Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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What happened to Phillip? Was he carried off, snatched, seized, raptured, or filled with the Spirit?
Did you know the term being filled by the Spirit is a reference to be filled like the sails to the wind. The wind guides the ship. Is it possible he was immediately guided to leave the eunuch? Possibly of yes he was just poofed into another location.
God can do all things. My point being there is no scripture saying Jesus was glorified later.
Did you know the term being filled by the Spirit is a reference to be filled like the sails to the wind. The wind guides the ship. Is it possible he was immediately guided to leave the eunuch? Possibly of yes he was just poofed into another location.
God can do all things. My point being there is no scripture saying Jesus was glorified later.
I agree...
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With many things in eschatology so much is debated so what do you believe the hour of temptation is? Do you believe the 7 churches not only existed but prophetically speak to us today?
5610. hóra Strong's Concordance
hóra: a time or period, an hour
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho'-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything.
Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hóra
Phonetic Spelling: (ho'-rah)
Definition: a time or period, an hour
Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything.
How long is the season, the time, or the period? A literal hour? Or longer?
It is also wise to note that from Revelation 4 to 18 the church is no longer mentioned.
The church is not mentioned again until chapter 19 when John describes the marriage supper of the lamb.
But for the sake of appeasement lets say this verse doesn't speak of the rapture. It changes nothing about the other points I made or other arguments for a pretrib rapture.
L
I never said that you said that (reread my post please).
Instead, I was merely pointing out to you that this type of "resurrection" is NOT the same thing as "the first resurrection" which we read of in Revelation chapter 20...a "first resurrection" unto eternal life in glorified bodies which you wrongly allege occurred in three stages. It did not. Again, it occurs at the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign. I've already shown you that in scripture. If you want to reject this reality, then there's nothing that I can do about that.
If you only understood your own words, especially in relation to us "going to Jesus IN THE AIR", then you would easily recognize your own error.
Let's look at the passage from I Thessalonians that you referenced in previous posts.
I Thessalonians chapter 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here, Jesus is "COMING" (vs. 15) and "DESCENDING FROM HEAVEN" (vs. 16) or, more specifically, descending from what the Bible calls "the third heaven":
II Corinthians chapter 12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
According to scripture, there are three heavens, and God, Jesus, and the dead saints are presently in "the third heaven" from which Jesus Christ will one day "COME" and "DESCEND".
Yes, even as we previously read, at "the COMING of the Lord" (I Thess. 4:15), as Jesus Christ "DESCENDS from heaven" (I Thess. 4:16), "them also which sleep in Jesus" (I Thess. 4:14) or "the dead in Christ" (I Thess. 4:16) "will God bring with him" (I Thess. 4:14).
In other words, CLEARLY, both Christ and the dead in Christ are COMING and DESCENDING from heaven ("the third heaven").
Got it?
As they all COME and DESCEND FROM HEAVEN, the saints "which are alive and remain shall be caught up" or raptured "together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thess. 4:17)
"The clouds" are a part of THE FIRST HEAVEN or our earth's atmosphere.
Similarly, "the air" is THE FIRST HEAVEN or our earth's atmosphere:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g109/kjv/tr/0-1/
To recap:
Both Jesus and the dead in Christ are COMING and DESCENDING from "the THIRD heaven", and the saints which are alive and remain are caught up or raptured together with them IN THE CLOUDS, which are part of the FIRST heaven, and/or IN THE AIR which is the FIRST heaven or this earth's atmosphere.
With these realities before us, please answer this question:
Where is the alleged U-Turn back to "the third heaven"?
Of course, it's nowhere to be found because it's never happening.
Here's a question for you:
The Apostle Paul taught that to "be absent from the body" is "to be present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8), right?
With such being the case, Paul is definitely one of "the dead in Christ" (I Thess. 4:16) or "them also which sleep in Jesus" who "God will bring with him" (I Thess. 4:14) at Christ's COMING and DESCENT from "the third heaven".
Seeing how Paul has already been in "the third heaven" for approximately 2000 years without a glorified body, why would he suddenly need one there after this alleged pre-tribulation back to "the third heaven" which the Bible NEVER speaks about?
Again, it's absolute nonsense.
Paul told us exactly why the saints need glorified bodies when he said:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We need glorified bodies because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", and the kingdom of God is COMING TO THIS EARTH, even as Jesus taught his disciples to pray:
Matthew chapter 6
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Not only this, but this all transpires "at the last trump" (I Cor. 15:52).
Of course, in your alleged scenario, this is NOT "the last trump" because the trumpets of the book of Revelation will allegedly follow after it.
Just more nonsense which flies directly in the face of rightly-divided scripture.
This whole alleged 7-year marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven is pure nonsense too.
In the pre-tribulation rapture farce, Jesus and the saints are allegedly going to be chowing down in heaven for 7 years while the great tribulation (which is only 3 1/2 years, btw, and not 7 years) is taking place on the earth.
I can just see it now...
Tribulation saints are crying out to Jesus...BUT he's no longer seated at the Father's right hand as their intercessor/mediator because he's too busy telling Peter or one of the other disciples to please pass him a leg of lamb or something.
Again, it's utter nonsense.
And what of the tribulation saints?
They don't get to eat at the marriage supper of the Lamb?
Does Jesus at least give them a doggy bag?
Seriously, be ashamed of believing any of this nonsense and renounce these heretical beliefs, even as I was and did when the Lord first began to show me these things and so many more just like them many years ago.
Instead, I was merely pointing out to you that this type of "resurrection" is NOT the same thing as "the first resurrection" which we read of in Revelation chapter 20...a "first resurrection" unto eternal life in glorified bodies which you wrongly allege occurred in three stages. It did not. Again, it occurs at the ushering in of Christ's Millennial Reign. I've already shown you that in scripture. If you want to reject this reality, then there's nothing that I can do about that.
If you only understood your own words, especially in relation to us "going to Jesus IN THE AIR", then you would easily recognize your own error.
Let's look at the passage from I Thessalonians that you referenced in previous posts.
I Thessalonians chapter 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here, Jesus is "COMING" (vs. 15) and "DESCENDING FROM HEAVEN" (vs. 16) or, more specifically, descending from what the Bible calls "the third heaven":
II Corinthians chapter 12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
According to scripture, there are three heavens, and God, Jesus, and the dead saints are presently in "the third heaven" from which Jesus Christ will one day "COME" and "DESCEND".
Yes, even as we previously read, at "the COMING of the Lord" (I Thess. 4:15), as Jesus Christ "DESCENDS from heaven" (I Thess. 4:16), "them also which sleep in Jesus" (I Thess. 4:14) or "the dead in Christ" (I Thess. 4:16) "will God bring with him" (I Thess. 4:14).
In other words, CLEARLY, both Christ and the dead in Christ are COMING and DESCENDING from heaven ("the third heaven").
Got it?
As they all COME and DESCEND FROM HEAVEN, the saints "which are alive and remain shall be caught up" or raptured "together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thess. 4:17)
"The clouds" are a part of THE FIRST HEAVEN or our earth's atmosphere.
Similarly, "the air" is THE FIRST HEAVEN or our earth's atmosphere:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g109/kjv/tr/0-1/
To recap:
Both Jesus and the dead in Christ are COMING and DESCENDING from "the THIRD heaven", and the saints which are alive and remain are caught up or raptured together with them IN THE CLOUDS, which are part of the FIRST heaven, and/or IN THE AIR which is the FIRST heaven or this earth's atmosphere.
With these realities before us, please answer this question:
Where is the alleged U-Turn back to "the third heaven"?
Of course, it's nowhere to be found because it's never happening.
Here's a question for you:
The Apostle Paul taught that to "be absent from the body" is "to be present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:8), right?
With such being the case, Paul is definitely one of "the dead in Christ" (I Thess. 4:16) or "them also which sleep in Jesus" who "God will bring with him" (I Thess. 4:14) at Christ's COMING and DESCENT from "the third heaven".
Seeing how Paul has already been in "the third heaven" for approximately 2000 years without a glorified body, why would he suddenly need one there after this alleged pre-tribulation back to "the third heaven" which the Bible NEVER speaks about?
Again, it's absolute nonsense.
Paul told us exactly why the saints need glorified bodies when he said:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We need glorified bodies because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God", and the kingdom of God is COMING TO THIS EARTH, even as Jesus taught his disciples to pray:
Matthew chapter 6
[9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread.
[12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
[13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Not only this, but this all transpires "at the last trump" (I Cor. 15:52).
Of course, in your alleged scenario, this is NOT "the last trump" because the trumpets of the book of Revelation will allegedly follow after it.
Just more nonsense which flies directly in the face of rightly-divided scripture.
This whole alleged 7-year marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven is pure nonsense too.
In the pre-tribulation rapture farce, Jesus and the saints are allegedly going to be chowing down in heaven for 7 years while the great tribulation (which is only 3 1/2 years, btw, and not 7 years) is taking place on the earth.
I can just see it now...
Tribulation saints are crying out to Jesus...BUT he's no longer seated at the Father's right hand as their intercessor/mediator because he's too busy telling Peter or one of the other disciples to please pass him a leg of lamb or something.
Again, it's utter nonsense.
And what of the tribulation saints?
They don't get to eat at the marriage supper of the Lamb?
Does Jesus at least give them a doggy bag?
Seriously, be ashamed of believing any of this nonsense and renounce these heretical beliefs, even as I was and did when the Lord first began to show me these things and so many more just like them many years ago.
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It proves there will be tribulation against the church. The verse you posted even mention tribulation.
Also don't mock a ten day tribulation. Do you have any idea what being tortured for ten days feels like?? Some if not all of those people are also going to be murdered. "Ouch ten days" is inappropriate.
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John 16:33
English Standard Version
33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
Tribulation, persecution, trials, of course, the church will see this. But not in the same context as the Great tribulation.
10 days is not 7 years.
L
Hi, Lori.
I've heard all of these allegations in relation to this alleged "traditional Jewish wedding" for approximately 33 1/2 years now, and I rightfully reject them.
Oh, there are certain truths contained therein, but there are also enough errors to lead most of professing Christendom astray, and, sad to say, that is precisely what has happened.
In this response, I'll simply address one major error.
Are you ready?
Here it comes:
This was NOT even a Jewish wedding!
IN FACT, it couldn't have possibly been one.
The fictional farce begins with something like this...
"Turn in your Bibles to Genesis chapter 29.
There, we read:
[18] And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
[19] And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
[20] And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
[21] And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
[22] And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
Here, boys and girls, we see a traditional Jewish wedding in which Jacob served seven years for Rachel to become his wife, and at which time Laban made a feast.
Similarly, we will all enjoy a 7-year marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus in heaven one day..."
Blah, blah, blah.
Well, here's the thing:
IN REALITY, this was a SYRIAN WEDDING because Jacob, Rachel, Leah, and Laban were all SYRIANS.
As Moses rightly said to the children of Israel in relation to their "father", Jacob:
"And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:" (Deuteronomy 26:5)
Similarly, in relation to Laban, we read:
"And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan-aram, the sister to Laban the Syrian." (Genesis 25:20)
It wasn't until years later that God changed Jacob's name to "Israel" (Genesis 32:28) and Jacob had twelve sons who became known as the twelve tribes of Israel.
Furthermore, we derive our English word "Jew" from Judah, who was Jacob's/Israel's fourth son, and, obviously, Judah hadn't even been born yet at this time, so there were neither any Israelites nor Jews present at this alleged "traditional Jewish wedding" BECAUSE NO ISRAELITES OR JEWS WERE EVEN IN EXISTENCE AT THAT TIME.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=jew&ref=searchbar_searchhint
Jew (n.)
late 12c., Giw, Jeu, "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu (Modern French Juif), from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic (Semitic) jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "a Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him.
Anyhow, the whole premise is faulty right from the start, and there are plenty of other errors associated with this teaching as well.
I've heard all of these allegations in relation to this alleged "traditional Jewish wedding" for approximately 33 1/2 years now, and I rightfully reject them.
Oh, there are certain truths contained therein, but there are also enough errors to lead most of professing Christendom astray, and, sad to say, that is precisely what has happened.
In this response, I'll simply address one major error.
Are you ready?
Here it comes:
This was NOT even a Jewish wedding!
IN FACT, it couldn't have possibly been one.
The fictional farce begins with something like this...
"Turn in your Bibles to Genesis chapter 29.
There, we read:
[18] And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
[19] And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
[20] And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
[21] And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
[22] And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
Here, boys and girls, we see a traditional Jewish wedding in which Jacob served seven years for Rachel to become his wife, and at which time Laban made a feast.
Similarly, we will all enjoy a 7-year marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus in heaven one day..."
Blah, blah, blah.
Well, here's the thing:
IN REALITY, this was a SYRIAN WEDDING because Jacob, Rachel, Leah, and Laban were all SYRIANS.
As Moses rightly said to the children of Israel in relation to their "father", Jacob:
"And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:" (Deuteronomy 26:5)
Similarly, in relation to Laban, we read:
"And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padan-aram, the sister to Laban the Syrian." (Genesis 25:20)
It wasn't until years later that God changed Jacob's name to "Israel" (Genesis 32:28) and Jacob had twelve sons who became known as the twelve tribes of Israel.
Furthermore, we derive our English word "Jew" from Judah, who was Jacob's/Israel's fourth son, and, obviously, Judah hadn't even been born yet at this time, so there were neither any Israelites nor Jews present at this alleged "traditional Jewish wedding" BECAUSE NO ISRAELITES OR JEWS WERE EVEN IN EXISTENCE AT THAT TIME.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=jew&ref=searchbar_searchhint
Jew (n.)
late 12c., Giw, Jeu, "a Jew (ancient or modern), one of the Jewish race or religion," from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu (Modern French Juif), from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic (Semitic) jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "a Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him.
Anyhow, the whole premise is faulty right from the start, and there are plenty of other errors associated with this teaching as well.
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I'm not seeing this in scripture. There is no 10 day period in the tribulation event of Revelation. You have 3.5 years where the Jews will be misled. And 3.5 years of chaos.
Of course, we are also talking about the Great trib and not just the tribulation event. The tribulation event is 7 years. But the Great tribulation is commonly referred as the last 3.5 years.
No 10 day period is ever mentioned in Daniels or the Revelation timeline.
Of course, we are also talking about the Great trib and not just the tribulation event. The tribulation event is 7 years. But the Great tribulation is commonly referred as the last 3.5 years.
No 10 day period is ever mentioned in Daniels or the Revelation timeline.