Do SDA believe Michael is God?

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TheLearner

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#82
Members of the Trinity spoke thru the prophets. With a more exact translation, we learn it was God that spoke thru the prophets. The member who did it is not indicated.


Hebrews 1

Easy-to-Read Version



God Has Spoken Through His Son

1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side[a] of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names.
5 God never said this to any of the angels:
“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.”
God also never said about an angel,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my son.”
6 And then, when God presents his firstborn Son to the world,[b] he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 This is what God said about the angels:
“He changes his angels into winds[d]
and his servants into flaming fire.”
8 But this is what he said about his Son:
“God, your kingdom will last forever and ever.
You use your authority for justice.
9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong.
So God, your God, has chosen you,
giving you more honor and joy than anyone like you.”
10 God also said,
“O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
and your hands made the sky.
11 These things will disappear, but you will stay.
They will all wear out like old clothes.
12 You will fold them up like a coat,
and they will be changed like clothes.
But you never change,
and your life will never end.”
13 And God never said this to an angel:
“Sit at my right side
until I put your enemies under your power.[e]”
14 All the angels are spirits who serve God and are sent to help those who will receive salvation.

Hebrews 1 says this:

Hebrews 1:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Is Jesus the "express image" of the Father's person, making Him the One who is just like His Father?

Is Jesus a messenger for the Father in those verses?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Do the created ("maketh", vs 7) angels worship Jesus?

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Is Jesus anointed above His "fellows"? Who are the "fellows" in the context? Why are they His "fellows"? What is their job/position?

If Jesus is a messenger of the Father, is He the lowest or highest messenger of the Father?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#83
Use the same argument:

Isa 43:28: "Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches."

Is Jesus a "prince" of "the sanctuary"?
not seeing how you identify Christ or angels as one of the 'princes of the sanctuary' ?
even if you meant it sarcastically, not sure how anyone would read that as a reference to Christ?

pretty sure that's a reference to the chief priests among the Levites under the Mosaic covenant.
but in Daniel, it is clear Michael is called 'one of' the captains/princes/etc -- indicating more than one.
Christ however is monogeneres -- the only
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#84
I noticed that too a few years ago. If Michael was Jesus then he would not be just 'one' of the chief princes but 'the' chief prince.
another interesting line of thought for you brother --

in Jude, Michael would not dare to speak a word against Satan directly, but said 'the Lord rebuke thee!'
however in Matthew 16:23, Jesus directly says '
get thee behind Me Satan!'
similarly in Matthew 4:10 He commands Satan '
away with thee!' -- and Satan has no choice but obey, and departs
and even a third witness, John 13:27, Satan had entered Judas and Christ commands him, '
what you do, do quickly'


Michael is meek before Satan, knowing it is not his place. Jesus Christ is not: He speaks to him as God, commanding with all authority.

similarly also, Christ does not say, as Moses and all the prophets, and indeed all the angels, 'thus says the LORD . . ' -- Jesus says, "I say.." :)
He is the Mighty God
 

TheLearner

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#85
Joshua 5:13-15
Easy-to-Read Version
The Commander of the Lord’s Army
13 When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him. The man had a sword in his hand. Joshua went to the man and asked, “Are you a friend to our people or are you one of our enemies?”

14 The man answered, “I am not an enemy. I am the commander of the Lord’s army. I have just now come to you.”

Then Joshua bowed his face to the ground to show respect and said, “I am your servant. Does my master have a command for me?”

15 The commander of the Lord’s army answered, “Take off your sandals. The place where you are standing is holy.” So Joshua obeyed him.

Then he [the Lord] said, "Come no closer! Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." He said further, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God" (Exodus 3:5,6).

Acts 7:30-33
Easy-to-Read Version
30 “Forty years later Moses was in the desert near Mount Sinai. An angel appeared to him in the flame of a burning bush. 31 When Moses saw this, he was amazed. He went near to look closer at it. He heard a voice; it was the Lord’s. 32 The Lord said, ‘I am the same God your ancestors had—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] Moses began to shake with fear. He was afraid to look at the bush.

33 “The Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, because the place where you are now standing is holy ground.

Clearly, the above texts are theophany. One does not bow to worship an angel like John did in
Revelation 22:8-9
Easy-to-Read Version
8 I am John. I am the one who heard and saw these things. After I heard and saw them, I bowed down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me. 9 But the angel said to me, “Don’t worship me! I am a servant like you and your brothers the prophets. I am a servant like all those who obey the words in this book. You should worship God!”

Now looking at Michael, he is a prince, there are other princes, who are angels.

Daniel 10:13
English Standard Version
13 eThe prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me ftwenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

Jude 9
English Standard Version
9 But when uthe archangel vMichael, contending with the devil, was disputing wabout the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, x“The Lord rebuke you.”

Jesus rebukes demons himself, thus not Michael.


This person, standing before Joshua son of Nun, is?

Joshua 5:

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
 

TheLearner

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#86
What is a theophany? What is a Christophany?

ANSWER

A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:25; and 12:5.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23).

https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html
 

TheLearner

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#87
Who is Michael the archangel?

ANSWER

Michael the archangel is described in the Bible, in the books of Daniel, Jude, and Revelation, as a warrior angel who engages in spiritual combat. The word archangel means “angel of the highest rank.” Most angels in the Bible are portrayed as messengers, but Michael is described in all three books as contending, fighting, or standing against evil spirits and principalities (Daniel 10:13; 21; Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7). We do not have a full picture of any angel, and only two are named in the Bible (Gabriel is the other). Scripture only gives us hints of their movements during human events, but it is safe to say that Michael the archangel is a powerful being.



Despite his great power, Michael is still in total submission to the Lord. His dependence on the Lord’s power is seen in Jude 1:9. The righteous angels have a rank and are submissive to authority, and for this reason they are used as a picture of a wife’s submission to her husband (1 Corinthians 11:10). Taking into consideration the strength of Michael the archangel, his submission to God is all the more beautiful. If the submission of angels is an argument for woman’s submission, we can see that submission is never meant to take away a woman’s strength or purpose or value.

The prophet Daniel is told that Michael the archangel is “the great prince who protects your people” (Daniel 12:1). Daniel’s people are the Jews, and the fact that Michael “protects” them suggests that God has set various holy angels over various countries or people groups. The demons seem to have a similar hierarchy (see Daniel 10:20). The fact that Michael is a “great prince” indicates that he has authority in the spiritual realm. There are others—Daniel 10:13 says that Michael is “one of the chief princes.”

Michael the archangel has, it seems, a prominent role in the events of the end times. Daniel was told by the angel of the Lord that, during the time of the end, Michael will “arise” and there would be a time of unsurpassed trouble—a reference to the Great Tribulation (Daniel 12:1). Israel is guaranteed protection during this time, which will be followed by a great resurrection of the dead—some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame (Daniel 12:2). The rapture of the church will be accompanied by “the voice of the archangel” (1 Thessalonians 4:16); this could be a reference to Michael, but Scripture does not specifically name him here.

The last mention of Michael the archangel appears in Revelation 12:7. During the tribulation, “war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” Michael and the forces of heaven defeat the dragon (Satan), and the Devil is hurled to the earth. There, enraged, Satan “went off to wage war against . . . those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus” (Revelation 12:17).

There is a spiritual war being fought over the hearts and souls of mankind. Michael the archangel is a strong angelic prince who protects Israel and submissively serves God by doing battle against Satan. The Devil can do his worst, but “he [is] not strong enough” to conquer heaven’s forces (Revelation 12:8).
https://www.gotquestions.org/Michael-the-archangel.html
 

TheLearner

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#88
Chapter 20 of the Book of Enoch mentions seven holy angels who watch, that often are considered the seven archangels: Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Uriel, Saraqael, Raguel, and Remiel.

"
According to Enoch, xxi., as the text has now been critically fixed (see Charles, "Book of Enoch," p. 357), there are seven archangels ('irin we-ḳaddishin, "holy ones who watch"):

(1) Uriel ["God is Light"; compare II Esd. iv. 1], set over the world's luminaries and over Sheol [compare Enoch, xxi. 5, xxvii. 2, xxxiii. 3, 4]; (2) Raphael, set over the spirits of men [compare Enoch, x. 4, where he is told to bind Azazel and to heal the earth with Tobit—iii. 17]; (3) Raguel [Ra'uel, "the terrifier"], who chastiseth the world of the luminaries; (4) Michael, set over the best part of mankind, over the people of Israel; (5) Sariel [Æth., Sarakiel, Suriel, "God turneth"?], set over the spirits who seduce the spirits to sin; (6) Gabriel, set over paradise, the serpents [seraphim?], and the cherubim; (7) Jerahmeel ["God is merciful"], whom God set over the resurrection [compare II Esd. iv. 36; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lv. 3; Steindorf, "Elias Apoc." p. 152].

Whether corresponding with the seven amshaspands of Persia or with the seven planetary spirits of Babylonia (see Herzfeld, Kohut, and Beer in Kautzsch's "Apokryphen u. Pseudepig. d. A. T." p. 251), these seven archangels recur in Enoch, xc. 21-22 (compare Pirḳe R. El. iv. and Hekalot, iv.; the Revelation of John, v. 6, and Hermas Sim. ix. 31; 6, 2; Vis. iii. 4, 1; see Spitta, "Zur Gesch. u. Lit. d. Urchristenthums," ii. 361). Michael, named as the fourth, is probably meant to stand in the middle as chief (Luecken, "Michael," p. 37). He is the leader of the seven (Enoch, xc. 21, 22)." https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1747-arelim

"
  1. Archangel Michael, the Warrior Angel
  2. Archangel Raphael, the Healing Angel
  3. Archangel Gabriel, the Messenger Angel
  4. Archangel Jophiel, the Angel of Beauty
  5. Archangel Ariel, the Angel of Nature and Animals
  6. Archangel Azrael, the Angel of Death
  7. Archangel Chamuel, Angel of Peaceful Relationships
"
https://www.beliefnet.com/inspiration/angels/galleries/the-7-archangels-and-their-meanings.aspx

Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Luke 1:26
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
 

TheLearner

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#90
Colossians 2:13-15
Easy-to-Read Version
13 You were spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were not free from the power of your sinful self. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave all our sins. 14 Because we broke God’s laws, we owed a debt—a debt that listed all the rules we failed to follow. But God forgave us of that debt. He took it away and nailed it to the cross. 15 He defeated the rulers and powers of the spiritual world. With the cross he won the victory over them and led them away, as defeated and powerless prisoners for the whole world to see.

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Not in Revelation. Throughout that book He's consistently called the Lamb. If it was really him who defeated Satan, it would've said that the Lamb fought with Satan and his angels, not Michael.

Actually there's an important lesson there. Satan was a "covering cherub", like the two cherubim that cover God's throne on the Ark of the Covenant; Angels though are generally in much lower rank than cherub. But in Rev. 12, an archangel defeated Satan, not because Michael's angels are twice of Satan's, but Michael is empowered by God. It's very humiliating to Satan that he couldn't prevail over an underling archangel.
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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#92
You are saying that the following is not a reference to the Son of the Father?

Ezek 34:24: "And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it."

Ezek 34:23: "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd."

Ezek 37:24: "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."

Ezek 37:25: "And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever."
Is Michael your Savior? Don't you know? Jesus is my Savior.
 

Duckybill

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Aug 16, 2021
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#93
You think so?

This is Christianity basics:

1 Corinthians 15:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Where does the NT say Michael is our Savior? It doesn't! It says ONLY Jesus is THE Savior. Michael is BARELY mentioned in the NT!
 

Duckybill

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#94
You seemed to have lost the part of the reply where "SDA" believe that Jesus and Michael are but two names/designations for the same Person/Being, that of the Son. Just like Immanuel, or David or Adam, or Word, etc.
"Michael is your Savior? Show us that in the NT."

You CAN'T!
 

Duckybill

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#96
Is the Word the Saviour?

Is Immanuel the Saviour?

Is the last Adam the Saviour?

Is the David of Ezekiel the Saviour?

If indeed that Michael is simply another name/designation for the Son of the Father, the question is simply answered, isn't it?
You can't show Scripture that says Michael is God nor Savior. I know.
 

Duckybill

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#97
You are saying that the following is not a reference to the Son of the Father?

Ezek 34:24: "And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it."

Ezek 34:23: "And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd."

Ezek 37:24: "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them."

Ezek 37:25: "And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever."
Why are you avoiding NT like it's plague?
 

Duckybill

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#98
How many times is "Immanuel" in the OT and how many times is "Emmanuel" in the NT? The number of times in plethora or scarcity does not validate or invalidate a teaching. I do hope that you can begin to see the unbalance of your measuring scales.
How many times is Michael in the NT? How many times is Jesus in the NT? Jesus is my Savior. Not Michael, "one of the chief princes"! God isn't "one of the chief princes"!

Daniel 10:13 (NKJV)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
 
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#99
I noticed that too a few years ago. If Michael was Jesus then he would not be just 'one' of the chief princes but 'the' chief prince.
Read the context.

1. Isa 9:6: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

2. Mat 12:24: "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

Prince of Good

Prince of Evil

Unless you think Jesus is "the Prince" of evil? I don't think you do.
 
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How many times is Michael in the NT? How many times is Jesus in the NT? Jesus is my Savior. Not Michael, "one of the chief princes"! God isn't "one of the chief princes"!

Daniel 10:13 (NKJV)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia.
"princes" in that verse simply means 'ruler'. You are saying that "God" is not one of the rulers?

God is the chief ruler of righteousness.

Satan is the chief ruler of unrighteousness.

Is God one of the chief rulers then?