The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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Hi pottersclay,
Not broke just not aware of some other verses.
`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light, sons of the day...` (1 Thess 5: 4 & 5)
`but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)
Not broke just not aware of some other verses.
`But you brethren are NOT in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of light, sons of the day...` (1 Thess 5: 4 & 5)
`but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)
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All you have shown is that the time will come when then will not endure sound doctrine. You have be given ample scriptures showing that the resurrection of believers is at the return of the Lord and the catching up of the saints occurs at this time as well. I don't know why you believe theology over the scripture but not my circus not my monkeys. I hope you are reconciled to the Bible . But as long as you are abiding in Christ is the important thing. I'm sure God will finish the work He began in you. Believe what you want cv5.
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FreeGrace2 said:
One can't "put a dent" in what doesn't exist, buddy. Everyone knows that.
Now, if you actually DID have a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, you'd have something.
Where NEITHER verse has Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
In fact, NO verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. There is no 'rapture'. However, Jesus WILL gather up the living believers to join with all the dead saints from heaven when He gives glorified bodies to all believers. 1 Cor 15:23
Actually, NO FACTS in your theology of end times.
Hilarious!! There's NOTHING to ignore. What proof texts do you have that prove a pretrib rapture and trip to heaven?
One thing is sure. For the pretribbers, when they FINALLY have to realize they are IN the Trib, no doubt their faith will be sorely tested.
One can't "put a dent" in what doesn't exist, buddy. Everyone knows that.
Now, if you actually DID have a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, you'd have something.
Where NEITHER verse has Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
In fact, NO verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. There is no 'rapture'. However, Jesus WILL gather up the living believers to join with all the dead saints from heaven when He gives glorified bodies to all believers. 1 Cor 15:23
Actually, NO FACTS in your theology of end times.
Hilarious!! There's NOTHING to ignore. What proof texts do you have that prove a pretrib rapture and trip to heaven?
One thing is sure. For the pretribbers, when they FINALLY have to realize they are IN the Trib, no doubt their faith will be sorely tested.
FreeGrace2 said:
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Here, "all" does mean "everyone".
However, not everyone responds to the drawing. By dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus has drawn everyone. It was the greatest expression of love in the universe. All that's left is the response. Not everyone responds to acts of love.
Ah, yes. One of the calvinist "proof texts". Let's examine the VERY NEXT VERSE. Just for context. Calvinists NEVER EVER acknowledge v.45, but it fully explains v.44.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone will be "taught by God". But only those who have listened and learned from Him will "come to Me".
So, v.44 means that God the Father draws those who have listened and learned from Him and will come to Jesus.
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Here, "all" does mean "everyone".
However, not everyone responds to the drawing. By dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus has drawn everyone. It was the greatest expression of love in the universe. All that's left is the response. Not everyone responds to acts of love.
Ah, yes. One of the calvinist "proof texts". Let's examine the VERY NEXT VERSE. Just for context. Calvinists NEVER EVER acknowledge v.45, but it fully explains v.44.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
So, everyone will be "taught by God". But only those who have listened and learned from Him will "come to Me".
So, v.44 means that God the Father draws those who have listened and learned from Him and will come to Jesus.
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide any of the "many scriptures" that actually "suggest" a pretrib rapture?
I asked a sincere question, because I don't want to be wrong any more than you want to be wrong.
But this response is just full of speculation and presumption. Since Revelation was written to "the church", it is FOR the church. All of it.
Of course it isn't the Holy Spirit. Not only is He omniscient and cannot be removed, His primary ministry is evangelism, which will occur in the Trib.
What you haven't considered is that the "restrainer" is simply moral government. There have been many nations that have been keeping the possibility of a one world government from occurring.
However, since 2020, and the Marxist takeover of the USA, there is NO LONGER any moral government that will or is even capable of keeping a one world government from rising to power. In fact, the takeover by Marxists will absolutely GUARANTEE a one world government!
So, there you have it. The "restrainer" has already been taken away. And look around you. We already have the "bear" taking over one of its neighbors (conquest!). And no doubt China is eyeing Taiwan closely for conquest. All these countries are Marxist. Think about it.
Even the verse you quoted from refutes a pretrib rapture.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, ("rapture" without trip to heaven) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation- rebellion against God) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Blue words refer to Christ's second advent.
Red words refer to the living believers being gathered up to the clouds to be "changed in th twinkling of an eye".
The "rebellion" in v.3 is usually argued to mean "apostasy".
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Since the Bible plainly states that the devil "deceives the whole world", many who claim to believe in God will 'defect' and worship the beast. That's the Tribulation.
Could you provide any of the "many scriptures" that actually "suggest" a pretrib rapture?
I asked a sincere question, because I don't want to be wrong any more than you want to be wrong.
But this response is just full of speculation and presumption. Since Revelation was written to "the church", it is FOR the church. All of it.
Of course it isn't the Holy Spirit. Not only is He omniscient and cannot be removed, His primary ministry is evangelism, which will occur in the Trib.
What you haven't considered is that the "restrainer" is simply moral government. There have been many nations that have been keeping the possibility of a one world government from occurring.
However, since 2020, and the Marxist takeover of the USA, there is NO LONGER any moral government that will or is even capable of keeping a one world government from rising to power. In fact, the takeover by Marxists will absolutely GUARANTEE a one world government!
So, there you have it. The "restrainer" has already been taken away. And look around you. We already have the "bear" taking over one of its neighbors (conquest!). And no doubt China is eyeing Taiwan closely for conquest. All these countries are Marxist. Think about it.
Even the verse you quoted from refutes a pretrib rapture.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, ("rapture" without trip to heaven) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion (Tribulation- rebellion against God) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Blue words refer to Christ's second advent.
Red words refer to the living believers being gathered up to the clouds to be "changed in th twinkling of an eye".
The "rebellion" in v.3 is usually argued to mean "apostasy".
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Since the Bible plainly states that the devil "deceives the whole world", many who claim to believe in God will 'defect' and worship the beast. That's the Tribulation.
Which one? There will be two; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
The saved will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5
The unsaved will be bodily resurrected (no glory) to appear at the GWT judgment and after being judged, be cast into the LoF, where their mortal body will die AGAIN, which is why the Bible describes the LoF as the SECOND death.
The saved will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5
The unsaved will be bodily resurrected (no glory) to appear at the GWT judgment and after being judged, be cast into the LoF, where their mortal body will die AGAIN, which is why the Bible describes the LoF as the SECOND death.
Correct.
The DoTL begins with His return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, where He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, sets up His kingdom and then rules the nations with a rod of iron.
The Bible doesn't specify, but it seems most logical that the wedding supper will occur when He sets up His kingdom. We do see the dead saints in heaven preparing for the wedding supper in Rev 19, immediately followed by accompanying the King of kings to earth to end the Trib at the battle.
The DoTL begins with His return to earth as King of kings, and Lord of lords, where He ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, sets up His kingdom and then rules the nations with a rod of iron.
The Bible doesn't specify, but it seems most logical that the wedding supper will occur when He sets up His kingdom. We do see the dead saints in heaven preparing for the wedding supper in Rev 19, immediately followed by accompanying the King of kings to earth to end the Trib at the battle.
FreeGrace2 said:
Could you provide any of the "many scriptures" that actually "suggest" a pretrib rapture?
Verses, please?
I will agree that MOST of the church will already be in heaven, as there is at least 2,000 years of believers dying that have populated heaven. But since Revelation was written TO the church, it is FOR the church. All of it. In fact, REv 22:16 closes the book with an appeal to the church. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Huh? How does any of this support a pretrib rapture with a trip to heaven?
Well, of course. This is at the Second Advent, clearly.
Could you provide any of the "many scriptures" that actually "suggest" a pretrib rapture?
Verses, please?
I will agree that MOST of the church will already be in heaven, as there is at least 2,000 years of believers dying that have populated heaven. But since Revelation was written TO the church, it is FOR the church. All of it. In fact, REv 22:16 closes the book with an appeal to the church. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Huh? How does any of this support a pretrib rapture with a trip to heaven?
Well, of course. This is at the Second Advent, clearly.
FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, NO verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. There is no 'rapture'. However, Jesus WILL gather up the living believers to join with all the dead saints from heaven when He gives glorified bodies to all believers. 1 Cor 15:23
Exactly! Yes, there will be living believers who will be "caught up" together with all the dead saints and meet in the air, where all believers, both dead and living (but the dead first) will be given glorified bodies.
But, no trip to heaven.
In fact, NO verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. There is no 'rapture'. However, Jesus WILL gather up the living believers to join with all the dead saints from heaven when He gives glorified bodies to all believers. 1 Cor 15:23
Exactly! Yes, there will be living believers who will be "caught up" together with all the dead saints and meet in the air, where all believers, both dead and living (but the dead first) will be given glorified bodies.
But, no trip to heaven.
Rapture is "just a theological term" you say? Hardly. It's the common parlance today for Strongs G726 harpazo. See Acts 8:39 (Philip), 2 Cor 12:2&4 (Paul), and Rev 12:5 for tantalizing parallel uses.
Still waiting for the post-tribbers to address the "COME UP HERE" of Rev 11:12 and the succinct, obvious, eminently scrutable identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 and 5. And the clear as a bell interpretation of Revelation 3:10, of which the play on verbs cannot possibly be more obvious.
Nothing is easier than to silence the post-tribbers. And reduce them down to babbling and raving incoherently.
Still waiting for the post-tribbers to address the "COME UP HERE" of Rev 11:12 and the succinct, obvious, eminently scrutable identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation 4 and 5. And the clear as a bell interpretation of Revelation 3:10, of which the play on verbs cannot possibly be more obvious.
Nothing is easier than to silence the post-tribbers. And reduce them down to babbling and raving incoherently.
8 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
'All' is personally defined by Jesus as both the good and the evil.
It never pays to overlook what Jesus though was important enough to speak to personally.
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
'All' is personally defined by Jesus as both the good and the evil.
It never pays to overlook what Jesus though was important enough to speak to personally.
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