One taken,one left. The rapture.

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Jan 14, 2021
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I don't believe God is in any kind of a rush, He is looking to have all who will, come to repentance. Takes time and something you really want to give a good chance. It is after all life and death. And what good would be being priests and teaching for a 24 hour day? How much would be accomplished? What kind of a chance is that. I personally think it takes 1000 years to really get a handle on how GODS words fit perfectly together.

I do not understand what you are saying about the 7th trump and the 'physical' coming not being at the same time. Could you explain why you don't believe they are the same.
The seventh angel trump is described in Rev 11, but the physical coming of Christ as far as I understand is somewhere between Rev 19 and Rev 20 depending on the interpretation. A number of events are described between.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Do you not believe in any rapture at all?
Or just not a pre-trib rapture?
My view doesn't fall into such either-or categories. I think there is far too much attention paid to a subject that has thin scriptural support, and far too little paid to subjects that have more extensive support.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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DavidTree said:
2 Thess ch2

Day of the Lord and His Second Coming are synonymous.
But where in Revelation should we pin that down as?
At the end of the Tribulation. It's clear in Rev 20, since the single resurrection of all believers will include the Trip martyrs who will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I too find it more compelling to look at the Day of the Lord as a duration of time rather than a 24 hour period.
Correct. It is more than 1 day. It includes the entire Millennial Reign by the King of kings, and on into the eternal state.

If you are stating that the Day of the Lord starts with the physical coming of Christ, at what point in Revelation can we attribute that to? Is it the seventh angel trump in Rev 11? Or in the physical coming of Christ in relation to the first resurrection per 1 Thes 4:16? If we follow 1 Thes 4:16, that places the Day of the Lord starting at Rev 20:5. Which means that the seventh angel trump cannot be the last trump.
Correct. There are 7 wrath trumpets as the last group of God's wrath to be completed. When all of that is over, Jesus comes back and will heralded by the last trumpet. Which everyone on earth will hear, for sure.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Do you not believe in any rapture at all?
Or just not a pre-trib rapture?
In fact, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And that is what most pretribbers think of when they say "rapture".

We know from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53 that the living believers when Jesus returns will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, along with all the saints already dead, and be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

But there will be no trip to heaven at the resurrection. How that got started I do not know. But the Bible says nothing about that.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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If that were truth, then you could tell us who were the two witnesses? Where were they killed?
Since Heb 9:27 says it is appointed for men to die once and then the judgment. Since neither Enoch nor Elijah died physically, they would be the most logical as the 2W. But it will become clear when they appear.

They die in Jerusalem.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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But where in Revelation should we pin that down as?
As you know, "the Day and Hour" is not revealed to us in the Scriptures.

But we do know, and have been commanded by the LORD this: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Rev 20:18-19

And you do understand that = "that Day will not come until the man of sin is revealed" = 2 Thess ch2

And you do understand that = "the Trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST" = 1 Thess & 1 Cor ch15

And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it BY HIS ANGEL unto his servant John

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he SAW.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

NOT JUST TO/FOR 'THE CHURCH'. NOT 'IN SECRET'. NOT A MYSTERY. NOT PREVIOUS TO THIS DAY. (THE LORDS DAY)



8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned TO SEE the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And He had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.



SO WE HAVE A CHOICE.

BELIEVE THAT JESUS OBEYED THE COMMAND OF GOD

OR

SEARCH FOR A WAY OUT from it, by finding SOMETHING, ANYTHING that we can STAND ON TO MAKE it seem as if we are not making GODS WORDS NULL AND VOID, knowing we are.


NOW WE BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WE BELIEVE AND WHY. Hopefully there is no need to belabor it anymore.
Your method is finding one verse to cancel out the other.

What do you do with a multifaceted Jesus?

Is he a lion. Or a lamb?

Which one cancels the other?

Does "lion" survive your process or "lamb".
 
Aug 2, 2021
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In fact, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And that is what most pretribbers think of when they say "rapture".

We know from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53 that the living believers when Jesus returns will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, along with all the saints already dead, and be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

But there will be no trip to heaven at the resurrection. How that got started I do not know. But the Bible says nothing about that.
They started that error with the "Jewish Wedding" and John 14:1-4

Truth indeed = Christ described His Life around the Wedding of His Bride, but they 'intentionally' misunderstand John 14:1 and when and where it has already been fulfilled.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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They started that error with the "Jewish Wedding" and John 14:1-4

Truth indeed = Christ described His Life around the Wedding of His Bride, but they 'intentionally' misunderstand John 14:1 and when and where it has already been fulfilled.
Both of you have the word of God against you.

I have posted MULTIPLE times the 144k in heaven.

Then you have to just assume that the wedding and feast in heaven declared in rev 19 has no glorified saints present.

You just HAVE TO ASSUME THAT.

Part of what we can clearly see in the resurrected life of Jesus is him EATING FISH AND BREAD
WITH HIS HUMAN BODY POST RESURRECTION.
The marriage supper in heaven AS DECLARED BY JESUS at the last supper has HIS GLORIFIED SAINTS in heaven ,and drinking wine. IN HEAVEN.
Psssssst you need glorified bodies for that


But hey, I know those dynamics destroy your deal.

I find it interesting the penalty for reframing the book of revelation is ignored by postribs, because look at all of you coming undone, by the CLEAR FACT ,that the 144k are in heaven DURING THE TRIB..
Thus making 1thes 4 into a posrtib rapture , a lie.
You have the saints resurrected after TWO Gatherings TO HEAVEN in rev 14. !!!!!
WILL NOT WORK, NO MATTER HOW CUNNING YOU GET

But nothing stops any of you.
What reckless disregard for the word of God.
Even when shown, you guys get on that nothing burger train of,
" show me where it says white bird written on the white bird.

See it can not be a white bird"
But the comedy is that all that is coming from the same people that HAVE NO VERSE SAYING THE RAPTURE IS POSTRIB.
Instead the LITERALLY MAKE BELIEVE the saints are scurrying from cave to cave with a devil man chasing them FOR SEVEN YEARS . They go on to make believe there is a rapture ( post flood, where there is zero evidence in the bible) and these raptured 10 or 15 Saints do a u turn in mid air and pointlessly return to a war, killing people.
What reckless disregard in changing Gods word, making a mockery of the business in heaven declared by Jesus at the last supper, and vividly depicted in rev 19.

They know none of the pretrib rapture verses and when brought forward, they mock it, all the while not having A SINGLE VERSE depicting any such postrib rapture
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Both of you have the word of God against you.

I have posted MULTIPLE times the 144k in heaven.

Then you have to just assume that the wedding and feast in heaven declared in rev 19 has no glorified saints present.

You just HAVE TO ASSUME THAT.

Part of what we can clearly see in the resurrected life of Jesus is him EATING FISH AND BREAD
WITH HIS HUMAN BODY POST RESURRECTION.
The marriage supper in heaven AS DECLARED BY JESUS at the last supper has HIS GLORIFIED SAINTS in heaven ,and drinking wine. IN HEAVEN.
Psssssst you need glorified bodies for that


But hey, I know those dynamics destroy your deal.

I find it interesting the penalty for reframing the book of revelation is ignored by postribs, because look at all of you coming undone, by the CLEAR FACT ,that the 144k are in heaven DURING THE TRIB..
Thus making 1thes 4 into a posrtib rapture , a lie.
You have the saints resurrected after TWO Gatherings TO HEAVEN in rev 14. !!!!!
WILL NOT WORK, NO MATTER HOW CUNNING YOU GET

But nothing stops any of you.
What reckless disregard for the word of God.
Even when shown, you guys get on that nothing burger train of,
" show me where it says white bird written on the white bird.

See it can not be a white bird"
But the comedy is that all that is coming from the same people that HAVE NO VERSE SAYING THE RAPTURE IS POSTRIB.
Instead the LITERALLY MAKE BELIEVE the saints are scurrying from cave to cave with a devil man chasing them FOR SEVEN YEARS . They go on to make believe there is a rapture ( post flood, where there is zero evidence in the bible) and these raptured 10 or 15 Saints do a u turn in mid air and pointlessly return to a war, killing people.
What reckless disregard in changing Gods word, making a mockery of the business in heaven declared by Jesus at the last supper, and vividly depicted in rev 19.

They know none of the pretrib rapture verses and when brought forward, they mock it, all the while not having A SINGLE VERSE depicting any such postrib rapture
144k = keep reading, praying and studying the Word as the 144k is symbolic of..................................discover Truth

This is what you need to fear and honor = "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Both of you have the word of God against you.
You couldn't be more wrong. You are the one without any verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So it is YOUR claim that is against the Word of God.

I have posted MULTIPLE times the 144k in heaven.
Nothing you post shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And you simply keep misunderstanding that ch 14 isn't chronological. Nor can you prove that it is.

Then you have to just assume that the wedding and feast in heaven declared in rev 19 has no glorified saints present.
Here's a thought for you to chew on. Common view of a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven means that the wedding supper occurs at that time, the beginning of the trib. So why would John place this wedding JUST BEFORE Jesus and company leaves heaven for the Second Advent? Every thought about that?

You just HAVE TO ASSUME THAT.
It is the pretrib view that REQUIRES much assumption.

But hey, I know those dynamics destroy your deal.
What destroys your presumed pretrib trip to heaven is:
1. NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven
2. there is only ONE resurrection of the saved, so it can't be pretrib since Rev 20:5 plainly says the trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. There ain't no "pre-first" resurrections of the saved.

But nothing stops any of you.
The total lack of Scriptural evidence for that glorified trip to heaven hasn't stopped any of you.

What reckless disregard for the word of God.
That pretty well sums up the pretrib rapture theory.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Your method is finding one verse to cancel out the other.

What do you do with a multifaceted Jesus?

Is he a lion. Or a lamb?

Which one cancels the other?

Does "lion" survive your process or "lamb".
It isn't MY method.

He sent HIS ANGEL = didn't leave right hand of God = obeying command given



YOUR METHOD

He came HIMSELF = DID leave right hand of God = disobeying command



MY rendering = is for TRUTH of what is written

YOUR rendering = is for A DOCTRINE OF MAN (a doctrine that is proven to be FALSE at every turn because it goes against what is written by changing 'what is written' to HATH GOD SAID? and/or when God didn't say (BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN) adding your own words and conclusions and putting those forth.

WHAT IS WRITTEN


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


WHAT DAY SHALL NOT COME? THE DAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST GATHERS US TO HIM



4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


WHEN IS THAT WICKED REVEALED? WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING



9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


WHEN DOES CHRIST RETURN AND WHEN ARE WE GATHERED TO HIM? AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN



10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.



EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THIS, IS A LIE. No matter HOW many verses ANYONE tries to find to bolster it with this that and the other thing to try and make it legit, EVEN those BACKUPS ARE LIES.

KEPT from the hour DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'.
DELIVERED from DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'


WHAT IS WRITTEN IS WHERE TRUTH IS FOUND. TRUTH WOULD NEVER REQUIRE JESUS TO DISOBEY GODS COMMAND.

PRE TRI DEMANDS THAT CHRIST DISOBEY GODS COMMAND HENCE THE SEARCHING HIGH AND LOW TO GET CHRIST TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN. BUT IT CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH LIES, AS THIS TRUTH CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

SOME WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO CHANGE (HATH GOD SAID? AND GOD DIDN'T SAY) THE MEANING OF 'THE FALLING AWAY' TO NOT ONLY A 'GATHERING' BUT ALSO a trip to heaven pre trib. WE CALL THAT APOSTASY, AND NOW, LIKEWISE, SO DO THEY LIKEWISE.



HE is the Lion and He is the Lamb and THE ONE DOES NOT NEGATE THE OTHER, WHERE AS PRE TRIB DOES.

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
 
Jul 23, 2018
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It isn't MY method.

He sent HIS ANGEL = didn't leave right hand of God = obeying command given



YOUR METHOD

He came HIMSELF = DID leave right hand of God = disobeying command



MY rendering = is for TRUTH of what is written

YOUR rendering = is for A DOCTRINE OF MAN (a doctrine that is proven to be FALSE at every turn because it goes against what is written by changing 'what is written' to HATH GOD SAID? and/or when God didn't say (BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN) adding your own words and conclusions and putting those forth.

WHAT IS WRITTEN


2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


WHAT DAY SHALL NOT COME? THE DAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST GATHERS US TO HIM



4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


WHEN IS THAT WICKED REVEALED? WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING



9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


WHEN DOES CHRIST RETURN AND WHEN ARE WE GATHERED TO HIM? AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN



10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.



EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THIS, IS A LIE. No matter HOW many verses ANYONE tries to find to bolster it with this that and the other thing to try and make it legit, EVEN those BACKUPS ARE LIES.

KEPT from the hour DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'.
DELIVERED from DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'


WHAT IS WRITTEN IS WHERE TRUTH IS FOUND. TRUTH WOULD NEVER REQUIRE JESUS TO DISOBEY GODS COMMAND.

PRE TRI DEMANDS THAT CHRIST DISOBEY GODS COMMAND HENCE THE SEARCHING HIGH AND LOW TO GET CHRIST TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN. BUT IT CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH LIES, AS THIS TRUTH CAN NOT BE CHANGED.

SOME WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO CHANGE (HATH GOD SAID? AND GOD DIDN'T SAY) THE MEANING OF 'THE FALLING AWAY' TO NOT ONLY A 'GATHERING' BUT ALSO a trip to heaven pre trib. WE CALL THAT APOSTASY, AND NOW, LIKEWISE, SO DO THEY LIKEWISE.



HE is the Lion and He is the Lamb and THE ONE DOES NOT NEGATE THE OTHER, WHERE AS PRE TRIB DOES.

THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
Your deal is ridiculous.

Biden is seated as president.
You..." Poor man, what if he needs to go to the bathroom?"

Ridiculous beyond belief.

In rev 5 Jesus walks onto the scene in heaven.
You.." Jesus disobeyed, he sinned by getting up"
 
Dec 15, 2021
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As you know, "the Day and Hour" is not revealed to us in the Scriptures.

But we do know, and have been commanded by the LORD this: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Rev 20:18-19

And you do understand that = "that Day will not come until the man of sin is revealed" = 2 Thess ch2

And you do understand that = "the Trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST" = 1 Thess & 1 Cor ch15

And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3.

PLEASE show me WHERE you see this written.


And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3
 
Dec 15, 2021
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Your deal is ridiculous.

Biden is seated as president.
You..." Poor man, what if he needs to go to the bathroom?"

Ridiculous beyond belief.

In rev 5 Jesus walks onto the scene in heaven.
You.." Jesus disobeyed, he sinned by getting up"

So you equate Bidden going to the bathroom the same as 'pre trib rapture' of the church?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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PLEASE show me WHERE you see this written.

And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3
Jesus is not confined to a chair at all.

That is clear.