Pondering Revival of the saints.

[SophieT]

I just gave the Scripture. Do you reject what Paul said? Planting, watering, growing, do not happen simultaneously.

ummm

Paul was not speaking parables. And I am not taking sides.

I try to clarify and you are comparing apples to oranges as the saying goes

 

[Magenta]

ummm

Paul was not speaking parables. And I am not taking sides.

I try to clarify and you are comparing apples to oranges as the saying goes

I did not say anything about Paul speaking parables. Try again.

Is it your contention then that as soon as one plants, another one waters, and growth happens simultaneously?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

What a hypocrite you are, demanding innocently prescribed questions will you grill others.

My questions will be directed at you as I see fit, despite you not liking them.

The age of the post is immaterial. Gosh, you are dodging and weaving to beat the band.

Either these people heard the gospel or they did not. Which is it???

One thread you say one thing and in another something different.

If I do grill others (as you say I do) then I am the more pierced than they are grilled. That, sister is the grace of God. If that makes me an hypocrite then I am an hypocrite. If all the claims made against what I have written were in any way a dart of Satan - which many things are then stated to be a reflection of myself - by now - I ought to be laid low. Yet it is difficult to lay any man low who walks on a ravine as a habit of obedience to the Lord. So no harm done, sister. I just don't play with words.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

My questions will be directed at you as I see fit, despite you not liking them.

The age of the post is immaterial. Gosh, you are dodging and weaving to beat the band.

Either these people heard the gospel or they did not. Which is it???

One thread you say one thing and in another something different

I have no doubt that you will do as you please to do. I'm not here to settle your concerns, sister. Settle them yourself. Quote me according to your ambition if you must - but at least try to make sense of it. It's not difficult really, is it? I gave up dancing when I was a child. Ducking and diving on a ravine can only lead to injury. Shalom

 

[SophieT]

I did not say anything about Paul speaking parables. Try again.

Is it your contention then that as soon as one plants, another one waters, and growth happens simultaneously?

it is my contention you wish to cause contention

of course I did not say anything about you saying Paul was speaking in parables

obviously I was hoping to help out by pointing out that what Jesus said is not the teaching Paul gave

isn't the parable of the sower an allegory of the kingdom of God?

kindly do not attempt to create the impression I said anything close to your premise here:

Is it your contention then that as soon as one plants, another one waters, and growth happens simultaneously?[

I simply stated Jesus spoke in a parable and Paul was teaching

there is no disagreement there unless one is not familiar with scripture and of course you are as you like to illustrate

 

[Magenta]

If I do grill others (as you say I do) then I am the more pierced than they are grilled. That, sister is the grace of God. If that makes me an hypocrite then I am an hypocrite. If all the claims made against what I have written were in any way a dart of Satan - which many things are then stated to be a reflection of myself - by now - I ought to be laid low. Yet it is difficult to lay any man low who walks on a ravine as a habit of obedience to the Lord. So no harm done, sister. I just don't play with words.

You don't play with words but ask me to. My questions are direct and you complain and dodge.
Either these people heard the gospel previously as you stated in another thread, or they did not.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

You don't play with words but ask me to. My questions are direct and you complain and dodge.
Either these people heard the gospel previously as you stated in another thread, or they did not.

Then quote me. Stop asking me to prove what you are claiming. Prove it yourself.

 

[SophieT]

You don't play with words but ask me to. My questions are direct and you complain and dodge.
Either these people heard the gospel previously as you stated in another thread, or they did not.

funny

that is what I see you doing

since you and I have crossed swords, so to speak, since we first met on this forum, although myself with a different name, I have not managed to do anything but stir your ire. sometimes, people really have nothing in common but their belief in Christ

this forum illustrates the desire for some to put down others. accusations are often a misunderstanding but sometimes they are real and they hurt and no bond is found

I do not see the op doing what you seem to think he is doing, and I am really not taking any side but the side of what I believe is the truth

 

[Magenta]

It is that issue of the sovereignty of God that is most easy to agree with until it is expressed in terms of its outworking in salvation. The following video is in my church library and it is a recording of Duncan Campbell of the Hebridean Revival record that took place across the Hebridean Island between 1949-52. Many thousands of men, women and children were saved. Duncan bears witness that to his knowledge approximately 70% of the folks that were saved in the revival never heard the gospel being preached when they were saved. This is not to remove that in the Hebrides almost every man and woman of the near 100k peoples who lived on the Islands at that time knew of Christ because the Islands we Calvinist and the children would have received a Christian education for generations.

In this video Duncan speaks about an occasion that characterises what happened across the Hebrides - only this account is on the Isle of Berneray. The express issue is to do with God moving upon a village five miles from the church where the rest of the witness took place. It is worth a listen - if only to demonstrate how God works when his sovereignty is respected and men and woman don't chase after Him - other than in prayer. Duncan speaks about the men who were used by God to be an instrument of this revival in the Hebrides. Duncan calls them the praying men of Barvas. The boy whom Duncan speaks of is Donald MacPhail - who was sixteen at the time of this incident and who was himself saved in a village just three miles from Barvas. I knew Donald and fellowshipped with him in the early 1990's in Lewis.

But please let me also say this. Duncan Campbell speaks about Donald receiving a mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit a fortnight after he was saved. It is important to recognise this fact - because we must all know what God has done from Pentecost and still does today. If we are able to receive the sovereign hand of God in the village five miles away from the church in Berneray on that night - then we must also receive the witness of Duncan regarding Donald MacPhail - who was the instrument of God in prayer to ask God to send His power on this meeting, as the witness speaks. The video is just nine minuets long. God bless you.

 

[SophieT]

well whatever that is about

seems you are digging in and gathering rocks

or something

oh well...supper is served at my house

yet one thing is true...Jesus was speaking in a parable and Paul was not

(shrugs)

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Well they didn't hear the gospel being preached when they were saved.

But you could just read properly and seek the Lord instead of being contentious.

Many thousands of men, women and children were saved. Duncan bears witness that to his knowledge approximately 70% of the folks that were saved in the revival never heard the gospel being preached when they were saved. This is not to remove that in the Hebrides almost every man and woman of the near 100k peoples who lived on the Islands at that time knew of Christ because the Islands we[re] Calvinist and the children would have received a Christian education for generations.

Its a complete statement, sister. Not a doctrinal claim that people can be born again and never have heard of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

well whatever that is about

seems you are digging in and gathering rocks

or something

oh well...supper is served at my house

yet one thing is true...Jesus was speaking in a parable and Paul was not

(shrugs)

Go play hall monitor elsewhere.

 

[Magenta]

Duncan Campbell reported that seventy percent of all the people who were saved in the revival of the Outer Hebrides were saved with no intervention of men. They neither heard the gospel, nor were witnessed to, neither did any man or woman direct them, neither could they explain how they came to be acting as they did when they gathered in hundreds outside churches, in fields, and homes, and outside police stations.

You say it again here ^ in your OP. Either they did or they didn't. Your previous thread says they did.

Paul does speak to this (planting, watering, growing), but it has been denied in this thread.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

You say it again here ^ in your OP. Either they did or they didn't. Your previous thread says they did.

Paul does speak to this (planting, watering, growing), but it has been denied in this thread.

Duncan Campbell reported that seventy percent of all the people who were saved in the revival of the Outer Hebrides were saved with no intervention of men. They neither heard the gospel, nor were witnessed to, neither did any man or woman direct them, neither could they explain how they came to be acting as they did when they gathered in hundreds outside churches, in fields, and homes, and outside police stations. All they knew was that they were taken by a means in which God did not contradict their needs, yet their needs were not met until God finished with them. They fell in fields whilst at work on the harvest, fell into ditches whilst going to social events, and were ministered to by children and by anyone who it pleased God to bring to them in their moment of salvation. Entire villages were swept by the hand of God and buildings were shaken, children were caught up in a triumph of obedience, and the Kingdom of Heaven was evidenced in such children, for as it is written, of such as these is the Kingdom of Heaven. God has perfected His praise in children.

There is no contradiction between the two claims I reported and endorsed - you simply cannot receive it. And you say that this claim is in contradiction to what Paul spoke. Thus by that means you have me at odds with the Scripture. I'll add that to the growing list for the fire. Stop being so antagonistic. We are not in the play ground. Go in peace.

 

[Magenta]

There is no contradiction between the two claims I reported and endorsed - you simply cannot receive it. Stop being so antagonistic.

I was asking for clarification, which you refused to give, while you demanded
I soften my questions as you hammered away at me as you still do. Such hypocrisy.

Paul spoke of planting and watering and growing as separate events. This is in direct relation to Jesus' teaching.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

@Magenta

And what is tragic, sister, is if we were to read what is said, and stop looking for the means to correct others - then we may see that the source from which we quote to make our case (in this instant beginning in your post @#132 where you quoted from my post @#110) - we may not be so blind to reason - whereas the below citation is from the very same post @#110. Which is your current agitation. Try reading before you correct others. And just to say it plainly, sister, I have no ambition of teaching anyone. You don't find crowds of brethren on the edge of a ravine. We are not lemmings - we are sheep. So if we do find that our portion is the ravine - then it won't be in flocks either - but in sure footedness. Something many believers seriously lack.

The parable of the sower, however, is disclosing the condition of the hearer and expressly that of the pharisees who were the primary cause of that prophetic necessity - albeit, it also applies to Israel as well, because the parables were in fulfilment of a prophecy of Isaiah. Those who are born again as adults who have not directly heard the Gospel in the instant of their salvation may not for all that be lacking in hearing the Word of truth as a child. And in that sense what a child hears - a man may confess with his mouth. So what you have said is of course entirely valid in that meaning. But if we are to speak about men and women believing into Christ never having heard of Christ at all - then we must of course be vary careful how we say it - because therein lies an open door into occult paganism.

 

[Magenta]

Try reading before you correct others.

You should try that.

 

[Magenta]

OP has stated in another thread that those people either most likely or for certain previously heard the gospel.

I don't know. Since they had previously heard the gospel, the fact that they were
saved on a day when the gospel was not preached to them does not seem to mean
much, really. Plants can sprout and grow on a day when there is neither rain nor sunshine.

I wonder how many are saved sitting all by themselves as they ponder the meaning of life.

My first two posts were attempts to clarify what you may have been saying.

This one is questioning if what you say about Jesus and Paul is true.

Your primary meaning sounds like the parable of the sower. The parable of the sower (seeds) of course gives an impression that when the Gospel is heard (in that instant it is the Gospel of the Kingdom) then their is an immediate effect. The effect is as described in the parable. And yet to insist on that stark meaning and apply it to the Gospel of grace (as now is) is to miss that the parables are introduced precisely because Christ had already been refused.

Paul didn't seem to think so:

So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God,
Who makes things grow. He who plants and he who waters are one in
purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we
are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Jesus' parable does not come across to me as something that is instantaneous in all parts. i.e., The seed is
planted and roots in rocks and withers and dies in the sun. That does NOT happen all at once as you suppose.

 

[Blain]

hey Blain ~

I dunno...correct me if I am wrong, but did Jesus ever tell us to go out and conduct revivals?

I'll make something clear though, I did not need to read the op to be soured on revivals and I have always maintained this is not coming as so many 'prophets' today keep broadcasting that a big sweeping revival is coming and yahoo

is a revival like the earth being plowed in the spring only with hearts being plowed that life comes out again?

is it having all the work being done for us?

I have no doubt some are absolutely sincere but perhaps do not understand exactly what they are asking for, believing it must be 'all good' but we are living in days that require something else as evil is given more freedom...in response to the throwing off the warnings in scripture and the ignorance so many display of the Bible

I probably ask more questions than supply answers but we have to reach our own conclusions and not be drawn in by what appears to be obvious because so many are talking about it....I certainly don't think I have all the answers anyway

If revival does come it will be to reawaken the church, many have claimed it is coming but many are also just into the spiritual hype many want revival but are not ready for it they just the spiritual aspect of it not the work that is going to be done in it. Me personally I have felt a calling that I have been waiting to be called on for quite some time and am getting very impatient I know that I am to wait and that when the time comes I will be strengthened and empowered to do it now this could be the revival or it could simply be a strengthening of the heart when the time comes to answer my calling but I personally want to work and be used which is why I have my own reasons for sucha revival

Doors open in revivals doors that were previously closed God's hand moves in ways it never did before I don't want people to desire a revival for the wrong reason though as many already do getting into the spiritual hype however I also don't want people to be numb towards it either. I have a feeling it will come just not suddenly or out of nowhere it will come in an order lining up witha certain event following a different event what these events are exactly I am not entirely sure but I think when we see the first event we will feel the revival coming.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

This one is questioning if what you say about Jesus and Paul is true.

But I didn't say anything about Jesus and Paul other then to respond to your claim that Paul disagreed with my comment which you quoted.

In reading the parables, as presented by the Lord in Mathew chapter thirteen, (beginning with the parable of the sower through to the parable of the net in Matthew 13:1-52) - we see that the parables were according to a prophecy of Isaiah 6:9-12. And the immediate meaning in context of those who were hearing Christ is that the parables were given to make a separation and to establish the sovereignty of God. We simply need to read it. The means by which this separation is achieved is by speaking parables (Matthew 13:13). It is v18 of Matthew 13 where the Lord Himself gives us the meaning of the parable of the sower. One would assume that if we have the Lord's own word by way of explaining His own parable - then we had better not change the explanation into a mystery - when its delivery was given as a parable in order to separate those who were of the Kingdom from those who are not - according to the Father - thereby making the Father the sovereign party. If not - then we may find that we have taken the place of God. That severity is my reason for asking @Blain as I did ask him - and yet you have proven to be the mercy of God to him in your @#109 post. Praise God.

That is the closing paragraph I posted from which post you began this diatribe. Own your own words and let me own mine. The Lord is the one to whom we shall give an account. Now read @Blain's post last made. And the only thing to add to his own testimony is that what you are witnessing here is a semblance in meaning to make a separation between those who are seeking the kingdom of heaven first - in which case they had better lay down their lives for Christ - else desire to preserve their own lives - in which case the coming hand of the Father will pass them by when they could have been instantly changed and made ready for service.