Is it possible to determine God’s divine will through casting lots in the present day?

[Runningman]

Casting lots is a form of divination known as cleromancy. It’s used to determine something by rolling dice or drawing straws for example. The idea is that since since it’s random then God can manifest His will through casting lots.

In the Old Testament they cast lots as a means of determining Gods will.

To name just a few examples:

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And many more…

A post-crucifixion example of casting lots is the 11 apostles deciding who to replace Judas with through the casting of lots.

Acts 1:24-26 KJV
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So the question is can we use the casting of lots as a Biblical method to discern God’s will in the present day? Why or why not?

My answer is yea, citing the above post-crucifixion example of Christians casting lots.

 

[Oblio]

I'd say casting lots would be a lot easier than trying to get people to agree on something...anything! Lol

 

[Magenta]

A post-crucifixion example of casting lots is the 11 apostles deciding who to replace Judas with through the casting of lots.

Some take this as confirmation of Mathias being the 12th
disciple, to replace Judas. Yet Jesus had instructed them to wait.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @Runningman, I don't normally post audio or video messages of great length here, but this one, originally from Dr. R C. Sproul's radio/internet broadcast ministry (called "Renewing Your Mind") directly addresses your question (and thankfully, in the first few minutes of the broadcast .. it begins at 1 min 13 sec after the opening of the message, though what is said in the first 1 min 12 sec is also interesting to hear).

It's called God's Will and the Bible, and the entire broadcast is about 24 minutes, I believe (just FYI). It is part of a series of lectures that he gave on how to know the will of God (and it's free to listen to right now too ).

So, if you'd like to hear what he has to say (in part or in whole), click here. Then click on the start arrow at the bottom of the big green graphic that says: The Will of God.

God bless you!

~Deut

 

[TheIndianGirl]

Casting lots is a form of divination known as cleromancy. It’s used to determine something by rolling dice or drawing straws for example. The idea is that since since it’s random then God can manifest His will through casting lots.

In the Old Testament they cast lots as a means of determining Gods will.

To name just a few examples:

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And many more…

A post-crucifixion example of casting lots is the 11 apostles deciding who to replace Judas with through the casting of lots.

Acts 1:24-26 KJV
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So the question is can we use the casting of lots as a Biblical method to discern God’s will in the present day? Why or why not?

My answer is yea, citing the above post-crucifixion example of Christians casting lots.

I think the big question is, when/how long should be keep praying about an issue and when should we cast lots? I think both methods could work against each other, especially if we casted lots to get an answer when we should have waited (which may actually describe the situation of the 11 apostles selecting Mathias).

I believe since there are examples of casting lots in the OT, and nothing in the NT says we should stop casting lots, we probably are allowed to continue casting lots if we want to. However, we need to make sure the timing is right, that we are not rushing the decision.

I know people who randomly turn to a page in the Bible and point, and they believe God is speaking to them that way. This is similar to casting lots (the end result is basically the same).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Casting lots is a form of divination known as cleromancy. It’s used to determine something by rolling dice or drawing straws for example. The idea is that since since it’s random then God can manifest His will through casting lots.

In the Old Testament they cast lots as a means of determining Gods will.

To name just a few examples:

Leviticus 16:8 - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Numbers 26:25 - Moses gave territory to the 12 tribes of Israel by casting lots.

Joshua 7:14 - someone is found guilty by casting lots.

And many more…

A post-crucifixion example of casting lots is the 11 apostles deciding who to replace Judas with through the casting of lots.

Acts 1:24-26 KJV
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

So the question is can we use the casting of lots as a Biblical method to discern God’s will in the present day? Why or why not?

My answer is yea, citing the above post-crucifixion example of Christians casting lots.

Peter ran ahead like he sometimes did. Remember he was told to wait until they received the Holy Ghost ? He resorted back to the ot ways and really the way of unbelievers using the same method they used to divide christs clothing when they killed him

and then after they received the Holy Ghost Paul was chosen by Jesus himself in person , just like the other eleven apostles were the only other appearance in scripture of Jesus on earth was when he chose Paul as his apostle.

Peter was rather impetuous at times I notice before he received the Holy Ghost he swore he wouldn’t deny Jesus , jumped out of the boat having little faith

Peter is one of my favorites but before he receives the spirit he seemed to be overzealous which I believe led to his decision to cast lots before receiving the Holy Ghost remembering there are only 12 apostles of the lamb it seems it would be the specific twelve men Jesus chose himself and appointed to establish his word in the earth notice the success and prevalence of Paul in the New Testament operating as an apostle and Matthias really is an almost invisible figure in the New Testament

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if there are twelve apostles the twelfth must be Paul and the other eleven must be those chosen by Jesus in the gospels with Judas iscariot being replaced by Paul the only one to r chosen on the same way by Jesus in person himself and not by proxy or casting lots before the spirit was given

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s only my own belief but I believe the 12 apostles are the twelve men Jesus himself appointed and called and annointed me Matthias was a product of Peter stepping ahead with good intentions but acting before the spirit was given in zeal

 

[Runningman]

I'd say casting lots would be a lot easier than trying to get people to agree on something...anything! Lol

Amen. Now on to the matter of casting lots on whether or not to agree about casting lots.

 

[Magenta]

Some take this as confirmation of Mathias being the 12th
disciple, to replace Judas. Yet Jesus had instructed them to wait.

I should have said "apostle" instead of "disciple"

 

[Runningman]

Some take this as confirmation of Mathias being the 12th
disciple, to replace Judas. Yet Jesus had instructed them to wait.

Thanks for your reply, but I am not sure what you're talking about exactly. I would feel more comfortable with you giving your interpretation of what you think you're seeing before I try to reply to it.

 

[tourist]

I'd say casting lots would be a lot easier than trying to get people to agree on something...anything! Lol

...or maybe toss the dice.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for your reply, but I am not sure what you're talking about exactly. I would feel more comfortable with you giving your interpretation of what you think you're seeing before I try to reply to it.

Perhaps it is an aside, but many think that by the apostles casting lots to choose someone to replace
Judas, that made Mathias the bona fide 12th apostle, even though Jesus had instructed them to wait.
I am not trying to say casting lots is not or was not legitimately used in days gone by to determine
the will of God. However, now we have the full council of God as it pertains to salvation. Also, I do
not accept Mathias as the 12th apostle, just as I do not accept Judas' committing suicide as repentance.

 

[Runningman]

I think the big question is, when/how long should be keep praying about an issue and when should we cast lots? I think both methods could work against each other, especially if we casted lots to get an answer when we should have waited (which may actually describe the situation of the 11 apostles selecting Mathias).

I believe since there are examples of casting lots in the OT, and nothing in the NT says we should stop casting lots, we probably are allowed to continue casting lots if we want to. However, we need to make sure the timing is right, that we are not rushing the decision.

I know people who randomly turn to a page in the Bible and point, and they believe God is speaking to them that way. This is similar to casting lots (the end result is basically the same).

All of those are valid points in my opinion and of course I agree when what is said is accurate. I will affirm what you said that the New Testament never says to stop casting lots.

Maybe the deeper conversation here is how to determine God's will for one's life? Some people say that all they need is an intuition in their heart or mind and that's the Spirit talking to them. Other people say that they saw what they believe to be a sign, or had a dream, audibly hearing God, etc.

In the case of the 11 apostles choosing Matthias as their 12th apostle by casting lots, I think they did the best with what they have. It's like someone who is single looking for someone they believe God has hand selected for them when the next person who happens to come along is accepted as God's choice. That's just called faith and sometimes it's called wish fulfillment motivated by selfishness.

So how do we prevent ourselves from self-fulfilling a prophecy as opposed to God truly acting in our life? My answer is that we as people don't really control anything so when the lots fall as they may then that isn't any different than giving God opportunity to manifest His will.

 

[tourist]

Some take this as confirmation of Mathias being the 12th
disciple, to replace Judas. Yet Jesus had instructed them to wait.

I might just read about that. Maybe they jumped the gun in picking Mathias. Very interesting.

 

[Magenta]

I might just read about that. Maybe they jumped the gun in picking Mathias. Very interesting.

Jesus picked Paul. That's my take, anyways

And there is no denying that Paul was picked by Jesus

 

[Runningman]

Peter ran ahead like he sometimes did. Remember he was told to wait until they received the Holy Ghost ? He resorted back to the ot ways and really the way of unbelievers

Casting lots was not a method for the unbelievers in the OT. As I showed in the OP, God commanded Moses to cast lots in Leviticus 16:8.

Lev. 16:8 KJV
8And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

and then after they received the Holy Ghost Paul was chosen by Jesus himself in person , just like the other eleven apostles were the only other appearance in scripture of Jesus on earth was when he chose Paul as his apostle.

I don't see it as a problem that they used lots to pick Mathias as a disciple. The only thing that Jesus told them to wait on was for power when the Holy Spirit came upon them. Jesus didn't say, "Wait to pick a new apostle until you receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you."

What's a reason people would require casting lots to be unacceptable?

Peter was rather impetuous at times I notice before he received the Holy Ghost he swore he wouldn’t deny Jesus , jumped out of the boat having little faith

Peter is one of my favorites but before he receives the spirit he seemed to be overzealous which I believe led to his decision to cast lots before receiving the Holy Ghost remembering there are only 12 apostles of the lamb it seems it would be the specific twelve men Jesus chose himself and appointed to establish his word in the earth notice the success and prevalence of Paul in the New Testament operating as an apostle and Matthias really is an almost invisible figure in the New Testament

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if there are twelve apostles the twelfth must be Paul and the other eleven must be those chosen by Jesus in the gospels with Judas iscariot being replaced by Paul the only one to r chosen on the same way by Jesus in person himself and not by proxy or casting lots before the spirit was given

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s only my own belief but I believe the 12 apostles are the twelve men Jesus himself appointed and called and annointed me Matthias was a product of Peter stepping ahead with good intentions but acting before the spirit was given in zeal

As Peter said in Acts 1, there needed to be someone who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. The only two qualified people fit their needs was Joseph called Barsabas surnamed Justis and Matthias. Are you saying they were wrong to pick Matthias?

Acts 1:21 -23
21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

 

[Oblio]

...or maybe toss the dice.

That may be a different issue!

 

[Runningman]

Jesus picked Paul. That's my take, anyways

And there is no denying that Paul was picked by Jesus

And the 11 apostles believed God picked Matthias through the casting of lots. There's not denying that either.

 

[Runningman]

Perhaps it is an aside, but many think that by the apostles casting lots to choose someone to replace
Judas, that made Mathias the bona fide 12th apostle, even though Jesus had instructed them to wait.
I am not trying to say casting lots is not or was not legitimately used in days gone by to determine
the will of God. However, now we have the full council of God as it pertains to salvation. Also, I do
not accept Mathias as the 12th apostle, just as I do not accept Judas' committing suicide as repentance.

As far as I can tell, Jesus just told them to wait for the Holy Spirit:

Acts 1:4-5
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Casting lots was not a method for the unbelievers in the OT. As I showed in the OP, God commanded Moses to cast lots in Leviticus 16:8.

Lev. 16:8 KJV
8And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.




I don't see it as a problem that they used lots to pick Mathias as a disciple. The only thing that Jesus told them to wait on was for power when the Holy Spirit came upon them. Jesus didn't say, "Wait to pick a new apostle until you receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you."

What's a reason people would require casting lots to be unacceptable?



As Peter said in Acts 1, there needed to be someone who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. The only two qualified people fit their needs was Joseph called Barsabas surnamed Justis and Matthias. Are you saying they were wrong to pick Matthias?

Acts 1:21 -23
21Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

yes right the ot folk weren’t believers that’s why they didn’t receive christ but we’re set under the angels instead those ot doctrines are because of unbelief if they had the Holy Spirit and a relationship where they heard from God personally why would they then cast lots ?

they didn’t have the Holy Ghost in them so they had an external law they were dead and blind so To make decisions they did things like cast lots. Christ hadn’t come yet to offer the reconciliation and fullness of the Holy Ghost taking his rightful place inside the heart and mind of man

the ot folk weren’t believers brother they didn’t believe because they couldn’t hear. So they were given the law and ways of the ot all Outward commands given to these kinds of folks

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

they couldn’t see and hear until Christ came to offer the Holy Ghost but we’re actually enemies of God and rejected him from the start when they worshipped the golden calf and took
Up the tabernacle of moloch

Isreal Wouldn’t hear and believe it’s a lesson we can learn from them

“Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭

someone with the holy spirit has no need to cast lots to make decisions the ot wasn’t based on Mans belief but on thier unbelief and stiff necks of rebellion

it’s why the ot doctrine is so different from the new just my own opinion though

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthias was a product of Peter stepping ahead with good intentions but acting before the spirit was given in zeal

Correct. One could say that Mathias was a "fill-in" unto Paul was commissioned. So Paul is indeed the 12th, and there are no others than the twelve apostles of the Lamb, who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 18:28).

Getting back to the casting of lots, that was valid in the OT, but is not recommended for Christians. However, if you want to study Probability Theory, no one will stop you.