One taken,one left. The rapture.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Thank you for reminding me so it can be understood by those who read what 'deal got TOTALLY debunked' means to you.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

and all the rest follows,

So Jesus DIDN'T leave the right hand OF GODS THRONE.

So you believe HE DID DISOBEY GODS COMMAND, whereas I DO NOT.

And that is what you refer to as 'TOTALLY' debunked

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

ARE YOU NOT ALREADY 'LIVING' WITH HIM? Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

ALL THAT scary scary 'horror, chaos, and death' COMES FROM 'the PRE TRIB theory' believers, NOT WHAT IS WRITTEN.

The 'left behind' is the mind set is of CARNAL MAN, not those who have ALREADY died and are raised up with Christ who ALREADY KILL THE FLESH EVERYDAY, not those who know and understand we are NOT TO FEAR the killing of the FLESH or the man who can do it, but we are to fear HIM who kills BOTH the flesh and soul.

Post tribulation believers, believe what is written by God, not what man makes up such as

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

10 Finally, my brethren, BE STRONG IN THE LORD AND IN THE POWER OF HIS MIGHT.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication FOR ALL SAINTS

1Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand for they shall forecast devices against him.

26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow and many shall fall down slain.

27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

We all believe in the positional verses

" be strong"
"Seated in heavenly places"
" put on the armor"

The one taken-left is prophetic.
(Future.)

It is not Either< >Or.

I can walk in fullness, with all my benefits, and watch and be ready, all at the same time.

Your position is Either< >Or.
Not biblical.

The debate in the "one taken" dynamic is also concerning timing. ( rapture timing)

Your starting place is wrong, because you exclude the pretrib concept from all your thoughts.

All pretrib rapture verses vids, and concepts, are forbidden.

My approach is opposite.
I watch postribber vids.
I put myself directly in your camp to understand fully what my opponent believes.

I have Sat and listened to ken anderson for hours.
I know your doctrine.
You know almost nothing of mine because you approach it as a joke.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

I AM NOT OMITTING ANY FACT because IT IS NOT A FACT THAT LOT AND NOAH WERE REMOVED PRE TRIB.

IT IS JUST YOUR BELIEF. WHICH IS INCORRECT.

AGAIN, the problem is with WHAT YOU BELIEVE is TRIBULATION. Let me get the definition for you, YET again

SO WE CAN SEE THAT LOT WAS REMOVED PRE JUDGMENT/wrath, not pre trib.

AFTER Having lived THROUGH TRIBULATIONS by living amongst the totally wicked

2 Peter 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, (tribulation- they left their habitation and married daughters of man,
(WHICH NOAHS FAMILY ALONE DID NOT TAKE PART IN)

TRIBULATION HAPPENS TO US WHEN

'the angels are kicked out (INSTEAD OF LEAVING) of heaven, AND receive the mark (instead of marrying the cast out angels)

THOSE WHO TAKE THE MARK - have the GIANTS. They are taking and giving in marriage. Eating and drinking and doing their own thing. THEY ARE NOT TROUBLED. THEY FEEL NO TRIBULATION. THEY ARE BEING DECEIVED AND LOSING THEIR SOULS. THEY ARE NOW ZOMBIES. THE WALKING DEAD.

THOSE WHO DON'T TAKE THE MARK - are those building the ark. They are being made fun of. They are STANDING AND DOING WHAT GOD HAS TOLD THEM TO DO. They are on their own. The whole world BECOMES, DIFFERENT and then THEY are PRESSED UPON to conform, to let go and go with the flow, marry an angel, have a giant/worship the image, take the mark.

THAT IS THE TRIBULATION.

The WRATH falls on those who decided to GET MARRIED AND HAVE THE BABY (woman giving suck)

but not those who BUILD THE ARK.

but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (wrath)

5 And spared not the old world, (tribulation)

but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, (delivered from the coming WRATH, which comes AFTER TRIBULATIONS)

bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (wrath)

6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; (WRATH)

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (TRIBULATION)

2347. thlipsis ►
Strong's Concordance
thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Definition: tribulation
Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

You pretend that is all John wrote, and Actually EXCLUDE Jesus appearing to John ON PATMOS.

Here it is.
It was there yesterday and will be there eternally mo matter how cunningly you deny it.

Rev 1
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand,

See all that?
Jesus ON PATMOS talking to John.
No angel ANYWHERE in sight.

In fact i can not find any interaction of John and angels for the first 10 or so chapters.

Yet you claim Jesus is not where IT SAYS HE IS, but claim Jesus is sitting on his throne.

Completely in conflict with WHAT IS WRITTEN in revelation.

So yes.
We both debunked you very foundation.
You via omission
Myself by simply reading what is there for you to omit.

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

"""I AM NOT OMITTING ANY FACT because IT IS NOT A FACT THAT LOT AND NOAH WERE REMOVED PRE TRIB."""

uh ...there is only one correct answer

lot removed before sodom burned
AHEM...that is prejudgment/pretrib

noah in the ark pretrib / prejudgment

you flat out deny it.

why??????

lets test fit your belief into it.

Noah ,After the flood came ,and had sunken the ark because the door never closed, was ushered into the ark and was delivered during the flood.
Uh...No that definitely does not fit.
Let's try another .
Noah, After the flood ,with the ark covered in mud was caught up high into the sky as we can see mirroring a postrib Deliverance and rapture.
Uh...No that doesn't work either.

So we can see Noah was definitely delivered pre-trib/ pre-flood.

Well, let us test fit Lot into your belief system.
Lot was able togo into his cellar, and escaped the fire that came upon his City ,but then the Cellar Door burned down and so lot was miraculously delivered out of the flames.
Uh...No, that's not how the story went.
But maybe a postrib post-judgment Deliverance ????
let's try that.
Lot having entered the cellar during the fire ,saw the Cellar Door burned off as well ,and happened to have some steel plates, to keep the fire from killing all of them
So at the end of Sodom burning to the ground, Abraham showed up after the fire with asbestos sandals ,and got Lot out of the steel door cellar.
Uh....No that one wont fly either. So the only thing ,the only correct answer, would be lot delivered, ushered out, and removed pre-judgement which would be pre-trib deliverance and removal.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he SAW.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

NOT JUST TO/FOR 'THE CHURCH'. NOT 'IN SECRET'. NOT A MYSTERY. NOT PREVIOUS TO THIS DAY. (THE LORDS DAY)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned TO SEE the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And He had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

SO WE HAVE A CHOICE.

BELIEVE THAT JESUS OBEYED THE COMMAND OF GOD

OR

SEARCH FOR A WAY OUT from it, by finding SOMETHING, ANYTHING that we can STAND ON TO MAKE it seem as if we are not making GODS WORDS NULL AND VOID, knowing we are.

NOW WE BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE AND WHY. Hopefully there is no need to belabor it anymore.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

"""I AM NOT OMITTING ANY FACT because IT IS NOT A FACT THAT LOT AND NOAH WERE REMOVED PRE TRIB."""

uh ...there is only one correct answer

lot removed before sodom burned
AHEM...that is prejudgment/pretrib

noah in the ark pretrib / prejudgment

you flat out deny it.

why??????

lets test fit your belief into it.

Noah ,After the flood came ,and had sunken the ark because the door never closed, was ushered into the ark and was delivered during the flood.
Uh...No that definitely does not fit.
Let's try another .
Noah, After the flood ,with the ark covered in mud was caught up high into the sky as we can see mirroring a postrib Deliverance and rapture.
Uh...No that doesn't work either.

So we can see Noah was definitely delivered pre-trib/ pre-flood.

Well, let us test fit Lot into your belief system.
Lot was able togo into his cellar, and escaped the fire that came upon his City ,but then the Cellar Door burned down and so lot was miraculously delivered out of the flames.
Uh...No, that's not how the story went.
But maybe a postrib post-judgment Deliverance ????
let's try that.
Lot having entered the cellar during the fire ,saw the Cellar Door burned off as well ,and happened to have some steel plates, to keep the fire from killing all of them
So at the end of Sodom burning to the ground, Abraham showed up after the fire with asbestos sandals ,and got Lot out of the steel door cellar.
Uh....No that one wont fly either. So the only thing ,the only correct answer, would be lot delivered, ushered out, and removed pre-judgement which would be pre-trib deliverance and removal.

DELIVERED PRE WRATH/JUDGMENT.

MAYBE QUESTIONS INSTEAD

WHY DID THE FLOOD COME UPON THE WORLD?

WHY WAS SODOM DESTROYED?

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he SAW.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

NOT JUST TO/FOR 'THE CHURCH'. NOT 'IN SECRET'. NOT A MYSTERY. NOT PREVIOUS TO THIS DAY. (THE LORDS DAY)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned TO SEE the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And He had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

SO WE HAVE A CHOICE.

BELIEVE THAT JESUS OBEYED THE COMMAND OF GOD

OR

SEARCH FOR A WAY OUT from it, by finding SOMETHING, ANYTHING that we can STAND ON TO MAKE it seem as if we are not making GODS WORDS NULL AND VOID, knowing we are.

NOW WE BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE AND WHY. Hopefully there is no need to belabor it anymore.

Jesus...not an angel, talking to John on Patmos is NOT Jesus sitting on a throne in heaven

Your deal is debunked friend

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

huh?
We agree they both are prejudgment dynamics???

Great

Absolutely · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he SAW.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

NOT JUST TO/FOR 'THE CHURCH'. NOT 'IN SECRET'. NOT A MYSTERY. NOT PREVIOUS TO THIS DAY. (THE LORDS DAY)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned TO SEE the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And He had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

SO WE HAVE A CHOICE.

BELIEVE THAT JESUS OBEYED THE COMMAND OF GOD

OR

SEARCH FOR A WAY OUT from it, by finding SOMETHING, ANYTHING that we can STAND ON TO MAKE it seem as if we are not making GODS WORDS NULL AND VOID, knowing we are.

NOW WE BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE AND WHY. Hopefully there is no need to belabor it anymore.

"""SO WE HAVE A CHOICE."""

yes
we can read what is there, Jesus not in his throne, talking to John,on patmos, or try and reframe it.

yes the choice is clear.

FreeGrace2 · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

There is NO "rapture" as is commonly thought and hoped for. Jesus isn't taking anyone to heaven in a glorified body. And the Bible doesn't say He is. None of the resurrection passages mention Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So it's not going to happen.

Here are the facts:

1. The Bible speaks of just ONE resurrection of the saved.
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

2. The Bible speaks of just ONE resurrection of the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible describes WHEN this single resurrection will occur.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Red words tell us WHEN this resurrection (singular) will occur; which is "when He comes", the Second Advent.
Blue words tell us WHO will attend this single resurrection: "those who belong to Him". This obviously refers to EVERY believer in history, from Adam forward.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him,("rapture") we ask you, brothers and sisters, {this is self explanatory}
Rev 20:5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Recall that there are just 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved, per Acts 24:15 (see above). v.5 describes the resurrection of tribulation martyrs as being the FIRST resurrection. The "dead" in the parenthesis of v.5 refers to all unbelievers, who will be in the SECOND resurrection. However, none of them will get glorified bodies. Instead, God will raise them to life in their old mortal bodies, they will be judged, and then thrown into the lake of fire. The Bible also calls the LoF the "second death". This is because unbelievers will physically die twice. However, their souls will exist forever, just like the Beast (a/c) FP and Satan/demons as Rev 20:10 describes: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Summary:

There is ONE resurrection of the saved.
It will occur at the second advent of Christ, which is post Trib.
All believers throughout history will participate and be "forever with the Lord".
All unbelievers will be in a second resurrection in order to attend the GWT judgment.

Therefore, a pretrib rapture is impossible. Such an event requires several resurrections of saved people. And the Bible NEVER mentions such an event.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

I GUESS YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WITH JESUS DISOBEYING A DIRECT COMMAND OF GOD,

FOR THE SOUL PURPOSE TO PROMOTE A DOCTRINE OF MAN.

Jocund · Mar 6, 2022

Runningman said:

Acts 2 makes a reference to Joel and "the last days" which if we are approaching this from the perspective of Psalm 90:4, the "days" are several long periods of time rather than 24 hour periods. Acts 2 basically directly quotes from Joel 2, with the notably added "in the last days". The sequence is placed before the day of the Lord.

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:" - Acts 2:17-20 KJV

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." - Joel 2:28-31 KJV

We also see a sequence in Joel 3 which is also placed before the day of the Lord:

"Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel." - Joel 3:13-16 KJV

In Matthew 27 and other crucifixion accounts we see imagery that lines up with Joel 3:

"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. [...] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;" - Matthew 27:45&50-51 KJV

In Luke's version of that sequence, it describes all the earth being under darkness.

"And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour." - Luke 23:44 KJV

The crucifixion events (earthquake, shouting, and darkness) appears to fit the criteria in Joel 3. The noteable difference between Joel 2:31 and Joel 3 is that Joel 3 states that the moon is darkened and Joel 2:31 states that the moon turns red. Isaiah 13:10 ("the moon shall not cause her light to shine") therefore seems to fit better with Joel 3 and from Matthew 27, arguably with the crucifixion.

We also see some interesting parallels between Ezekiel 32:7's description of covering the sun with a cloud and Rev 6's description of "sackcloth of [goat] hair".

"And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light." - Ezekiel 32:7 KJV

We're still left with the question about the difference between Joel 2, Joel 3, and Revelation 6. Are they all the same sequence? Are Joel 2 and Rev 6 paired? Are each of them discussing a different thing (with Rev 6 being a repeat event)?

The strangest part about the match up between the OT prophesies and Revelation is that Revelation declares that it is placed during the Lord's day where the Joel and Isaiah prophesies happen before the day of the Lord.

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," - Revelation 1:10 KJV

There seems to be some division on whether "the Lord's day" means "the day of the Lord" or just "Sunday" but there are a handful of translations that render it as "the day of the Lord". If it is a description of the day of the Lord, the Joel 2 events would necessarily have to take place before the sequences in Revelation (which I might be missing something, but seems like it could be the case). That would make the Rev 6 passage a repeated symbol and not the prerequisite event for the day of the Lord.

There seems to be some ambiguity and differences of opinion in interpretations between "the Lord's day", "the day of the Lord", "the day of Christ", and "the day of God". It becomes a bit overwhelming to try to map out succinctly.

There also isn't a clear point that states "This is the day of the Lord" in Revelation, so we are forced to look at other passages that indicate what the day of the Lord coincides with.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" - 2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV

2 Peter 3 lines up the day of the Lord with Revelation 21:1, which is after the judgement.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." - Revelation 21:1 KJV

If we are looking at the day of the Lord as a literal 24 hour period, it therefore must be after the 1000 years (assuming a literal 1000 years too). And therefore could not have anything to do with events described before Satan is loosed after the 1000 years. That would include tribulations, the resurrection at the beginning of the 1000 years, or any alleged raptures that take place prior to the 1000 years. The day of the Lord couldn't immediately follow those events prior to the 1000 years unless the length of the day of the Lord is not literal and that the 1000 years is part of the day of the Lord.

All of this is my impression so far. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this "day of the Lord" concept, and I'm sure there are passages that I just haven't connected.

I'm interested in this topic too. My impression at the moment is that it would be God's wrath following from Romans 9, but this might be a good one to split off into a different thread (feel free to ping me if you do)

Always appreciate your input, thanks for taking the time

DavidTree · Mar 6, 2022

Pre-trib rapture = the Lie that keeps on deceiving.

Read your Bible and believe the words of the LORD and His Apostles.

Believe the Prophets Noah, Daniel, and Job who warned against the lie of pre-trib rapture.

Jocund · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

I disagree.

The last trump is timed by 1 Cor 15:51-53 where it states that the dead rise incorruptible and all will be changed. That corresponds with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 where the Lord himself descends with the trump of God when the dead in Christ rise first. This places that event at Rev 20:5 at the time of the 1000 year kingdom. Therefore, the seventh angel's trumpet is necessarily not the last trumpet because the the Lord himself blows the last trump.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." - 1 Cor 15:51-53 KJV

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:15-17 KJV

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." - Rev 20:5 KJV

arthurfleminger · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

Am I reading it correctly that you believe that Jesus is 'stuck' in one place????????? Didn't Jesus promise that whenever 2 or more would gather in His Name that He would be present amongst them? "When two or more are gathered in My Name, I am in the midst of them." I believe that was from Matthew Cha 18.

arthurfleminger · Mar 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

Jesus isn't limited to sitting at the Right Hand of God. Didn't Jesus promise His early church that He would be with them until the end of time? "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matthew 28

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Absolutely said:

What in my post makes you think I am saying 'either or'?

WHO KEN ANDERSON?
BUT
I know EVERYTHING about your doctrine. It starts with 'Hath God said' and ends the MUCH same way. NOT A SINGLE WORD OF IT IS WRITTEN. IT IS PURE CONJECTURE.
IF IT WAS written, then SOMEONE WOULD be able to simply put it forth AS SUCH. BUT it cant be done because GOD NEVER said it. JESUS NEVER said it. THE PROPHETS never wrote it. THE APOSTLES never wrote of it. PAUL SPOKE directly AGAINST IT IN HIS FIRST LETTERS AND NEVER ONCE OVER THE NEXT HOWEVER MANY YEARS DID HE change. The WHOLE reason for the second letter to Thess, is BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU THINK YOU SEE, EVEN TO THIS DAY. IT just doesn't say it, NOT anywhere.

And how could I ever believe it, when IT DIRECTLY OPPOSES so very very much of WHAT IS WRITTEN?

Make enemies footstool. Lo here is Christ BELIEVE THEM NOT. God never changes. Not a respecter of persons. Return after working of Satan. Simplicity in Christ. In Christ, then ye are Abrahams seed. Grafted in. He will appear a second time without sin. Be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer. Pick up cross and follow me. Save life will lose it. Daub wall with untempered morter. Teach my children to fly to save their souls. Will descend in like manner. No gather until AFTER the man of sin...And He sat down and said today is this fulfilled. When YE SHALL SEE, when ye shall hear... An evil generation seeks a sign. No sign shall be given. The day of vengeance. Hope not hope when seen...

NEVER in ALL THE MANY MANY MANY places that A SECOND WITNESS or for that matter a FIRST witness could be written, is there. And how many verses could not be written as they are if indeed THERE was a pre trib rapture.

And some of the MOST TELLING - Church SUDDENLY and without so much as a single word becomes 'the elders'. But because it is never mentioned again, so MUST BE. Delivered - not as in the rest of the words of God. Kept but not as in the rest of the bible. And the worst one so far

APOSTASY MEANS TO 'TO GATHER AND RAPTURE TO HEAVEN'.

The descriptions of the Churches DEMANDS Christians be 'tested' and not just 'taken at their word'.

Pre trib also takes GODS WORDS and tells us

They ARE WRITTEN TO AND FOR THOSE WHO WILL NEVER READ IT....I mean REALLY?

I don't even want to say "I believe it" but I don't have the slightest wish want or desire to not have my gospel armor TESTED.

SO what if I do get KILLED/MURDERED during the tribulation because I refuse to worship the image and take the mark of the beast? How do I see that?

Well, I wasn't looking to save my life and so I will have found it. Gods wish that all come to repentance was worth what ever might happen because that is how much I love Him. I will be considered worthy because I did pick up my cross and follow Him. I was willing and available for the 10 day trial and the Holy Spirit did speak through me. I never lost my faith in the POWER OF GOD. The JOY of what comes NEXT makes anything that happens during the TRIB nothing more than a 'nuisance' within THE SPAN OF ETERNITY.

Seriously, life gets hard and then my flesh is killed? I don't see any problem and when I IMAGINE STANDING BEFORE GOD,
MY FAITH and TRUST in HIM and in HIS WORDS are my life and NOTHING AND NO ONE CAN EVER SEPARATE ME FROM THAT.

Nothing will happen to me that hasn't happened to someone else and if GOD LOVED ME ENOUGH to do it for me, I know He will understand my want to do it for HIM. I AM more than grateful for I am so undeserving

and He even released me from that burden, PRAISE THE LORD. So you see, EVERYTHING about pre trib goes against all I have learned and know about GOD, and 'all the words of GOD' have made me who I am.

And there is this, and if this isn't directly against the pre trib theory, then please tell me what you believe GOD TELLING US HERE?
Ezekiel 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

Jocund said:

I disagree.

The last trump is timed by 1 Cor 15:51-53 where it states that the dead rise incorruptible and all will be changed. That corresponds with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 where the Lord himself descends with the trump of God when the dead in Christ rise first. This places that event at Rev 20:5 at the time of the 1000 year kingdom. Therefore, the seventh angel's trumpet is necessarily not the last trumpet because the the Lord himself blows the last trump.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." - 1 Cor 15:51-53 KJV

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:15-17 KJV

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." - Rev 20:5 KJV

I don't understand what you are saying. ALL THOSE VERSES TAKE place AS THE LORDS DAY BEGINS,

and the Lords Day begins with the kingdoms of this world all becoming His, at the return, the day of vengeance, to rule and reign on the earth, with a rod of Iron. Heaven coming to earth. The Lord and all the angels.

kleronomos · Mar 6, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

I am willing to bet you have spoken about the Lord many times with another, so how many times has He physically shown up and you all discussed the matter at hand? I don't believe Him to be STUCK but I believe Him to be in obedience to the commands of God.

I believe what is written. Please let me know where the 'out' clause is to be found if there is one?

Short of that YES, HE IS RIGHT WHERE GOD TOLD HIM TO BE. I, myself, WILL NEVER remove HIM from right there under any circumstances because there is not QUESTION AS TO WHAT GOD IS SAYING. Everything I believe ALIGNS with this belief and when it doesn't I FIGURE OUT WHAT is wrong with WHAT I AM THINKING.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

Matthew 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

Luke 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
68 And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.
70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
71 And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.

Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said.
40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.
41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;
47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

NOT APPLY TO THE POST
Mark 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

One taken,one left. The rapture.

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