that speech in the Bible when the apostles preached the Gospel? Why didn't Jesus say to preach that in Matthew 28 or Luke 22? Why didn't Peter preach it in Acts 2, and why isn't it in any of the other evangelistic messages in Acts? Why isn't it the epistles or Paul's summary of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 in the opening verses? Why does scripture have promises of salvation that do not mention those concepts?

I think you are right. I think "Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship." is a religious sacred cow to modern evangelical subculture.

 

[Magenta]

I'd want to see a derivation that shows zeal and jealousy are from the same source, btw. I could see how z and j could come in from different languages differently to represent the same original word in another language, kind of like yard and garden, but I am unaware of any words where that happened in English.

Link

 

[studentoftheword]

Do you think, "Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship." is the gospel or part of it?

Christianity is a Man Made Religion ----it is not any Religion made by God -------Christianity can never give you a relationship with God --Only receiving Jesus can do that ------and receiving Jesus has nothing to do with the Religion of Christianity -----

I have a very strong personal Relationship with God -----and I received Jesus in my Heart in my house not in any Church or Religion ---I am of No Religion ---I follow the Way ------and I have had great success in my life by Following the Way -----I am living a Healthy ---Happy ---Joyful -----Peaceful ---wonderful Life ---with no Christianity involved -----I live by the Word -----

I came to Christ after the Padre did an exorcism throughout my Home ----I had a Spiritual entity in my home --I never believed in ghosts or demons ---- I hadn't gone to Church in years ----- I was living in a PMQ on a base and my husband was away at sea for 6 months ---I started noticing triangular shaped lights covering my livingroom ceiling ----my doors would open on their own when they were closed ---my telephone would ring and no one was there ----I was hearing loud Snapping sounds in thr house ---I woke up one night and my closet door was glowing red ----my son who was 5 was getting scared ---so I went to see the padre on the base ----he ask me if I had been using any Ouija boards ---if I had any Buddha's in my house --if I was playing with Tarot cards ----or seeing fortunate tellers ---or if I had been involved in any séances I said no to all --He said well whoever was in the house before you was dabbling in the occult ---He said he would have to do an exorcism through the house ---and he did that --and everything stopped ----So I now Firmly believe in demons and he gave me a Bible and I stared to read it and received Jesus as my personal Lord and Saviour in my home -----then I started going to church ----So the Religion of Christianity had nothing to do with my conversion and I do not follow any of the religions of Christianity ----I follow the Word ----Period ----The Word is Jesus and the Word is Alive and Active ----there is no Religion of Christianity needed to receive or to follow Jesus who is the Word ----Be a Doer of the Word not just a Hearer of the Word -----

 

[presidente]

Christianity is a Man Made Religion ----it is not any Religion made by God -------Christianity can never give you a relationship with God --Only receiving Jesus can do that ------and receiving Jesus has nothing to do with the Religion of Christianity ---

--

I think I get what you are saying, But if you say that to an unbeliever, they might start off thinking you are not a Christian, and as you speak on, be confused and have no idea what you are talking about, or just guess and try to figure it out. 'Christianity' has 'Christ' in it. Why would we treat the word as if it were something bad? Maybe you have heard preachers use the word the way you do. I've heard that kind of stuff with 'religion', but do not remember hearing it with 'Christianity.'

I'm glad to hear you go the problem with your house fixed. I know a man who said when he was young, his family lived in this house. I don't know if they bought it or rented it-- but doors locking, a light that came on when they were on the way home and many other things. While he was talking, he figured out why his parents moved from there to a trailer for a little while.

 

[studentoftheword]

Well I will be telling people that they do not need any Religion to know Christ ---all they need is a Bible which is Christ and tells you who Christ is ---How He works and what He expects of all His true Followers -----Christianity can't give you a personal Relationship with God nor can it give you The Promises of God --nor can it give you the right Faith needed to come to Christ --on the Bible can do that --and the Bible is all a person needs to come to Christ ------

An unbeliever first need to understand they are a SINNER and needs Jesus to set then Free from their Sins ---Christianity can't do that -----God has to draw the unbelieving person to the want to know Him -----Christianity can't do that -------The Bible gives you everything you need to become a believer and have a personal relationship with God ----Christianity can't do that ------- the Bible gives you what you need to do to access God's promises and manifest them in your life --Christianity can't do that

So speak as you will but your grasping at straws

and giving people false hope by telling people that all they need is the Religion of Christianity and they will be saved and will have a great life ----without God fist drawing the person in --they are away from God ----and the scriptures are very clear on saying that statement ---

Faith and Repentance is key in having a personal relationship with God and Christianity will not give you either ---only God's word ----WHO IS CHRIST will give you that -----


Lesson 14: Why Religion Can’t Save You (John 3:1-7)

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-14-why-religion-can-t-save-you-john-31-7

 

[presidente]

and giving people false hope by telling people that all they need is the Religion of Christianity and they will be saved and will have a great life ----without God fist drawing the person in --they are away from God ----and the scriptures are very clear on saying that statement ---

Or someone might say that true Christianity involves being saved by faith in Jesus Christ. I hear 'Christianity' explained in different ways. If term isn't a Biblical word, I try not to get stuck on a definition of it that might confuse people, and I want to explain things. They also need to know the 'Biblical terminology' stuff, a lot of times, to have it explained. I spoke with a Muslim, and he said 'my holy spirit....' and I think he meant we were calling our own spirits holy. That conversation was many years ago.

 

[studentoftheword]

---NOT even Your so called True Religion can give you the way --the truth --and the life --only the Word --who is Jesus can do that -------and the only way that happens is to receive Jesus by and through your Faith in Him and His Word --Who is Jesus -----not through any Christianity Man made Religion -----

 

[presidente]

---NOT even Your so called True Religion can give you the way --the truth --and the life --only the Word --who is Jesus can do that -------and the only way that happens is to receive Jesus by and through your Faith in Him and His Word --Who is Jesus -----not through any Christianity Man made Religion -----

View attachment 237045

I don't use the same jargon, and I think it can confuse people who aren't familiar with it.

Christianity is named after Jesus.

 

[studentoftheword]

Christianity is named after Jesus.

YOU WISH ------again your Grasping at Straws ----

The Unbelieving Gentiles made it Contain Christ--they came up with the name at Antioch----- Jesus was in heaven --so He had nothing to do with it -----




And by the way Christ only means anointed one ---Christ is not Jesus last name ---



So Christ in Christianity only means anointed one -----

The Holy Spirit indwelling in us is the Christ -----and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus -----the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person of the Trinity ------Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity---

Know that Acts is the first Chapter of the New Testament -----Matthew ---Mark --Luke and John ---are all under the Old Covenant of the law ---Jesus came under the Old Testament -----the New Testament starts in Acts --Jesus is in Heaven sitting on the right hand of this Father when the Gentiles creates the name of Christian -------

 

[presidente]

YOU WISH ------again your Grasping at Straws ----

The Unbelieving Gentiles made it Contain Christ--they came up with the name at Antioch----- Jesus was in heaven --so He had nothing to do with it -----

You are reading a negative connotation into it. It's possible that is the case for some people who said it. Peter also says if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed.... Jesus sent Peter, so if Peter called such a man a Christian, why should we have a problem with it. See I Peter 4:16. It does not say who called them Christians in Antioch in the verse you quoted either.

View attachment 237059

And by the way Christ only means anointed one ---Christ is not Jesus last name ---

I know that. I suspect a lot of people on forums like this do.

 

[wintersrain]

YOU WISH ------again your Grasping at Straws ----

The Unbelieving Gentiles made it Contain Christ--they came up with the name at Antioch----- Jesus was in heaven --so He had nothing to do with it -----

View attachment 237059


And by the way Christ only means anointed one ---Christ is not Jesus last name ---

View attachment 237058

So Christ in Christianity only means anointed one -----

The Holy Spirit indwelling in us is the Christ -----and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus -----the Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person of the Trinity ------Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Trinity---

Know that Acts is the first Chapter of the New Testament -----Matthew ---Mark --Luke and John ---are all under the Old Covenant of the law ---Jesus came under the Old Testament -----the New Testament starts in Acts --Jesus is in Heaven sitting on the right hand of this Father when the Gentiles creates the name of Christian -------


View attachment 237056

You are so angry.

 

[Amanuensis]

--

I think I get what you are saying, But if you say that to an unbeliever, they might start off thinking you are not a Christian, and as you speak on, be confused and have no idea what you are talking about, or just guess and try to figure it out. 'Christianity' has 'Christ' in it. Why would we treat the word as if it were something bad? Maybe you have heard preachers use the word the way you do. I've heard that kind of stuff with 'religion', but do not remember hearing it with 'Christianity.'

I'm glad to hear you go the problem with your house fixed. I know a man who said when he was young, his family lived in this house. I don't know if they bought it or rented it-- but doors locking, a light that came on when they were on the way home and many other things. While he was talking, he figured out why his parents moved from there to a trailer for a little while.

Well I will be telling people that they do not need any Religion to know Christ ---all they need is a Bible which is Christ and tells you who Christ is ---How He works and what He expects of all His true Followers -----Christianity can't give you a personal Relationship with God nor can it give you The Promises of God --nor can it give you the right Faith needed to come to Christ --on the Bible can do that --and the Bible is all a person needs to come to Christ ------

An unbeliever first need to understand they are a SINNER and needs Jesus to set then Free from their Sins ---Christianity can't do that -----God has to draw the unbelieving person to the want to know Him -----Christianity can't do that -------The Bible gives you everything you need to become a believer and have a personal relationship with God ----Christianity can't do that ------- the Bible gives you what you need to do to access God's promises and manifest them in your life --Christianity can't do that

So speak as you will but your grasping at straws

and giving people false hope by telling people that all they need is the Religion of Christianity and they will be saved and will have a great life ----without God fist drawing the person in --they are away from God ----and the scriptures are very clear on saying that statement ---

Faith and Repentance is key in having a personal relationship with God and Christianity will not give you either ---only God's word ----WHO IS CHRIST will give you that -----


Lesson 14: Why Religion Can’t Save You (John 3:1-7)

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-14-why-religion-can-t-save-you-john-31-7

1 Peter 4: 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler. 16Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.

Peter was calling himself and all believers 'Christians' when he wrote this, and intended it in a positive way.

Notice how he says "glorify God in that name" One who is called Christian should live worthy of that name. It is a glorious name.

They were first called Christians in Antioch in no way suggests that it was a negative connotation.

When Luke wrote this in Acts 11:26 it was already being used to describe believers. Luke is telling us when it began. Luke, along with Peter considered himself a "Christian." Because they were followers of Christ.

Following Christ does make you a Christian. Following Christ or becoming a Christian will result in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

If you wanted to tell someone that just "Calling yourself a Christian" does not mean that you are one, then say that.

That people can understand much easier.

You don't want to say that "Being a Christian won't save you" because that would only be a true statement if one changed the definition of the word Christian to something that Christian does not mean. If you do that, no one will understand what you are talking about even if you try and explain it.

I am pretty sure that "Christianity can give you a personal relationship with Jesus" would be an accurate statement if one is using the correct definition of the word Christianity.

I am trying to help you here, not argue. If you don't receive what I have said as good advice, I am not going to reply with any further posts. I wasn't going to reply at all, but thought it might be helpful to someone because this is an issue in the church today.

People saying things that don't communicate very well because they are upset with hypocrites.

 

[studentoftheword]

The name Christian was first used in the New Testament which starts in Acts --Jesus was not on this earth then -----it was never mention in the 4 Gospels by Jesus or any of the Disciples or by anyone else --- in Matthew --Mark --Luke or John when Jesus was alive ----it is a man made up term by unbelievers --it was used to mock the followers of Jesus --Paul decided to keep the name ------