An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[DanielLL]

We're the wedding guests

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is married to Him.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 

[Jocund]

Prophecy is not symbolic.

Joseph interpretting dreams disproves the premise that prophecy can't be symbolic (see Gen 39 & 40).

 

[DavidTree]

Prophecy is not symbolic

He set the precedent by literally fulfilling All prophesied concerning him in his first advent.

Are you trying to say that the symbolism in Revelation is not symbolism by the Prophetic word of Christ?

 

[DavidTree]

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is married to Him.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

You ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit as Promised by the LORD in Acts ch1 is the Marriage Certificate and when HE accepts you the Holy Spirit makes you His Bride = with Wedding GIFTS.

 

[kleronomos]

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," - Rev 1:10 KJV

John was in the future, in spirit, talking with other individuals. What else can "in the spirit" mean?

And what about Samuel in the OT? Was that a spirit body pre-glorification? Or was that a glorified spirit body?

With John's revelation, one could expect that his physical (dead) remains existed at the same timeframe that he was bearing witness to. Logically, it would follow that it would have been possible for him to see himself (his future glorified-body self) after the resurrection.

Not many people take the time to think about the fact that Revelation involves time travel and differs from typical prophesies by the fact that John actually interacts with things and has an "in spirit" body capable of kneeling or bowing to an angel.

If this is what that post made you think, then really no more to say than OK is there? Do you really care about my personal opinions on these questions you asked, as there are no Scriptures to put forth to prove them? I could give my opinions but I don't think they have any meaning as far as Gods Truth is concerned here.

 

[Jocund]

Many nations came from abraha, But only one nation came with the promise and christ came from that nation. That nation was Isreal.

How do you know that the promise wasn't talking about Christ's nation rather than a nation before Christ? Nothing in that says the nation was Israel.

Jocund said: "You need the NT to understand the OT. You can't find a true understanding without doing so."

So do you believe everyone who was born of Abraham jacob and Isaac is saved?

Only those in Christ are saved.

because that is who the promise of land was given to.

That's not what Gal 3 says.

Why do you not lie in peace in the land of canaan if the promise was to you?

I have no idea what you mean by this.

I asked you the question on whether 100% of the seed needs to be in the land in order to fulfil the land promise? (The dead included). If your answer is "no" then it follows that a Christian ownership of the land fulfils that promise even if you think the seed is more than Christ (which it isn't).

 

[DavidTree]

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,


OK. THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP ARE COMING WITH HIM SO THEY HAVE ALREADY RISEN, HAVEN'T THEY? THOSE WERE THE COMFORTING WORDS THAT MAKE US DIFFERENT THAN THE HEATHEN, RIGHT? WE DON'T DIE LIKE THE HEATHEN WE CONTINUE ON LIVING BECAUSE WE HAVE RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. THE BLOOD OF CHRIST RENDERS US WITHOUT SIN. NO SIN NO GRAVE CAN HOLD US, SO WE RISE. AND WITH WHAT BODY DO WE RISE? WE HAVE TWO. WE ARE RAISED IN GLORY.


SO WHO ARE THESE 'DEAD'?
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.


After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.



Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

My Dad died 10 years ago, and HE APPEARED TO HIM.

My husband died 4 years ago and HE APPEARED TO HIM.

He has 'appeared' the second time UNTO EACH OF THEM.

NOWHERE does it say THAT IT IS TO BE AT THE SAME TIME, ON A LAST DAY


1 John ch2-ch3 , 1 Cor ch15 , Rev ch20


HERE? NO 'LAST DAY' NO GROUP EVENT, not even talking about the 'last day' in any respect.
John 2:25 And this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, WHEN He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


HERE? AGAIN, NO TIME. NOT EVEN SPEAKING OF THE LAST DAY OR HIS RETURN
John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.


BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS WE ARE RAISED UP IN A GLORIFIED BODY, IF INDEED WE BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

ALL these Scripture declare ONE SINGLE COMING/APPEARING = His Second Coming

His Second APPEARING is NOT in spirit or in a vision or dream = It is HIS Literal Appearing as it was in His First Coming except now HE returns in HIS Glorified Body.

1 Thess 4:13-18 = He brings the Saints with HIM = Their SPIRITS/SOULS as their bodies are still in the grave.

That is why when HE Comes the Resurrection takes place at His Appearing = never Before.
The RESURRECTION of HIS Saints takes place at HIS COMING and with the TRUMPET of GOD = 1 Thess 4:16 & 1 Cor ch15 & Matt ch24

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

Not sure where you want to go with this but the whole point is that it is impossible for both sides of a debate/etc to be stating what is "plainy stated in Scripture" when each side is diametrically opposed

So in disregard to all else other than the chronology issue of an agreed truth based on Scripture and an irrefutable truth that cannot be changed and stands for all time. Being, that the first resurrection precedes the thousand year Kingdom of Christ - or to use my own words as I stated them, "So then, the difficulty, seeing as your answer is already clear - is how can there be a rapture and a meeting the King that precedes the trumpet sound (the last trumpet) that heralds His entry into the seat of His government and His 1000 year Kingdom."

That statement of mine and your statement to upholding Revelation 20:5 are at odds. Yet we are agreed on the claim itself. That is a peculiar fact. So, where am I going then?

To make it easy I'll cite your last post here:

FreeGrace2 said:
What I've posted and shared comes straight from Scripture. If you have a problem with my posts, it's really with Scripture.

Or prove that my views are not found in Scripture.

You really think you are? So far, I haven't seen anything from you that qualifies as a refutation.

In fact, it seems you haven't yet started. Can you cut to the chase, or would you rather just play cricket?

And you are right - I haven't yet started to refute your position because I wanted to uphold your chief premise which is cited to be found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. and Revelation 1:7 - to cite two examples of the suddenness and certainty that Christ will return and there will be the first resurrection and the rapture of the saints that are alive at His coming. These being often expressed as proved in Matthew 24:31.

The annoying part [I feel sure of it] is that I don't intend to refute your position in the way you appear to require. So here is the annoyance then:

Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, “Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.” But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.” And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el. He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. The Lord will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father’s house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah—the king of Assyria.” In that day the Lord will whistle for the fly which is at the sources of the streams of Egypt, and for the bee which is in the land of Assyria. And they will all come and settle in the steep ravines, and in the clefts of the rocks, and on all the thornbushes, and on all the pastures. In that day the Lord will shave with a razor which is hired beyond the River—with the king of Assyria—the head and the hair of the feet, and it will sweep away the beard also. In that day a man will keep alive a young cow and two sheep; and because of the abundance of milk which they give, he will eat curds; for every one that is left in the land will eat curds and honey. In that day every place where there used to be a thousand vines, worth a thousand shekels of silver, will become briers and thorns. With bow and arrows men will come there, for all the land will be briers and thorns; and as for all the hills which used to be hoed with a hoe, you will not come there for fear of briers and thorns; but they will become a place where cattle are let loose and where sheep tread. Isaiah 7:10-25

I asked about chronology for a reason - not to establish just one fact of Matthew 24 which very clearly speaks about the end of the age.

So, AS we are all very clear about the prophecy of Isaiah to King Ahaz of Judah - because we cite it as the prophecy of the birth of Emmanuel (God is with us) - and yet this prophetic word of Isaiah is also to be fulfilled in the time of Ahaz as a promise of God's support regarding the threat from King Rezin of Syria and King Pekah of Israel. One prophetic word divided into two prophetic events in time and place. Only God can do that - and that is precisely how the book of Revelation is given in the Alpha and Omega designation - in the opening words spoken by John Revelation 1:4, in the words of Christ Revelation 1:8 and by angels Revelation 4:8.

Unless we lay hold of that character then it seems unlikely to myself that neither will we be able to lay hold of plain truth given to us in time and space. What then the purpose of being plain, brother to those brethren who have reduced prophecy to mere symbolism?

 

[DavidTree]

Joseph interpretting dreams disproves the premise that prophecy can't be symbolic (see Gen 39 & 40).

Daniel's Vison and Dreams are Prophecy in Symbolic Narrative

Jacobs Dream was also in Symbolic narrative/form.

 

[Jocund]

If this is what that post made you think, then really no more to say than OK is there? Do you really care about my personal opinions on these questions you asked, as there are no Scriptures to put forth to prove them? I could give my opinions but I don't think they have any meaning as far as Gods Truth is concerned here.

You started with the opinion that John was not there in a spirit body. I was curious how that works in your interpretation. Scripture points to John being in the future in a spirit body. Am I mistaken?

If John was there only in spirit (with some kind of spirit body) it would follow that a literal 144,000 could also be some kind of time travellers similar to John. That would mean that these individuals weren't necessarily dead or resurrected (unless some other verse said so). There are implications to that.

I am basically just presenting this as a possible interpretation rather than a necessary case. Leaving it at "OK" is itself satisfactory.

 

[Jocund]

Daniel's Vison and Dreams are Prophecy in Symbolic Narrative

Jacobs Dream was also in Symbolic narrative/form.

Completely agree and since parts of the Revelation imagery comes from books like Daniel it would follow that Revelation also contains prophesy in symbolic narrative.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Joseph interpretting dreams disproves the premise that prophecy can't be symbolic (see Gen 39 & 40).

If prophecy is symbolic it has no purpose

Because it can not be seen by those who are alive,,

Jospeh interpreted internal events.. What he prophesied has and is occuring.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are you trying to say that the symbolism in Revelation is not symbolism by the Prophetic word of Christ?

When he uses symbolism to re[resent literal events, such as beasts, it is still literal events taking place

144000 people from 12 tribe's of Israel to represent the church which is one being symbolic is meaningless..

Jh is prophesying what he saw 144000 people from the lost nation of israel who repent and come to christ, and are sealed.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

How do you know that the promise wasn't talking about Christ's nation rather than a nation before Christ? Nothing in that says the nation was Israel.

how do I n=know?

becausen when moses led the people out of Israel. He told them they were goin got the and God promised them

When they got there, They were told this is what God promised them

When they got their and were given the law. God told them what would happen if they obeyed and what would happen if they dispbeyed

because prophecy states they will sin and be punished by the destruction of their land, and scattered all over the earth.

All these events took place

Prophecy also states they will repent, and when they do, God will remember the land and remember his promise (this is long after the cross) and when that happens, he will restore them to the land e promised them.

Only those in Christ are saved.

This is not about salvation, This promise has nothing to do with salvation, Your name ing the same mistake th e Jews in Christs day did. You misunderstand the promise. The promise was land, not salvation.

That's not what Gal 3 says.



I have no idea what you mean by this.

I asked you the question on whether 100% of the seed needs to be in the land in order to fulfil the land promise? (The dead included). If your answer is "no" then it follows that a Christian ownership of the land fulfils that promise even if you think the seed is more than Christ (which it isn't).

If christians on the land, then why is the land been ruled by Rome, Islam and the enemies of God for the last 2000 years??

I beg of you to look at what your saying, and listen to what people are telling you. What you are saying makes God into a liar, and makes absolutely no sense

 

[Rhomphaeam]

And just because it seems desirable to post pre tribulation literature in an academic reference source meaning then I post this link.

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1106&context=pretrib_arch

From www.pre-trib.com

And just to say it - I am not a pre tribulation believer.

 

[Jocund]

If prophecy is symbolic it has no purpose

Because it can not be seen by those who are alive,,

Jospeh interpreted internal events.. What he prophesied has and is occuring.

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." - Mat 13:10-13 KJV

 

[DavidTree]

When he uses symbolism to re[resent literal events, such as beasts, it is still literal events taking place

144000 people from 12 tribe's of Israel to represent the church which is one being symbolic is meaningless..

Jh is prophesying what he saw 144000 people from the lost nation of israel who repent and come to christ, and are sealed.

YES, the symbolism that Christ speaks in His Revelation pertain to actual LITERAL events/peoples/nations/angels.

I find that based on the Gospel of Christ, Genesis and the Holy Spirit inspired words of the Apostles that the 144K is a symbolic number.

The Born Again Spirit Glorified Nation of ISRAEL is the Body of Christ as the LORD and His Holy Apostles declare to us today.

The earthly nation of Israel will be revived ONLY at His Second Coming and not before = Matt ch23 & Zechariah ch14

 

[DavidTree]

And just because it seems desirable to post pre tribulation literature in an academic reference source meaning then I post this link.

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1106&context=pretrib_arch

From www.pre-trib.com

And just to say it - I am not a pre tribulation believer.

The Safest Path is that set forth by the LORD = Deut 4:1-2 , Prov 30:5-6 , Rev 22:18

 

[Rhomphaeam]

The Safest Path is that set forth by the LORD = Deut 4:1-2 , Prov 30:5-6 , Rev 22:18

What have I to do with you?

 

[DavidTree]

What have I to do with you?

Are you saved and Born-Again by the Spirit? or are you a pretender?