'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

Snacks · Mar 12, 2022

Those who place their salvation in their works are self righteous. Obedience to which you refer is having faith in Christ.

oyster67 · Mar 12, 2022

peldom10 said:

Salvation is baptism(by the Spirit), but if you think he was dunked in a river...

...

never mind.

oyster67 · Mar 12, 2022

presidente said:

Obviously not. What isssssssssss your point?

Wansvic · Mar 12, 2022

Snacks said:

I agree there is definitely a difference. But many fail to understand this.

presidente · Mar 12, 2022

Wansvic said:

John baptized for the remission of sins. Paul rebaptized those who had partaken in John's baptism as recorded in Acts 19.

presidente · Mar 12, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Can you show us scripture that teaches this?

cv5 · Mar 12, 2022

presidente said:

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I know of no scripture that says that believing Jesus died for our sins is enough to save us. I have heard 'sinner's prayers' that seem to be based on that assumption... but are probably just from people who do not think the connection between their doctrine and the words they speak through.
But let me ask you, do you think someone can be saved without believing Christ rose from the dead? Plenty of people died on crosses under the Romans. But they weren't qualified to die for our sins...except one. And Jesus did something unique. He rose from the dead.

I see there is a context to Paul's explanation of whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is some context in the passage. Earlier in the passage, he talks about believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead--- the heart believes unto righteousness. Paul wrote earlier that Christ rose for our justification. And he says to confess that Jesus is Lord. Confession is made unto salvation.

Then, a bit later, this quote that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....and how shall they hear without a preacher.... then talk of preaching good news, obeying the Gospel and a reference to Isaiah 53 which tells about Christ's sufferings.

John 1 says that as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name. So some people take that verse and say, "Pray this prayer to receive Christ.....if you believe it you are saved." There is no mention of the cross or the resurrection. I think some preachers who do this, if you asked them if someone needed to believe Jesus died and rose again, or died for our sins and rose again to be saved would say 'yes.' But they have seen the quick-and-easy prayer modeled so much it feels natural. We are creatures of ritual and tradition whether we like those words or not. People who hate the word 'religion' tend to be religious themselves.

Reductionist Approach to the Gospel and Evangelism or a 'Complete View'
A reductionist viewpoint might look at a verse and say 'There is a promise of salvation here, so let's just use this.' Or it may lead to stripping of parts of those verses. For example, if there is a verse that talks about becoming a son of God to them that 'receive Him', they may assume that 'receive Him' means to follow the ritual they have seen of repeating a prayer, rather than the idea of knowing Who He is and believing that He is Who He says He is, understanding His role, etc.

In Luke 24, Jesus said that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in Christ's name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. Peter said in a message in Acts that a man had been healed through faith in Jesus' name and that there is no other name under heaven whereby men may be saved. So should we just preach salvation and teach people to claim that promise, or do we assume there is a broader context and we should consider other teachings about salvation? Do we point out that Jesus' words came write after a verse that refers to what was written that Christ should suffer and rise again?

Do we focus specifically on Romans 10:9-10 and declare people saved if they believed a confession (or confession in the form of a prayer) that says that Jesus is Lord and that they believe He rose from the dead? Or do we think this is in the context of a whole epistle which also mentions Christ dying as a sacrifice.... a propitiation? Do we leave out the cross and just mention the resurrection. Romans 10 does quote a line references Isaiah 53. Romans 6 also talks about those who are baptized into Jesus Christ Jesus being baptized into His death and that they shall also be in the likeness of the resurrection.

Water Baptism
When we consider the actual __practice___ of the apostles and the early church in evangelism, water baptism plays an important role. Luke recorded how Christ said that it was written that Christ should suffer, rise from the dead and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached. Yet he records how Peter preached and that after explaining the events of Pentecost from scripture, preaching that they had killed Jesus and that He rose, ascended, and is Lord and Christ, he told his listeners to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of sins. The response Peter wanted was repentance and he offered forgiveness of sins through baptism.

And we see Paul tell of his own baptism in Acts 22. The man the Lord sent after he was blinded at his experience with Christ, Ananias told him Why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins.

And Paul's treatment of baptism is also relevant here. Not only does he connect it to the resurrection in Romans 6, but we also see in Colossians 2 that his readers were baptized into Christ's and raised with Christ through faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead.
Peter wrote baptism now saves you, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.' (I Peter. 3:21) Similar to Colossians 2 and Romans 6, Peter says baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by faith...and baptism saves you as an answer of a good conscience toward God. In Colossians 2, baptism is to be done in faith.

In Acts 2 in Peter's sermon, Peter associates baptism with forgiveness of sin, and Ananias in Acts 22 associates it with washing away sin and calling upon the name of the Lord.

What I have seen is those with a 'reductionist' approach to the Gospel sometimes take a few verses and ignore the rest, building a doctrine of it. Romans 10:9-10 because THE way to preach salvation--confessing Jesus a Lord and believing God raised Him from the dead, and if someone else uses the Acts 2:38's 'method', he isn't saved. Why is one 'method' from one verse better than another one? Shouldn't we love and accept all scripture.

The doctrinal question is whether these verses are intended to be interpreted out of context? For example, someone might believe that an individual can be saved by just hearing Romans 10:9-10, but without hearing or believing that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah who died for our sins. But isn't the context importance? Paul has already talked about the death of Christ earlier in Romans. The chapter also alludes to a chapter of Isaiah which talked about Christ's suffering.

In Acts 2, Peter does not explain that Christ's death was for our sins. He tells his audience that they had killed the Prince of life. Maybe the audience got saved without being told that, or maybe we are to understand that Peter said a lot more that day and that we are getting a truncated version... and we are supposed to understand from the larger context of Christian teachings or writings the overall gospel message.

Seems like a lot of doubt and extraneous complication there.

First of all one must be convicted and agree with Holy Spirit and admit the truth about oneself....that you are born in Adams original sin a bankrupt sinner.

Secondly you accept your condemnation and throw yourself opon the mercy of God.

Thirdly you receive the free gift of acquittal in the Name and by the Blood of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Fourthly you abide in Him as the Lord of all creation and your Lord, make a home for Him in your heart, live a fruitful life of faith, repentance and obedience to the Word, growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ through the washing of the Word.

For the elect all of this is a foregone conclusion. The effectual call and new birth to Sonship in the Family of God always brings a saved person all the way to glorification and eternal fellowship in the Kingdom.

DanielLL · Mar 12, 2022

cv5 said:

Exodus 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.

Proverbs 17:23 A wicked man taketh a gift out of the bosom to pervert the ways of judgment.

Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!

cv5 said:

No blood offering, of beast or bird, or man, can take away sin, for how can the conscience be purged from sin by the shedding of innocent blood? Nay, it will increase the condemnation.
The priests indeed receive such offering as reconciliation of the worshippers for the trespasses against the law of Moses, but for sins agains the Law of God there can be no remission, save by repentance and amendment.

1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

-Blood Sacrifice is leaven from the pharisees:

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Ezekiel 5:6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.

-Corruption of the covenant of Levi:

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

-Blood Sacrifice is not what our Father in Heaven wants:

Psalms 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

-Blood Sacrifice was not commanded by our Father:

Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

-Blood sacrifice is "of fools" and evil:

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

-Blood sacrifice is an abomination:

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

presidente · Mar 12, 2022

oyster67 said:

That there is some background information one must understand and believe to have the faith described in Romans 10:9-10.

peldom10 · Mar 12, 2022

Snacks said:

Nah, you’re angry and self righteous. You get hostile when you can’t control people who disagree with you. You also think your salvation depends on your actions. That’s works salvation which is heresy.

God’s grace is a free gift given to people who place their faith in Jesus Christ. If you actually think the simplicity of John 3:16-18 is a false scriptural reference then you are to be pitied.

Have fun.

peldom10 · Mar 12, 2022

Snacks said:

Well you got some of it right....now complete it. If we believe, we will do....a b c d etc.
Are you afraid to include that addition? Or do you wish to say that's all one must do?
The latter it seems.

peldom10 · Mar 12, 2022

Snacks said:

You should study scripture more.

cv5 · Mar 12, 2022

Snacks said:

Obedience is the result of salvation. As is worship and every other good fruit.

Carry_Your_Name · Mar 12, 2022

presidente said:

“I (John the Baptist) indeed baptize you with water, but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not e worthy to loose, He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Luke 3:16; also Matthew 3:11 and Mark 1:7-8 as parallel verses). Water baptism only prepares the way, true conversion of heart is baptism by the Holy Spirit.

Snacks · Mar 12, 2022

peldom10 said:

I don’t partake in works salvation, nor do I recommend it. You on the other hand…

Snacks · Mar 12, 2022

cv5 said:

Exactly. We do because we can, not because we have to. Big difference.

Snacks · Mar 12, 2022

peldom10 said:

A well anticipated, childish response.

Snacks · Mar 12, 2022

peldom10 said:

Everyone should, including you.

presidente · Mar 12, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Paul gave baptism in the name of Jesus to men who had already received John's baptism.

peldom10 · Mar 12, 2022

Carry_Your_Name said:

Not true;

Baptism is Required page 1 of 2

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ......

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;

....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

'Reductionist' versus 'Complete' view of the Gospel

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Banned