One taken,one left. The rapture.

[Pilgrimshope]

1 thes 4 is vivid.

mat 25. ( the virgins gathered) is even more vivid.

mat 24 is vivid and clear starting in vs 36 on down.

this part ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah it’s pretty clear when Jesus returns at the end of world when the dead are raised up

and this part ?

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah a clear picture of judgement after Jesus returns

And this part ?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree those are all clear and cohesive

are you stuck on this part by chance ?

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how is he foretelling this and her the church isn’t going to be there to fulfill it ? All he’s saying there is forewarning the church then and today of the tribulation we will surely face in this world the only thing he says about being caught he up and gathered is that after he returns he’ll gather those from earth and heaven who believe

so when will he return in your view? Before the end or Will his coming cause the end ?

 

[Absolutely]

this part ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah it’s pretty clear when Jesus returns at the end of world when the dead are raised up

and this part ?

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah a clear picture of judgement after Jesus returns

And this part ?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree those are all clear and cohesive

are you stuck on this part by chance ?

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how is he foretelling this and her the church isn’t going to be there to fulfill it ? All he’s saying there is forewarning the church then and today of the tribulation we will surely face in this world the only thing he says about being caught he up and gathered is that after he returns he’ll gather those from earth and heaven who believe

so when will he return in your view? Before the end or Will his coming cause the end ?

Only the dead in christ resurrect.
In the virgin parable as well as rev 14:14 the earth continues.

In acts one the angels say Jesus returns "IN LIKE MANNER".

So, no end if the world in ANY of the many pretrib rapture verses.

You are looking through a postrib prism.

So there is really no debate.

There are no postrib rapture verses anywhere in the bible.

 

[Absolutely]

this part ?

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah it’s pretty clear when Jesus returns at the end of world when the dead are raised up

and this part ?

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31, 34-46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah a clear picture of judgement after Jesus returns

And this part ?

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree those are all clear and cohesive

are you stuck on this part by chance ?

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how is he foretelling this and her the church isn’t going to be there to fulfill it ? All he’s saying there is forewarning the church then and today of the tribulation we will surely face in this world the only thing he says about being caught he up and gathered is that after he returns he’ll gather those from earth and heaven who believe

so when will he return in your view? Before the end or Will his coming cause the end ?

you are aware that the gwtj is not at the rapture, rev 14:14, or the second coming in horses arent you?

 

[Absolutely]

“NOTE the omissions of the pretrib rapture verses by postribbers.”

which ones ? I’ve never read one please share those rather than insisting people are rejecting them which verses are you taking about ?

i have posted them many times

Many, many, many times

 

[Absolutely]

No. The "coming of the Lord" refers specifically to His Second Coming, just as Heb 9:28, which you quoted above, says.

At the Second coming, there will be the single resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) and Rev 20:4,5 SAYS that is the FIRST resurrection, which includes Tribulation martyrs, showing this FIRST resurrection to be the resurrection of the saved. ALL the saved.

This Second coming will end the Tribulation and then the King of kings will set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth, where ALL glorified believers will serve/reign with Him. Depending on their evaluation at the Bema (2 Cor 5:10).

It is AFTER the Millennial Reign that ALL unbelievers will be resurrected (minus glorified bodies) to appear at the GWT judgment, and after their evaluation, be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15

Mat 24 the while second half is DEVOTED TO another coming

Completely different to the one after the gt.

But omit it.
Go ahead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your ENTIRE DEAL IS OMISSION.
YOU ARE IN DENIAL.
YOU just demonstrated an orchestrated methodology of OMISSION

How funny. The Bible has COMPLETELY OMITTED your theory of a rapture trip to heaven with glorified believers.

Not one sentence about such a trip.

IT IS FLAT OUT COMICAL.

Yeah, it is.

You keep claiming others omit stuff and it is your rapture theory that was left out of the Bible.

Not a trace of such a trip to heaven with glorified believers.

You might want to stop talking about who's omitting what.

 

[FreeGrace2]

NOTE the omissions of the pretrib rapture verses by postribbers.
It is appalling.
Comical actually.

You have FAILED to provide any pretrib rapture verses. So it's YOU who omits from your posts.

If you actualy had pretrib rapture verses, you'd have been posting those verses in every post.

But, no. Just omission after omission.

Then their cunning tactics.
" show me a verse saying God takes believers to heaven"

When will you actually show such a verse? You keep omitting them. If they exist, that is.

And it's not for lack of asking for such verses. You believe the Bible is clear about a trip to heaven. btw, you failed to quote my question correctly. I ask for verses that show Jesus taking GLORIFIED believers to heaven. That's a huge difference from just "taking believers to heaven". Of course multitudes of believers have been taken to heaven. That's how they get there. Every believer who dies is taken to heaven.

What I ask for is showing resurrected and glorified believers being taken to heaven.

But of course you wouldn't want to be honest about my question would you.

I stick their noses in it.
They deny it.
Ironically there is NO VERSE in the bible....NOT ONE... pointing to a postrib rapture.

It's far worse than ironic that that anyone would make such a claim when the Bible has at least 2 such verses:

2 Thess 2:1, Rev 20:5.

 

[Amanuensis]

I left nothing out of anything. The scriptures teach about the coming of the Lord; singular, hence the “the coming” of the Lord.

No such phrase is found in the Bible as “the comings” of the Lord.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


The coming of the Lord refers to His return from heaven to earth, in which He appears and is seen by every eye. He gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture, so that they are with Him in the clouds, and then He destroys the wicked who are left on earth.


Coming (noun) — Parousia Strong’s # G3952

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

This is what the Bible teaches. The coming of the Lord is associated with the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture, in which we are gathered together unto the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17





Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8



But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Thessalonians 15:20-23



“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

• they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27

• Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The resurrection and rapture, where we are gathered together occurs at His coming.







JPT

There are lots of references to the coming of the Lord in the OT that applied to both his first and second coming. Those prophesies had a partial fulfilment and have more to come.

Since that is so, then it is not beyond reason to expect that his second coming will be multifaceted as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read Foxes book of martyrs.
The church has been through horrific persecution

Show me 1 postrib rapture verse.
Just one against my 10.
As of today, it is 10 to zero against a postrib rapture.

Please proceed to quote your 10 verses. I've never seen you do that.

And you've been shown 2 verses that prove a post trib resurrection.

Remember, the whole idea of "rapture" includes a trip to heaven after being glorified. And there is no such trip mentioned in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 thes 4 is vivid.

Yes, and NO mention of Jesus taking the glorified believers to heaven. Why did the Bible OMIT that trip if it is real?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Only the dead in christ resurrect.

The Bible refutes your opinion.

The Bible teaches in clear and plain words that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". So, that's ALL believers in the singular resurrection. There is NOTHING about ONLY "dead in Christ" being resurrected. ALL those who have believed in Christ, from Adam on, will be resurrected "when He comes". 1 Cor 15:23.

In acts one the angels say Jesus returns "IN LIKE MANNER".

That phrase refers what people WERE DOING.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pilgrimshope said:
“NOTE the omissions of the pretrib rapture verses by postribbers.”

which ones ? I’ve never read one please share those rather than insisting people are rejecting them which verses are you taking about ?

i have posted them many times

Many, many, many times

Sure, go ahead and just keep adding "many". Make a very long string of them. So what?

All you do is make claims.

This was a perfect opportunity to prove your case, but you simply OMITTED verses that would have supported your claims.

Why would you OMIT rather than prove by evidence?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Mat 24 the while second half is DEVOTED TO another coming

Completely different to the one after the gt.

But omit it.
Go ahead.

There is nothing to "omit", other than multiple resurrections.

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.

• Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
• Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
• Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.

- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.

• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.

5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.

• 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
• Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

That's why I OMIT the opinion about multiple resurrections. There won't be any. Just one for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

 

[RichMan]

There are lots of references to the coming of the Lord in the OT that applied to both his first and second coming. Those prophesies had a partial fulfilment and have more to come.

Since that is so, then it is not beyond reason to expect that his second coming will be multifaceted as well.

The partial fulfillment was His first and His second will fulfill the prophesies.
First happened, once not many times.
Second happens once, not many times.
His first coming was in an instant and so will His second.

 

[kleronomos]

"before the flood" no one "perished" or was "DESTROYED [G622] [ALL]"


In the Noah illustration (Jesus is using), the "one taken" was [and will be] "taken away IN JUDGMENT"... and the other "left" was [and will be] "left on the earth [in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing / bearing children... in order to "[actively] FILL [FILLED] the [whole] earth" Dan2:35c (future) / Gen9:1 (past) / Matt24&Lk17 (future, using these "past" examples) ["the number of whom is at the sand of the sea" Rev20:8 in the earthly MK age, by the END of it]


...but ^ what was stated to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [US] (to/for/about whom the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" SOLELY pertains, NOT to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods), this [is said, instead]:

"...that, WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier] *OR* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same Greek word and context/meaning as IN VERSE 6 a few verses earlier (NOT he "sleep" word meaning "sleep IN DEATH" that the PREVIOUS CHPT used!! NO!)], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him."



Indeed there are distinctions that you are completely disregarding, in your quest to cling to your (incorrect) idea that the text sates, "before the flood they [Noah and crew] WERE TAKEN AWAY [i.e. like a "rapture"]"... which is NOT what the text is actually conveying, but rather what "your big idea" is IMPOSING upon the text.



I know... you love me.






[again, for the readers: I do not believe the "Noah" and "Lot" examples are illustrating / representing "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... but persons ('saints') who will be preserved THROUGH the tribulation period, and who will remain on the earth (i.e. be the ones "left") at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth, TO ENTER (as the "BLESSED") the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (capable of reproducing / bearing children--the ONLY ones at that point who will have that capacity--the "resurrected saints" will NOT have that capacity, though they will also be [resurrected IN TIME FOR to be also] present to enjoy the MK age)... and due to the "and DESTROYED [G622] ALL" that occurs then, NO "UNBELIEVERS" will be "BLESSED" to ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age... however, the children [/grandchildren, etc] born to them will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS" and it is THESE ONLY who will be susceptible to "death" in the MK age, which will be MUCH MORE RARE and reserved ONLY for the rebellious (in the MK age)]

LET'S just say for the sake of argument that the Church is 'gone' from earth and in heaven (to wait until 'the blood relatives of 'Israel" go through tribulations to be punished for being blinded for the past few thousand years. These are the ones who will 'see the church rapture' and just somehow 'know who they' are and so INSTANTLY become Christians with full knowledge of what to do and what not to do, and its just a crying shame because they didn't have any warning like the church did as to what was to coming and so didn't prepare at all to barter for their food and stuff, ok,)


So, Satan has healed the deadly wound, the image set up, and the whole world buying and selling with the mark of the beast. We have the two witnesses, to help those who SAW the church 'raptured' come to knowledge and so instantly know all about Satan and what is taking place so know they can't take the mark to buy and sell and those few souls become Christians just in time to be killed/martyred. Again, OK.

Doesn't it seem amazing that watching the church 'being raptured' gives them all the knowledge they need, that we can't get, even with years of study. Now timing wise they have like a minute to go from nonbelieving, never having read a word of God to standing and defending the words of God in 10 day trials, not taking the mark to eat or get gas or work for the next few years. OK

Now we have the 'whole earth' who has been deceived, taken the mark of the beast, worshipped Satan, and apparently a lucky 'few' Christians who didn't take the mark and weren't killed.

Would that be a correct assessment of the situation as you see it?

 

[Amanuensis]

The partial fulfillment was His first and His second will fulfill the prophesies.
First happened, once not many times.
Second happens once, not many times.
His first coming was in an instant and so will His second.

There were things people did not understand about the prophesies of his first coming until after they were fulfilled. Nevertheless they could have hope without being clear on the details.

There are things about the second coming we don't know until after they are fulfilled but we can still have hope and expectation and focus on living ready and reaching the lost.

I have often wondered if it would be a sign in the heavens that even though it suddenly is announced one day, it is drawn out over a period of days. Like a star getting closer until they realize it is not just a star but the Lord in the glory of the Father. The believers are transfigured like the sun and rise.. But the gathering in the sky lasts for days.

 

[kleronomos]

The only one that had any different dynamic pre flood was noah.
He went into the ark. Ark is a type of heaven.
Before the flood , we have:
One group had normal life
One group entered the ark.
Both groups get " taken away" in the flood.
( Noah to the sky, the others to "trying to survive").
There is zero there of "wicked taken first".
Same in the pretrib rapture.

WHICH GROUP HAD A NORMAL LIFE?

Genesis 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth,

and IT GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.



Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


SO WE HAVE ENOCH, WHO PROPHESIZED OF THE FALLEN ANGELS. THAT is no where near normal as a matter of fact it is so far from normal that God almost killed all mankind.

Then we have Satan and his angels coming to the earth and MOST LIKELY ENOCH BACK TO WITNESS again. AND TO BE KILLED, as we know every man shall see death and judgment (except those alive and remaining at his coming and IN REALITY, they have SEEN Death with their eyes, BUT THE AGE HAS TO END SOMEHOW. It's not like there could ever be a group WHERE ALL THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' WERE CHANGED BUT THE ONE TIME.



So there was lots of TRIBULATION going on, and the whole world was 'deceived' by these fallen angels EXCEPT for Noah and his family.

AND JUDGEMENT CAME (the flood) AND THE EVIL SOULS DIED/went to sleep

WAY BEFORE THE ARK ROSE UP, DIDN'T THEY?

 

[kleronomos]

That's BESIDE the point (the point being discussed in THAT post that you quoted, didn't "have to do" with the 70ad events which is recorded ONLY in the Lk21:12-24a,b SECTION of the Olivet Discourse, where v.12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [all these beginning of birth pangs--that Matthew 24:4 STARTS OFF with]" (i.e. the SEALS at the START of the far-future TRIB YRS)... v.12 "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE," the events of 70ad must transpire BEFORE THOSE.

However, what was being discussed in THAT post (that you'd quoted), we were discussing the "eschatological" aspects (of the questions they'd posed), which have to do with (the parts regarding) "of THY COMING and of the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (what we know of as the eschatological matters--i.e. the far-future events, not the near-future events having to do with "70ad events" [recorded only in His response found in the LUKE 21:12-24a,b SECTION I just mentioned]; whereas Matt24:4 STARTS OFF with the "far-future" aspects / of His overall response; "the beginning of birth PANGS" / "SEALS" are future to "our Rapture," even... They are what "kick off" the TRIB yrs])

Another question. Do you believe the Lords Day begins with the 'contractions' birth pangs or do you believe it is when the labor pains come one on top of the other, to where finally 'THE BIRTH' takes place?



Do you relate to 'the birth of the New Age, the Lords Day, same as you would this?
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[kleronomos]

Read Foxes book of martyrs.
The church has been through horrific persecution

Show me 1 postrib rapture verse.
Just one against my 10.
As of today, it is 10 to zero against a postrib rapture.

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure

Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer

Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,


In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When He shall come to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS (BECAUSE CHRISTIANS ARE STILL HERE ON EARTH AND TO WELCOME HIS GLORIOUS RETURN WHEN HE RETURNS TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH), and to be admired in all them that believe


(because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power

That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT 'RETURN' IS BEING SPOKEN OF?

That ye be not sOOn shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

HERE IS 1. GATHERED TO THE LORD AFTER THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED. (FIND OUT HOW HE IS REVEALED IN JUST A COUPLE OF VERSES)

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. THAT'S 2 (Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. THAT'S 3 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.))

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming THAT'S 4
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan THAT'S 5 with all power and signs and lying wonders,


And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. THAT'S 6



Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, THAT'S 7 and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
THAT'S GREAT

 

[DavidTree]

There are lots of references to the coming of the Lord in the OT that applied to both his first and second coming. Those prophesies had a partial fulfilment and have more to come.

Since that is so, then it is not beyond reason to expect that his second coming will be multifaceted as well.

Multifacited Yes, BUT only One Singular Second Coming.

There are NO multiple Comings (more then 1st & 2nd) of the LORD in the Prophets, Gospel, Letters & Revelation