One taken,one left. The rapture.
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Good Morning Brother Abs,
I am dissappointed that you did not show up for coffee - it was very good with homemade banana muffins.
There are two different aspects portrayed in comprehensive view in Scripture concerning "taken".
Simplified Version of the Overall View from all scripture:
Both groups are taken - one is taken/gathered unto the LORD while another group is taken and slaughtered.
Don't get hung up on "taken" = just make sure you are the one looking for His Coming and not the false rapture that HE warned us of in Matthew ch24.
Gotta go now - see you later
I am dissappointed that you did not show up for coffee - it was very good with homemade banana muffins.
There are two different aspects portrayed in comprehensive view in Scripture concerning "taken".
Simplified Version of the Overall View from all scripture:
Both groups are taken - one is taken/gathered unto the LORD while another group is taken and slaughtered.
Don't get hung up on "taken" = just make sure you are the one looking for His Coming and not the false rapture that HE warned us of in Matthew ch24.
Gotta go now - see you later
Let's look at Mat 24.
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Mat 24:38-40 KJV
"They" were eating, drinking, and marrying until the flood. Then "they" were taken away. One remains while the other ("they") is taken.
But who are the "they" that were "taken away"? The ones that were destroyed. This is made clear in Luke.
"They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." - Luke 17:27 KJV
Mat 24:38-40 is not about a skyward rapture because Luke makes it clear that "they" are the ones that are destroyed.
Let's look at 1 Thes 4.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV
1 Thes 4:16-17 is at the very least a chronology. It does not state the immediacy of the events, only "This then that."
It would be like describing that "I will go fishing and then have a barbecue with my catch." I might keep the fish in a freezer for years before having the barbecue, but what I said would still be true if that were the case.
Any time after or during the Lord's descent, the dead shall rise. Any time after the dead rise (and during or after the Lord's descent) the living remnant shall be caught up in cloud. This places the "caught up in cloud" at the earliest the descent and at the latest the fading of heaven and earth.
When we interpret through 1 Cor 15:52, we see the changing of the living remnant happens in an instant at the last trump.
We're left with two things to consider: 1) when is the Lord's descent, and; 2) when and how long is the last trump.
"For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Mat 24:38-40 KJV
"They" were eating, drinking, and marrying until the flood. Then "they" were taken away. One remains while the other ("they") is taken.
But who are the "they" that were "taken away"? The ones that were destroyed. This is made clear in Luke.
"They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all." - Luke 17:27 KJV
Mat 24:38-40 is not about a skyward rapture because Luke makes it clear that "they" are the ones that are destroyed.
Let's look at 1 Thes 4.
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV
1 Thes 4:16-17 is at the very least a chronology. It does not state the immediacy of the events, only "This then that."
It would be like describing that "I will go fishing and then have a barbecue with my catch." I might keep the fish in a freezer for years before having the barbecue, but what I said would still be true if that were the case.
Any time after or during the Lord's descent, the dead shall rise. Any time after the dead rise (and during or after the Lord's descent) the living remnant shall be caught up in cloud. This places the "caught up in cloud" at the earliest the descent and at the latest the fading of heaven and earth.
When we interpret through 1 Cor 15:52, we see the changing of the living remnant happens in an instant at the last trump.
We're left with two things to consider: 1) when is the Lord's descent, and; 2) when and how long is the last trump.
Pre trib, from beginning to end, IS made up strickly of the words of man ADDING to WHAT IS WRITTEN.
IF I AM incorrect
TELL ME WHO SPECIFICALLY DID GOD GIVE THE WORDS TO? WHO IN THE BIBLE PUT FORTH THE DOCTRINE?
SINCE GOD DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE WRITE ABOUT IT AND WORSE THAN THAT MADE SURE EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND VERSE NEVER MADE EVEN A MENTION OF IT, OR EVEN SO MUCH A GAVE A HINT TO IT,
IT IS ALL ADDED.
I CAN'T SHOW YOU WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN,
ANY MORE THAN YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME, WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN.
THEREFORE EVERYTHING YOU WRITE ABOUT IT IS 'ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD
IF I AM incorrect
TELL ME WHO SPECIFICALLY DID GOD GIVE THE WORDS TO? WHO IN THE BIBLE PUT FORTH THE DOCTRINE?
SINCE GOD DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE WRITE ABOUT IT AND WORSE THAN THAT MADE SURE EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND VERSE NEVER MADE EVEN A MENTION OF IT, OR EVEN SO MUCH A GAVE A HINT TO IT,
IT IS ALL ADDED.
I CAN'T SHOW YOU WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN,
ANY MORE THAN YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOW ME, WHAT ISN'T WRITTEN.
THEREFORE EVERYTHING YOU WRITE ABOUT IT IS 'ADDING TO THE WORDS OF GOD
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I CAN'T SHOW YOU 'RAPTURE' ANYWHERE BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN THE WORDS OF GOD.
BUT AS FOR THE 'HARVEST' I believe it falls somewhere around
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
AND THE LORDS DAY BEGINS
None of this is exact as I just threw it together to show you APPROXIMATELY where I believe it will go.
TAKEN OFF THE PLANET COMES FROM PRE TRIB AND YOU KEEP TRYING TO SET THAT TO POST TRIB THINKING. WE BELIEVE THEY ARE
TAKEN AWAY FROM BEING FAITHFUL TO GOD, THEIR STATUS AS WISE VIRGIN IS TAKEN AWAY, THEIR ETERNAL LIFE STATUS IS TAKEN/STOLEN BY DECEPTION,
AND ALL THAT CAUSES THEIR PLACE TO BE PREACHERS WITH CHRIST AND TO RULE AND REIGN WITH HIM TO BE TAKEN AWAY. THEY GO NO WHERE. THERE ARE STILL HERE. THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE 'BURNED, PRESSED, EATEN' HOW EVER YOU SEE THEIR DEATH AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST WHOS BRIGHTNESS BRINGS LIGHT UPON ALL THE DECEPTION. THAT IS WHY THEY WANT TO HIDE IN THE MOUNTAINS. THEY WANT TO REMAIN COVERED BY DARKNESS. THEY WANT TO HIDE FROM HIS FACE. BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO TAKE PLACE. THEY HAVE BEEN DECEIVED. WHAT WAS CHRISTS FIRST WARNING WHEN ASKED WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE END TIMES ?
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.
AND YET, THEY ARE TAKEN IN BY THE LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS THAT COME UPON ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH. YOU THINK IT IS BAD TO 'BE PUT TO DEATH/DIE PHYSICALLY AT SATANS HANDS WHEN THAT ISN'T EVEN DEATH AT ALL.
YET YOU SEEM TO HAVE NO FEAR OF WHAT DECEPTION DOES AND IT HAS THE POSSIBILITY TO HAVE YOU SWIMMING IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.
AGAIN THE SPIRITUAL DEATH THAT COMES FROM HIS DECEPTION IS WAY WAY WAY WORSE THAN THE PHYSICAL ONE THAT COMES FROM NOT BEING DECEIVED.
TAKEN AWAY FROM BEING FAITHFUL TO GOD, THEIR STATUS AS WISE VIRGIN IS TAKEN AWAY, THEIR ETERNAL LIFE STATUS IS TAKEN/STOLEN BY DECEPTION,
AND ALL THAT CAUSES THEIR PLACE TO BE PREACHERS WITH CHRIST AND TO RULE AND REIGN WITH HIM TO BE TAKEN AWAY. THEY GO NO WHERE. THERE ARE STILL HERE. THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE 'BURNED, PRESSED, EATEN' HOW EVER YOU SEE THEIR DEATH AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST WHOS BRIGHTNESS BRINGS LIGHT UPON ALL THE DECEPTION. THAT IS WHY THEY WANT TO HIDE IN THE MOUNTAINS. THEY WANT TO REMAIN COVERED BY DARKNESS. THEY WANT TO HIDE FROM HIS FACE. BAD THINGS ARE GOING TO TAKE PLACE. THEY HAVE BEEN DECEIVED. WHAT WAS CHRISTS FIRST WARNING WHEN ASKED WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THE END TIMES ?
DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY ANY MAN.
AND YET, THEY ARE TAKEN IN BY THE LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS THAT COME UPON ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH. YOU THINK IT IS BAD TO 'BE PUT TO DEATH/DIE PHYSICALLY AT SATANS HANDS WHEN THAT ISN'T EVEN DEATH AT ALL.
YET YOU SEEM TO HAVE NO FEAR OF WHAT DECEPTION DOES AND IT HAS THE POSSIBILITY TO HAVE YOU SWIMMING IN THE LAKE OF FIRE.
AGAIN THE SPIRITUAL DEATH THAT COMES FROM HIS DECEPTION IS WAY WAY WAY WORSE THAN THE PHYSICAL ONE THAT COMES FROM NOT BEING DECEIVED.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
SATAN AND FALLEN ANGELS HERE DECEIVING WORLD
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
IMAGE BEING WORSHIPPED
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
CHRIST'S RETURN
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
SICKLE, BURNT TARE, SUPPER FOR BIRDS
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
THE DEAD RISE
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE GATHERED TOGETHER WITH OUR LOVED ONES RETURNING WITH THE LORD FOR THE LORDS DAY TO BEGIN
THAT IS HONESTY. NO MORE 'ACCIDENTAL' FALSE WITNESSES AGAINST ME WITHOUT ME HITTING THAT REPORT BUTTON. THEY ARE JUST TOOO COMMON TO ACCEPT AS ACCIDENTS. Unless, of course, we go for long periods of time without them and then one 'sneaks' in. But unless they are few and far between, yes. I am not playing games. To me, this is life and death and I consider it serious work. I will take all what you throw and turn the other cheek but if it feels deliberate, I will use the options given me to keep this as truthful and honest as possible. So call it what you will, I am just being up front and honest with who I am.
Your enhanced verse as erroneously submitted;
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God
Now lets see the actual word of God minus your perversion of it.;
1 thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Everytime you post i look for what you have reframed or omitted
Now....we ask ourselves what is he trying to make those verses say?
Oh there it is!!!
You split vs 16 so you could throw the tares going into the lof after the millennium.
Yep you just arbitrarily inserted it into the second coming.
WOW
SMH
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God
Now lets see the actual word of God minus your perversion of it.;
1 thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Everytime you post i look for what you have reframed or omitted
Now....we ask ourselves what is he trying to make those verses say?
Oh there it is!!!
You split vs 16 so you could throw the tares going into the lof after the millennium.
Yep you just arbitrarily inserted it into the second coming.
WOW
SMH
This Thread has led to an interesting conclusion.
In the discussion, it came out that in the post trib Doctrine where it says "2 on a roof ,one is taken the other one left" ,that they contend the "one taken" is a wicked person.
Now if we play that out in the post-trib scenario of times ,where Jesus is coming on white horses, they think they are going to see half the world's population "taken".
I assume postribers think these supposedly Wicked people are taken to Armageddon ,or someplace where they're going to be destroyed.
And so that leaves the other half left behind, as , supposedly righteous.
So in their certain way of thinking, they have half the population of Earth as righteous, and half the population of Earth as Wicked.
Also in the postriber Doctrine we have the Rapture supposedly at that same time (at the white horses coming).
Jesus said to watch and be ready.
I have to assume that postribers are saying that watching and waiting would be for the rapture.
I'm just trying to understand the thinking and take their doctrine model ,and attempt to shoe horn it in to what we see written.
So what came out in the discussion was that in the post trib Doctrine, on the second coming ,we have half the population, of "Wicked", on a roof ,at a job, in a bed ,in a field, and this "one half" of the earth population is taken, (I suppose by Jesus to some area of Destruction).
Now we also know in the post-trib rapture doctrine that there is of course a Rapture postrib
.... So, now that the wicked are taken and destroyed the "other one" sleeping in a bed and the "other one" in a field ,and the "other one " on a roof ,they would be raptured at the same time the wicked are taken.
All earths population gets removed in the postrib model.
What a bogus doctrine.
That postrib man made beast took them into the desert and now i killed it.
Lol
This thread has really destroyed any hope of a post-trib rapture
In the discussion, it came out that in the post trib Doctrine where it says "2 on a roof ,one is taken the other one left" ,that they contend the "one taken" is a wicked person.
Now if we play that out in the post-trib scenario of times ,where Jesus is coming on white horses, they think they are going to see half the world's population "taken".
I assume postribers think these supposedly Wicked people are taken to Armageddon ,or someplace where they're going to be destroyed.
And so that leaves the other half left behind, as , supposedly righteous.
So in their certain way of thinking, they have half the population of Earth as righteous, and half the population of Earth as Wicked.
Also in the postriber Doctrine we have the Rapture supposedly at that same time (at the white horses coming).
Jesus said to watch and be ready.
I have to assume that postribers are saying that watching and waiting would be for the rapture.
I'm just trying to understand the thinking and take their doctrine model ,and attempt to shoe horn it in to what we see written.
So what came out in the discussion was that in the post trib Doctrine, on the second coming ,we have half the population, of "Wicked", on a roof ,at a job, in a bed ,in a field, and this "one half" of the earth population is taken, (I suppose by Jesus to some area of Destruction).
Now we also know in the post-trib rapture doctrine that there is of course a Rapture postrib
.... So, now that the wicked are taken and destroyed the "other one" sleeping in a bed and the "other one" in a field ,and the "other one " on a roof ,they would be raptured at the same time the wicked are taken.
All earths population gets removed in the postrib model.
What a bogus doctrine.
That postrib man made beast took them into the desert and now i killed it.
Lol
This thread has really destroyed any hope of a post-trib rapture
I don't understand the question. Who is leaving? No one is leaving. Where would they be going? Why? Every one is coming here.
What harvest into the 'air'? The TARES aren't going UP they are going DOWN.
I have no idea what you are saying or not saying. I have no idea what you mean. Split verse 16? ONLY TO FIT it with the other verses that same the same thing. Didn't you notice THE CONTEXT or are you just looking at numbers? What did 'splitting the verse do to it? How was it changed? Can you take that out of the criticism form and put it into an explanation, like you were trying to teach it to someone? I don't arbitrarily insert anything into the 2nd coming I PUT EVERYTHING THERE ALWAYS BECAUSE I DON'T BELIEVE IN ANOTHER ONE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THAT COMES AS SUCH A SHOCK TO YOU EVERY TIME. Show me how YOUR BELIEFS 'fit' with Scripture, JUST EXPLAIN YOUR SIDE OF THINGS THAT WAY FOR A CHANGE. Telling me what you think doesn't help me
see it. You need to SHOW why it works and SHOW why this way doesn't.
That is correct. YOU ASSUME.
THIS POST TRIB believer DOESN'T BELIEVE THEY ARE TAKEN ANY WHERE. When Christ returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the wicked are DESTROYED. NO RIDES anywhere.
AND it is like the 'whole world' that dies, and a remnant that remains. NOT BECAUSE ALL THE CHRISTIANS ARE MURDERED but because all the Christians are deceived.
THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE DECEIVED. YES, IT SOUNDS LIKE 50 50 but we know that is just a description of the EVENTS TAKING PLACE IN THAT ONE PLACE. WHERE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE FLEEING from when they see WHAT? It is area specific for that part but you are trying to equate it to the whole world.
THIS POST TRIB believer DOESN'T BELIEVE THEY ARE TAKEN ANY WHERE. When Christ returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the wicked are DESTROYED. NO RIDES anywhere.
AND it is like the 'whole world' that dies, and a remnant that remains. NOT BECAUSE ALL THE CHRISTIANS ARE MURDERED but because all the Christians are deceived.
THE WHOLE WORLD WILL BE DECEIVED. YES, IT SOUNDS LIKE 50 50 but we know that is just a description of the EVENTS TAKING PLACE IN THAT ONE PLACE. WHERE ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE FLEEING from when they see WHAT? It is area specific for that part but you are trying to equate it to the whole world.