Jesus said understand it and know it! Do you?

[cv5]

We disagree on the implications of the infinitive verb. While it can mean incomplete actions, such as a mortgage payment made to fulfill the requirements of a mortgage, a payment made to fulfill the mortgage is different; it indicates completion. So too, Jesus' words indicate completion, not "partial payment". One would only conclude the 'partial payment' idea if one already believed that concept.


The unrepentant Jews who survived this holocaust were led away into slavery; that was a specific event, though it may have taken weeks to complete. As for the "trodding down", it need only have begun. I don't agree that event needed to be completed for Jesus' words to be valid; His use of "until" allows the completion to take place over a longer period. Again, it seems that you are forcing an a priori interpretation onto the text.


That's all circular and a priori argumentation.


I don't agree that Revelation was penned in 95. I believe that John wrote it closer to 65.


22:7 certainly appears to describe the events of 70. However, 22:8 leads to 9, wherein the servants are sent out to spread the good news. I don't see how this puts any of the other events described in ch. 24 out of sequence.


If, as I believe, John wrote Revelation in about 65, the temporal indicators in ch. 1 fit perfectly with the events of 66-70, and there is no problem with the sequence of events in 24.


Again, this is circular reasoning.


Likewise; I appreciate your explanation.

Dino.....the thing is TDW draws from ALL of Jesus sayings and parables and prophecies. Into one beautifully tidy package. The pattern/portrait/mosaic displayed is indubitably clear......and it certainly is NOT 70AD preterism.

God willing one of these days you're going to finally behold the refulgent resplendent glorious truth of prophecy. Which, in truth, is a near-future pretrib rapture of the Church and millennial reign, with Israel redeemed, reconstituted and recommission for glorious service.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Dino246 , thank you for your thoughts. = )


Can you explain (in your viewpoint) what it looks like for "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11) to take place and unfold upon the earth AFTER the 70ad events (spelled out in vv.12-24a,b [not c] of Lk21)??

... as v.12 discloses: "But BEFORE ALL THESE [before all these birth pangs-->Lk21:8-11/Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8<--BEFORE ALL THOSE]"... the 70ad events in vv.12-24a,b [not c] must take place PRIOR TO those "beginning of birth pangs"


How can this be explained, according to your viewpoint?


What do you see (and "when") as "the beginning of birth pangs" (in relation to the events of 70ad)?








[again, for the readers: "the beginning of birth pangs" = the "seals" of Rev6 at the START of the "in quickness [noun]" time period of 1:1 / 1:19c /4:1]

 

[Dino246]

Can you explain (in your viewpoint) what it looks like for "the beginning of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11) to take place and unfold upon the earth AFTER the 70ad events (spelled out in vv.12-24a,b [not c] of Lk21)??

No, because I don't believe that the "beginning of birth pangs" did take place after 70 AD.

... as v.12 discloses: "But BEFORE ALL THESE [before all these birth pangs-->Lk21:8-11/Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8<--BEFORE ALL THOSE]"... the 70ad events in vv.12-24a,b [not c] must take place PRIOR TO those "beginning of birth pangs"

How can this be explained, according to your viewpoint?

Luke does not say that these signs are the beginning of birth pangs (I noted previously that he did). Matthew does, and Mark does, though Mark does not put a temporal indicator on the next section about persecution. Matthew says then persecution will come, while Luke says before this persecution will come.

So, we have an apparent contradiction. Historically, there was persecution beginning from Stephen's martyrdom as well as the 'birth pangs' events between 30 and 70. I would have to do a little more digging to sort out the apparent contradiction, but I am confident that the texts do not indicate two completely separate sets of events.

What do you see (and "when") as "the beginning of birth pangs" (in relation to the events of 70ad)?

Exactly what Jesus described, as recorded in all three accounts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Exactly what Jesus described, as recorded in all three accounts.

I'm assuming you agree with me that Luke 21:8-11 / Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 ALL [alike] speak of / describe "the beginning of birth pangs" [SAME events].


My question is: what does Lk21:12 MEAN by saying (of those ^ ), "But BEFORE ALL THESE..."

... "But before all these...," what is it that the text is saying must take place "BEFORE" all these?? ["BEFORE" all these beginning of birth pangs--what is it that the text is saying must occur / take place "BEFORE" those?]

 

[Dino246]

I'm assuming you agree with me that Luke 21:8-11 / Matthew 24:4-8 / Mark 13:5-8 ALL [alike] speak of / describe "the beginning of birth pangs" [SAME events].


My question is: what does Lk21:12 MEAN by saying (of those ^ ), "But BEFORE ALL THESE..."

... "But before all these...," what is it that the text is saying must take place "BEFORE" all these?? ["BEFORE" all these beginning of birth pangs--what is it that the text is saying must occur / take place "BEFORE" those?]

Asked and answered: persecution of Christians.

 

[cv5]

No, because I don't believe that the "beginning of birth pangs" did take place after 70 AD.


Luke does not say that these signs are the beginning of birth pangs (I noted previously that he did). Matthew does, and Mark does, though Mark does not put a temporal indicator on the next section about persecution. Matthew says then persecution will come, while Luke says before this persecution will come.

So, we have an apparent contradiction. Historically, there was persecution beginning from Stephen's martyrdom as well as the 'birth pangs' events between 30 and 70. I would have to do a little more digging to sort out the apparent contradiction, but I am confident that the texts do not indicate two completely separate sets of events.


Exactly what Jesus described, as recorded in all three accounts.

I am curious......are you also an amillennialist?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Dino246 , so what I gather of what you are saying, your "sequence / chronology" of the events spelled out in Lk21 goes like this:

1) [But BEFORE all these "beginning of birth pangs"]--the "persecution of Christians"--vv.12-19 (where v.19 ends with the words, "in your patience, possess ye your souls");


2) [insert here, per your interpretation of the "sequence"-->]"the beginning of birth pangs" - Lk21:8-11 / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8;


3) the events of or surrounding 70ad (including the "see"-then-"flee") STARTING in v.20<--what in the text (transitioning from v.19 to v.20) makes you know that, in some intervening time-period (however brief), "the beginning of birth pangs" have taken place (and supposedly CONCLUDED by the 70ad events)?
Verse 20 starts off with "And when ye shall see..." (which you are equating with the AOD [singular/singular] of Matt24:15, "spoken of by Daniel the prophet"--which was "where" in Daniel, spoken of, in your view? [and, you mean, occurring in 70ad, right?]);

--Do you believe "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" are just the "BEGINNING" of NO more of them that will [that is, will not] follow on from "THESE"?

--Or do you believe "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8-11) lead to even MORE "birth pangs" (coz THOSE were just "the BEGINNING of" them)?

--Do the "more of them" come (and conclude) BEFORE or (further occur) AFTER the 70ad events, in your view?

--Do you agree that "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" EQUAL [/ ARE] the SEALS of Rev6?

--What then constitutes the "For THEN shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (is this referring to the FULL-BLOWN "birth pangs" taking place AFTER the [supposed] "AOD [singular/singular]" in 70ad [according to your viewpoint]?)

--Or was EVERYTHING concluded by the point in time surrounding the 70ad events (having to do with the "that all things having been written may be FULFILLED [completely and entirely, in and by 70ad, according to your viewpoint]")?



Just trying to ascertain your viewpoint a little better (for now).

Thanks. = )

 

[Dino246]

I am curious......are you also an amillennialist?

I don't subscribe to labels, because of exactly that kind of assumptive question. That you ask as you do tells me that you are dismissive of any person who holds an opinion with which you disagree. I see no reason to continue conversing with you.

 

[Dino246]

^ @Dino246 , so what I gather of what you are saying, your "sequence / chronology" of the events spelled out in Lk21 goes like this:

1) [But BEFORE all these "beginning of birth pangs"]--the "persecution of Christians"--vv.12-19 (where v.19 ends with the words, "in your patience, possess ye your souls");


2) [insert here, per your interpretation of the "sequence"-->]"the beginning of birth pangs" - Lk21:8-11 / Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8;


3) the events of or surrounding 70ad (including the "see"-then-"flee") STARTING in v.20<--what in the text (transitioning from v.19 to v.20) makes you know that, in some intervening time-period (however brief), "the beginning of birth pangs" have taken place (and supposedly CONCLUDED by the 70ad events)?
Verse 20 starts off with "And when ye shall see..." (which you are equating with the AOD [singular/singular] of Matt24:15, "spoken of by Daniel the prophet"--which was "where" in Daniel, spoken of, in your view? [and, you mean, occurring in 70ad, right?]);

--Do you believe "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" are just the "BEGINNING" of NO more of them that will [that is, will not] follow on from "THESE"?

--Or do you believe "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8-11) lead to even MORE "birth pangs" (coz THOSE were just "the BEGINNING of" them)?

--Do the "more of them" come (and conclude) BEFORE or (further occur) AFTER the 70ad events, in your view?

--Do you agree that "the BEGINNING of birth pangs" EQUAL [/ ARE] the SEALS of Rev6?

--What then constitutes the "For THEN shall be GREAT tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (is this referring to the FULL-BLOWN "birth pangs" taking place AFTER the [supposed] "AOD [singular/singular]" in 70ad [according to your viewpoint]?)

--Or was EVERYTHING concluded by the point in time surrounding the 70ad events (having to do with the "that all things having been written may be FULFILLED [completely and entirely, in and by 70ad, according to your viewpoint]")?



Just trying to ascertain your viewpoint a little better (for now).

Thanks. = )

I'll respond to your post on one condition: that you remove all marks of emphasis (bold, italic, and capitalization). Frankly, it's hard to read, and I'm not in the mood to wade through it.

 

[soberxp]

It's possible that you are also Antichrist without knowing it. When you think someone can't be saved, if you don't pray for these people, you are Antichrist.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'll respond to your post on one condition: that you remove all marks of emphasis (bold, italic, and capitalization). Frankly, it's hard to read, and I'm not in the mood to wade through it.

[emphasis mine ^ in bold, to show the part I'm addressing in particular ^ ]

Sure. I can try to get to that tomorrow or Monday, when I have more time to re-quote my post you are talking about and undo all emphasis, which, quite frankly, is quite a time-consuming task... but I will gladly attempt it, so as to make it easier for you to read and comprehend what I've put... provided I don't forget to do so, which is also quite possible. Not purposely forget, mind you. I'll be sure to remove every stitch of emphasis.

My last attempt at revising my post #33 in post #35--to remove all emphasis--had me missing some spots of editing. Again, it's a time-consuming and tedious task to remove all emphasis that has already been put. lol. But I will attempt to remove all emphasis as best I can.

I don't subscribe to labels, because of exactly that kind of assumptive question. That you ask as you do tells me that you are dismissive of any person who holds an opinion with which you disagree. I see no reason to continue conversing with you.

 

[Runningman]

In Mark 13:14 But when you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains: I thank I understand it. You find it spoken of in Danial 9:27 and Danial 12:11. I thank Paul explained it best in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 Satan sets himself up in the Tempel of God proclaiming that he is God; but he is the antichrist or the instead of Christ cuts of the daily sacrifice and causes many to say they are Christians to follow after him. Remember that this is Jesus speaking in Mark 13 and it is Jesus that says let the reader understand; I thank we all need to understand it. Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: I thank this has to do with Israel becoming a nation again, and the vision of the 2 baskets of figs in Jeramiah 24.

Did you notice the fig tree is mentioned in Isaiah 34, Matthew 24, and Revelation 6?

Isaiah 34:4
4And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Matthew 24:29,32
29...the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Revelation 6:13-14
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I didn't include the whole context for the sake of brevity, but I provided enough to lead anyone who is interested on the right path. This means the day of the Lord is after the return of Christ, after the rapture of the Church, post-tribulation. The scriptures are remarkably clear on this.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[emphasis mine ^ in bold, to show the part I'm addressing in particular ^ ]
Sure. I can try to get to that tomorrow or Monday, when I have more time to re-quote my post you are talking about and undo all emphasis, which, quite frankly, is quite a time-consuming task... but I will gladly attempt it, so as to make it easier for you to read and comprehend what I've put... provided I don't forget to do so, which is also quite possible. Not purposely forget, mind you. I'll be sure to remove every stitch of emphasis.

My last attempt at revising my post #33 in post #35--to remove all emphasis--had me missing some spots of editing. Again, it's a time-consuming and tedious task to remove all emphasis that has already been put. lol. But I will attempt to remove all emphasis as best I can.

For the record, I tried my durndest to pattern that post of mine--under discussion, my post #47 not shown here--after Dino246's Post #32 - https://christianchat.com/threads/jesus-said-understand-it-and-know-it-do-you.204543/post-4799079 ...for the very reasons now being addressed.

Epic fail, I guess. lol

 

[Dino246]

[emphasis mine ^ in bold, to show the part I'm addressing in particular ^ ]

Sure. I can try to get to that tomorrow or Monday, when I have more time to re-quote my post you are talking about and undo all emphasis, which, quite frankly, is quite a time-consuming task... but I will gladly attempt it, so as to make it easier for you to read and comprehend what I've put... provided I don't forget to do so, which is also quite possible. Not purposely forget, mind you. I'll be sure to remove every stitch of emphasis.

My last attempt at revising my post #33 in post #35--to remove all emphasis--had me missing some spots of editing. Again, it's a time-consuming and tedious task to remove all emphasis that has already been put. lol. But I will attempt to remove all emphasis as best I can.

Don't worry about it... I'll try to sort through it when I have the energy. I would suggest that you cut back on the emphasis though. After all, if everything is important, nothing is important.

 

[cv5]

I don't subscribe to labels, because of exactly that kind of assumptive question. That you ask as you do tells me that you are dismissive of any person who holds an opinion with which you disagree. I see no reason to continue conversing with you.

Dino.....what sayest thou? Is it a matter of if or when?

Acts1:6
"When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?"

 

[Thewatchman]

You have all missed the point I was after. 1. Do you understand that Mark 13:1-13 are a lead up to the main event verse 14.

 

[Thewatchman]

The parable of the fig tree sets a point in time for the start of the final generation till Jesus comes. Do we know the exact day NO, but we can know the season.

 

[Thewatchman]

Dino 246 Jesus said there SHALL NOT be one stone left standing upon another. What do you thank the west wall is? Do you thank God would use some little tin horned General do his work? Jesus will destroy it with His coming.

 

[Thewatchman]

No... but if for some reason I do find myself in Judea, I would get out of there. Do you think the first century Christians outside of Judea went to Judea, and then fled to the mountains? I pretty sure they just stayed where they were.

No... but if for some reason I do find myself in Judea, I would get out of there. Do you think the first century Christians outside of Judea went to Judea, and then fled to the mountains? I pretty sure they just stayed where they were.

No... but if for some reason I do find myself in Judea, I would get out of there. Do you think the first century Christians outside of Judea went to Judea, and then fled to the mountains? I pretty sure they just stayed where they were.

Do you not understand what Jesus is talking about in Mathew 24, or Mark 13?

 

[cv5]

Dino 246 Jesus said there SHALL NOT be one stone left standing upon another. What do you thank the west wall is? Do you thank God would use some little tin horned General do his work? Jesus will destroy it with His coming.

No. The west wall is part of the 35 acre Antonia fortress. NOT the Temple.

Check out Bob Cornuke - The Temple on YouTube.