Two Resurrections, Two Deaths, Three Lives.
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Forgive me to chime in, I like your style, but I have to disagree with you on this one. "Sleep" is a bodily function and a euphemism for dead believers in the Bible, it can't be applied on souls. With due respect, "soul sleep" is an oxymoron. You know that even in our sleep, soul is highly active in the REM phase (rapid eye movement), that's when you're dreaming. It's probably more active than you're awake.
Thank you
Yes, a euphemism, not denoting wakeful awareness. In fact, denoting unconsciousness.Yes, Jesus "re-phrased" the figure of speech to literal plain speech. iow, to say "he sleeps" meant "he died". That's ALL. There is NOTHING about soul sleep.
Some people seem to have too much time on their hands, so they come up with these unbiblical ideas about the soul sleeping.
What we absolutely DO KNOW is that Lazarus had died physically. That was the ONLY point. And that is what Jesus finally cleared up.
How come you seem to miss the obvious here? All of them were talking about his death.
When a person died, there is a funeral and then a burial. What does all that mean to you?
Do you try, or have you EVER heard anyone address which part of him that died???
James made physical death very clear in 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
See? Real simple. Physical death means the soul has left the body. So the body is put into the grave. No more physical life.
That is what WE absolutely do know. Yet, Jesus and the disciples where in a whole other town when Jesus initially informed them that he is 'asleep.'
And other people can't be bothered to rethink their own assumptions.
Where did I so much as imply anywhere that Lazarus soul died?
This is probably why David pleaded that the LORD take not His Spirit from him, seeing that that this results in eternal death. Neither body nor soul can be sustained with it.
Where does scripture say that man has an eternal soul. The last time I looked, a mortal, who dies, is nothing near immortal who cannot die. If Adam became a living soul, why wouldn't it follow that its entirely possible that he become a dead soul, without God's life sustaining spirit.
FreeGrace2 said:
What we absolutely DO KNOW is that Lazarus had died physically. That was the ONLY point. And that is what Jesus finally cleared up.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you try, or have you EVER heard anyone address which part of him that died???
" At any rate, it's not clearly written whether Jesus was speaking of his soul, body, or all of him. If Jesus was speaking of just his body, it was seem to me to be uncharacteristically (suffering for my want of vocabulary) smart Alec since that was obvious to all considering the conjecture, "If you'd have been here, he wouldn't have died."
This sure sounds as though you believe that we can refer to EITHER body or soul when speaking of someone's death.
That's why I asked my questions
FreeGrace2 said:
James made physical death very clear in 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
See? Real simple. Physical death means the soul has left the body. So the body is put into the grave. No more physical life.
In the OT, the Spirit could be removed for cause, but that didn't result in eternal death. Do you believe that a believer can lose eternal life and end up in eternal death?
"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
The body returns to dust, and the spirit/soul returns to God, who created it.
So, the obvious question would be: What does God do with a soul that has returned to Him? We know the answer by the FACT that the Bible speaks of souls IN heaven in Rev 6 and all the souls who accompany Jesus back to earth at the Second Advent, etc, etc.
Jesus made that clear when He gave the account of Lazarus and a rich man, both of who died and went to Hades, one to Paradise and the other to a place of torments, where they could see each other and the rich man spoke with Abraham and Abe responded to him.
I refuse to presume or assume anything. I believe what the Bible says.
What we absolutely DO KNOW is that Lazarus had died physically. That was the ONLY point. And that is what Jesus finally cleared up.
Are you disagreeing with what I said above??
Please clarify what you think I am assuming?
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you try, or have you EVER heard anyone address which part of him that died???
From post #72-
" At any rate, it's not clearly written whether Jesus was speaking of his soul, body, or all of him. If Jesus was speaking of just his body, it was seem to me to be uncharacteristically (suffering for my want of vocabulary) smart Alec since that was obvious to all considering the conjecture, "If you'd have been here, he wouldn't have died."
This sure sounds as though you believe that we can refer to EITHER body or soul when speaking of someone's death.
That's why I asked my questions
FreeGrace2 said:
James made physical death very clear in 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
See? Real simple. Physical death means the soul has left the body. So the body is put into the grave. No more physical life.
In fact, very few OT believers were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Only a few did and for special function, like David as King.
In the OT, the Spirit could be removed for cause, but that didn't result in eternal death. Do you believe that a believer can lose eternal life and end up in eternal death?
Eccl 12:7 is probably the closest verse to what you are asking for:
"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
The body returns to dust, and the spirit/soul returns to God, who created it.
So, the obvious question would be: What does God do with a soul that has returned to Him? We know the answer by the FACT that the Bible speaks of souls IN heaven in Rev 6 and all the souls who accompany Jesus back to earth at the Second Advent, etc, etc.
The body is obviousy not immortal. But the Bible is clear that souls continue to exist in eternity.
Jesus made that clear when He gave the account of Lazarus and a rich man, both of who died and went to Hades, one to Paradise and the other to a place of torments, where they could see each other and the rich man spoke with Abraham and Abe responded to him.
Only if the Bible says so. And the Bible doesnt say so.
I refuse to presume or assume anything. I believe what the Bible says.
Jesus cleared up what He meant by 'sleep.' You say that He speaks plainly, yet say He is using a euphemism for physical death. Perhaps He was addressing death in its complex entirety, as in bodily dead yet only sleeping, soul-wise.
You suppose I am wasting time.
Although we might, I don't believe Jesus wastes words. He spoke of Lazarus as being 'asleep.' I' can't be so quick to dismiss it as just a euphemism. When someone sleeps, they might look dead but they are not, but neither are they walking around and lucidly chitchatting with anyone. They aren't aware of anyone speaking to them unless its a light sleep, but I wouldn't think the 'sleep' of death would be a fairly deep sleep.
He keeps them, and no one can snatch them away from Him.
Lazarus and the rich man are archetypes of the saved and the lost, and the teaching is that there is no second chance. If you don't get it here, you can't do anything about it after you've already died, there's no 'water' for you, even if you use an 'unselfish' plea to tell warn others, everyone has moses and the prophets to either believe or ignore.
Someone once said that, "ought implies can," which I believe to be true, and though it may not necessarily be true that that converse "can implies ought," God is the only one with the power 'to destroy both body and soul,' and is well equipped to make do what He wants with that.
Good summary.
Just for clarity....Christ will come again and it will be His 2nd advent. He already came ...once.
Read John 11. Jesus first used a euphemism for physical death, but since His disciples misunderstood Him, He then used literal language.
I have to reject the idea of "soul sleep" since the Bible NEVER addresses any soul sleeping. And there are many examples of people who have died who AREN'T napping.
Of course I don't think Jesus wasted anything.
But the text PROVES it. So why all the push back?
What does this have to do with anything? The text is very clear. Lazarus WAS physically dead. Stone cold dead. And by the 4th day, Martha knew that "by this time, he stinketh". That's not sleeping, by any means. That is dead as a doorknob.
Based, on the text, this is not relevant.
There's no need to explain to me why you believe what you do. I've heard all the arguments and weighed them myself. Consider me lost if you must, seeing that my thoughts that Jesus spoke of Lazarus as am entire person initially before only referring to his body are lost to you.
