How Does a Broken Church Reach a Lost World?

[kaylagrl]

It's an honest question. If we can't even tolerate each other, if we tear each other down INSIDE the camp, how do we ever reach a lost world?!

Several years ago I started a thread against OSAS. I simply disagree with it and there was one lady here that was so dogmatic that I started a thread. In the end I believe I offended someone who I thought a lot of who is since gone. He was always so patient in his response to me and I felt bad that I had started that thread. I haven't done so since. It didn't do anything but stir up hurt and anger, it certainly did nothing for the kingdom.

I am Pentecostal, AOG, not a fly by night cult. That being said I fellowship with all denominations, have friends from all of them. I traveled in hundreds of churches over the years, even Catholics, and each place we went they were so gracious to us. I don't hold with Catholic beliefs, or many of them, but they still allowed us to preach the Gospel in some of their churches.

We preached and sang one night in a Pentecostal church. At the end of the service two nuns came up to my sister and I and we had a wonderful talk about missions and serving the Lord. Another time a friend of the family was visiting us but she had brought friends. We were wanting to attend a service since it was Sunday. One of the ladies was Catholic, the rest of us evangelical. But there is a huge cathedral just outside Cinci so we all went there. It was a 911 memorial service, in fact it may have been the first just after it happened. The people at the door didn't ask if we were all Catholic, they were friendly and gracious. It was a beautiful service with the pipe organ and it houses the largest stained glass window in America. Another time we sang at a Methodist church that was spirit filled and they spoke in tongues!! Had a wonderful service.

I saw all that to say this. I come here to CC and I see nothing but bashing each others beliefs. Not discussion. I find it so disheartening. If we cannot even tolerate each other, how do we reach a sinner? I find so many rigid, dogmatic, hateful threads here lately and I wonder what good it does? Honestly. I don't see that in my every day experience, do you?! We use to have those churches that had so many man made rules and sometimes they open their door a crack and let us in to minister. We use to call them the "Us Four and No More" churches. Usually very few people attending because no one could live up to their dogmatic beliefs and false standards. I worry that some of the people at CC go out and try to reach the world with this attitude. I'm not gunning at any one person, I'm talking about an attitude I see here, and it's really strong. I wonder if these people are just home bound and just isolate themselves more and more. I don't get it. I don't see how a broken, bickering, backstabbing church can reach anyone. Why would anyone want to be part of that? It's just a question. Maybe someone can clear it up for me.

 

[arthurfleminger]

You are correct in a lot of what you post. However, remember this, with Jesus and His Church all things are possible. Think back to the early Church when Jesus sent out a handful of Apostles/Disciples to Baptize and Evangelize the world. He sent these few souls out into a world of wolves. And this handful of disciples were successful in spreading the Good News, despite not having the internet, modern forms of transportation, nor telephones. Maybe we ought to look at what the early Christian Church did and copy their actions.

 

[arthurfleminger]

You are correct in a lot of what you post. However, remember this, with Jesus and His Church all things are possible. Think back to the early Church when Jesus sent out a handful of Apostles/Disciples to Baptize and Evangelize the world. He sent these few souls out into a world of wolves. And this handful of disciples were successful in spreading the Good News, despite not having the internet, modern forms of transportation, nor telephones. Maybe we ought to look at what the early Christian Church did and copy their actions.

After all, there are millions of serious Christians in the world today and with all the latest technology. But we have to take the initiative instead of sitting on our rumps.

 

[DavidTree]

It's an honest question. If we can't even tolerate each other, if we tear each other down INSIDE the camp, how do we ever reach a lost world?!

Several years ago I started a thread against OSAS. I simply disagree with it and there was one lady here that was so dogmatic that I started a thread. In the end I believe I offended someone who I thought a lot of who is since gone. He was always so patient in his response to me and I felt bad that I had started that thread. I haven't done so since. It didn't do anything but stir up hurt and anger, it certainly did nothing for the kingdom.

I am Pentecostal, AOG, not a fly by night cult. That being said I fellowship with all denominations, have friends from all of them. I traveled in hundreds of churches over the years, even Catholics, and each place we went they were so gracious to us. I don't hold with Catholic beliefs, or many of them, but they still allowed us to preach the Gospel in some of their churches.

We preached and sang one night in a Pentecostal church. At the end of the service two nuns came up to my sister and I and we had a wonderful talk about missions and serving the Lord. Another time a friend of the family was visiting us but she had brought friends. We were wanting to attend a service since it was Sunday. One of the ladies was Catholic, the rest of us evangelical. But there is a huge cathedral just outside Cinci so we all went there. It was a 911 memorial service, in fact it may have been the first just after it happened. The people at the door didn't ask if we were all Catholic, they were friendly and gracious. It was a beautiful service with the pipe organ and it houses the largest stained glass window in America. Another time we sang at a Methodist church that was spirit filled and they spoke in tongues!! Had a wonderful service.

I saw all that to say this. I come here to CC and I see nothing but bashing each others beliefs. Not discussion. I find it so disheartening. If we cannot even tolerate each other, how do we reach a sinner? I find so many rigid, dogmatic, hateful threads here lately and I wonder what good it does? Honestly. I don't see that in my every day experience, do you?! We use to have those churches that had so many man made rules and sometimes they open their door a crack and let us in to minister. We use to call them the "Us Four and No More" churches. Usually very few people attending because no one could live up to their dogmatic beliefs and false standards. I worry that some of the people at CC go out and try to reach the world with this attitude. I'm not gunning at any one person, I'm talking about an attitude I see here, and it's really strong. I wonder if these people are just home bound and just isolate themselves more and more. I don't get it. I don't see how a broken, bickering, backstabbing church can reach anyone. Why would anyone want to be part of that? It's just a question. Maybe someone can clear it up for me.

Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 1 Cor 13:12


The main stumbling block to online communication is that it is purely digital and missing the essential social connection of 'face to face'.

We cannot fully and properly express the full communication process on here as it lacks the human element that God designed in and thru us. Thus satan's agenda with the lockdown's, mandatory wearing of masks and social distancing.

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. - Hebrews 10:25

When all else fails - Love never fails

 

[edington749]

It's easy to be religious but hard to be real. I get what you are saying. Sometimes the biggest adversary we have is our brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

After all, there are millions of serious Christians in the world today and with all the latest technology. But we have to take the initiative instead of sitting on our rumps.

Lift me up in prayer on that note - if you would - thank you

 

[arthurfleminger]

Look to what we can do, as individual Christians both within our Church and outside our Church. What can we do to evangelize, like Peter, Paul, the Apostles/Disciples of the early Church? Do we minister to others, as the early Church did: poor/prisoners/aged/hungry/sick etc.................. These are methods/means in which the early Disciples helped to spread the Good News of the Gospel.

 

[Live4Him2]

If you ask me, then there is a very fine line between "CONTENDING for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude vs. 3) and being CONTENTIOUS:

"Only by pride comes contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. " (Proverbs 13:10)

On the one hand, "contending" finds its roots in HUMILITY.

In other words, if we truly humble ourselves before the Lord, then he'll not only teach us what the faith actually is which was once delivered unto the saints, but we'll also share it humbly (and civilly) with others while knowing full well that we freely received it from God:

"For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it?" (I Corinthians 4:7)

I don't personally see anything wrong with being "dogmatic", but only if our dogma truly aligns itself with this faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Even then, however, there is a proper way to share such dogma.

On the other hand, it is ONLY BY PRIDE that contention comes, and there's more than enough contention on this forum (and elsewhere) to fill all of the oceans of this world.

At my end, I try to put forth the scriptures in such a way that is easy to understand.

Whatever people do with the same is entirely up to them.

As Christians, we can only "plant" and water", and God alone can "give the increase":

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that plants anything, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. " (I Corinthians 3:5-8)

Whenever someone cannot/will not let a conversation go after a while, you can know of a certainty that they're trying to force an increase which only God can give, and you can equally be certain that PRIDE is involved.

Break up the fallow ground whenever possible (Jeremiah 4:3).

Plant some seed.

Water it if the opportunity arises.

But let God strive with the individual (s) in order to potentially give the increase.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sadly, It is the mindset of many churches. They feel like they are right and everyone else is wrong. and they feel they have to correct everyone else.. And doing so is their duty.

To me it is satan getting his way.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Look to what we can do, as individual Christians both within our Church and outside our Church. What can we do to evangelize, like Peter, Paul, the Apostles/Disciples of the early Church? Do we minister to others, as the early Church did: poor/prisoners/aged/hungry/sick etc.................. These are methods/means in which the early Disciples helped to spread the Good News of the Gospel.

In today's age, many of us are just content to be computer jockeys and ignore face to face association with people, especially people in need. When's the last time you visited or spoke with a person in a nursing home, a homeless person, a prisoner, a sick person.....etc............ Sitting behind your PC/cellphone does little in the way of evangelizing. Face to face contact is needed. That's how the early Church did it.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Sadly, It is the mindset of many churches. They feel like they are right and everyone else is wrong. and they feel they have to correct everyone else.. And doing so is their duty.

To me it is satan getting his way.

The fracturing of Christians is definitely a problem. Jesus foresaw this problem the night before He died. Jesus, Himself, prayed to the Father for Christian unity, "Let them be one."

Yes, we do have difference in our Christian beliefs with each other. But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us.

So, whether or not your Christian brother/sister agrees completely with, respect all Christians.

 

[Lanolin]

Not sure why someone starts a thread AGAINST something but bear in mind people have different views, there were four gospels and they all had different experiences of the same Jesus.

I dont come on Bible discussion Forum that often but when I do its always to discuss, never to argue. Not really sure why ppl want to be argumentative. Try and respect other peoples views that may differ from yours, we are not clones of each other.

Shalom

 

[Snacks]

The internet’s cloak of anonymity empowers some people who are otherwise much more amicable in person. With that power they cause division within the Body of Christ rather than living and let live.

On another note, folks on this site focus on negativity rather than God’s grace. Constantly focusing on negativity has adverse reactions.

 

[Magenta]

Individuals within the church may be broken, but the Body of Christ is not broken.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not sure why someone starts a thread AGAINST something but bear in mind people have different views, there were four gospels and they all had different experiences of the same Jesus.

I dont come on Bible discussion Forum that often but when I do its always to discuss, never to argue. Not really sure why ppl want to be argumentative. Try and respect other peoples views that may differ from yours, we are not clones of each other.

Shalom

The op is not about differences. She knows there are differences.

It is about the way we treat each other when people do not agree with us

 

[edington749]

The internet’s cloak of anonymity empowers some people who are otherwise much more amicable in person. With that power they cause division within the Body of Christ rather than living and let live.

On another note, folks on this site focus on negativity rather than God’s grace. Constantly focusing on negativity has adverse reactions.

I think also it can be hard to gauge a person's response because we can't see their emotions behind the words

 

[arthurfleminger]

The internet’s cloak of anonymity empowers some people who are otherwise much more amicable in person. With that power they cause division within the Body of Christ rather than living and let live.

On another note, folks on this site focus on negativity rather than God’s grace. Constantly focusing on negativity has adverse reactions.

You are correct. And we must remember that the internet/cellphones are great tools for communication. But many are starting to mistake them for the real world and not the fantasy world that they are. Get out into the real world of real physical people, ones that you can see and talk to. Ones you can share your Christian light with. Don't hide your Christian light under the bed or in the internet. Take your light out into the real world with real sons and daughters of God, much more effective in spreading the Gospel.

 

[Live4Him2]

You are correct in a lot of what you post. However, remember this, with Jesus and His Church all things are possible. Think back to the early Church when Jesus sent out a handful of Apostles/Disciples to Baptize and Evangelize the world. He sent these few souls out into a world of wolves. And this handful of disciples were successful in spreading the Good News, despite not having the internet, modern forms of transportation, nor telephones. Maybe we ought to look at what the early Christian Church did and copy their actions.

Well, seeing how you just mentioned this, and seeing how I was actually talking to another forum member here on the phone last night for 3 hours about some of these things, I'll ask the following question:

How many of the forum members here actually evangelize people outside of online forums like this while seeking to make disciples for the Lord?

I'd guess that it's not a very high percentage.

Whatever the case may be, this thread reminds me of this:

Ephesians chapter 4

[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Any gifts that we truly have are to be used for the following purposes:

1. The perfecting of the saints (vs. 12).
2. The work of the ministry (vs. 12).
3. The edifying or building up of the body of Christ (vs. 12).
4. To bring us into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

On this point of "unity", there are definitely going to be times when we need to address the things which divide us, but we need to be able to address them civilly.

5. To bring others (and ourselves, of course) unto a perfect man, or unto maturity in Christ, or unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (vs. 13).
6. To keep others (and, again, ourselves) from being children who are tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (vs. 14).

Let's be real, folks.

We're engaged in a spiritual war for our souls, and our adversary, the devil, has planted many tares among the wheat, and those tares include false teachers, false apostles, wolves in sheep's clothing, false brethren, etc., etc., etc, even as the Bible warns us.

With such being the case, there are definitely also going to be times when we need to call out certain people and their doctrines, even as Christ and the apostles did themselves, in order to protect the flock.

7. To speak the truth IN LOVE (vs. 15).

On this point, love is NOT always some ooey-gooey thing.

No, God is love, and Jesus is "Emmanuel" or "God with us", and he pretty regularly laid the axe at the root or went directly at the sinful things within peoples' hearts IN ORDER THAT THEY MIGHT REPENT AND BE SAVED.

In other words, he wasn't just looking to put others down or to make himself look better than them in other peoples eyes.

Here is a very real part of "love":

"Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:5-6)

If we truly love others, then it's not always going to be some "secret" thing. No, instead, it's sometimes going to need to be manifested in the form of "open rebuke". Again, if we're truly someone's "friend", then there are inevitably going to be times when we need to "faithfully wound" them for their own potential benefit. Of course, someone with the wrong heartset or mindset could easily grab hold of something like this while using it as a sort of Carte Blanche to just tell off others, but, that possibility aside, "open rebuke" and "faithfully wounding" are still parts of true "love" and genuine "friendship".

8. That we may truly be one body, whose head is Christ, and that every joint in this body might contribute something vital to the body's growth or vital to the body's edifying or building up of itself in love (vss. 15-16).

I would heartily suggest that we all examine ourselves and our motives in light of such things as these and make any necessary adjustments in our own hearts/minds/lives before attempting to correct anybody else.

 

[DavidTree]

I think also it can be hard to gauge a person's response because we can't see their emotions behind the words

There can be and are missing elements in the communication process when we post on here.

I am relatively new (6 months +/-) to internet chat as this is my very first time at it = i have made mistakes for sure.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Well, seeing how you just mentioned this, and seeing how I was actually talking to another forum member here on the phone last night for 3 hours about some of these things, I'll ask the following question:

How many of the forum members here actually evangelize people outside of online forums like this while seeking to make disciples for the Lord?

I'd guess that it's not a very high percentage.

Whatever the case may be, this thread reminds me of this:

Ephesians chapter 4

[7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Any gifts that we truly have are to be used for the following purposes:

1. The perfecting of the saints (vs. 12).
2. The work of the ministry (vs. 12).
3. The edifying or building up of the body of Christ (vs. 12).
4. To bring us into the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

On this point of "unity", there are definitely going to be times when we need to address the things which divide us, but we need to be able to address them civilly.

5. To bring others (and ourselves, of course) unto a perfect man, or unto maturity in Christ, or unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (vs. 13).
6. To keep others (and, again, ourselves) from being children who are tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (vs. 14).

Let's be real, folks.

We're engaged in a spiritual war for our souls, and our adversary, the devil, has planted many tares among the wheat, and those tares include false teachers, false apostles, wolves in sheep's clothing, false brethren, etc., etc., etc, even as the Bible warns us.

With such being the case, there are definitely also going to be times when we need to call out certain people and their doctrines, even as Christ and the apostles did themselves, in order to protect the flock.

7. To speak the truth IN LOVE (vs. 15).

On this point, love is NOT always some ooey-gooey thing.

No, God is love, and Jesus is "Emmanuel" or "God with us", and he pretty regularly laid the axe at the root or went directly at the sinful things within peoples' hearts IN ORDER THAT THEY MIGHT REPENT AND BE SAVED.

In other words, he wasn't just looking to put others down or to make himself look better than them in other peoples eyes.

Here is a very real part of "love":

"Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:5-6)

If we truly love others, then it's not always going to be some "secret" thing. No, instead, it's sometimes going to need to be manifested in the form of "open rebuke". Again, if we're truly someone's "friend", then there are inevitably going to be times when we need to "faithfully wound" them for their own potential benefit. Of course, someone with the wrong heartset or mindset could easily grab hold of something like this while using it as a sort of Carte Blanche to just tell off others, but, that possibility aside, "open rebuke" and "faithfully wounding" are still parts of true "love" and genuine "friendship".

8. That we may truly be one body, whose head is Christ, and that every joint in this body might contribute something vital to the body's growth or vital to the body's edifying or building up of itself in love (vss. 15-16).

I would heartily suggest that we all examine ourselves and our motives in light of such things as these and make any necessary adjustments in our own hearts/minds/lives before attempting to correct anybody else.

Personally, I have used my talents for many years in personally sharing the faith and evangelizing others. But I'm not going to share my efforts here as it would appear that I'm boasting. If I boast here, I receive my reward from you, someone I don't even know. If I don't boast, then I'll receive a promised reward from God. But you are probably correct that many just give lip service on the internet, but I don't judge anyone cause I don't know for sure.