Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Then it cannot within the hearer's power, right? When "hearing" is mentioned in the Bible it is referring to spiritual hearing,
not physical hearing. Otherwise, everyone who hears it would believe. And btw, your reply above didn't address my question about how those, who are incapable of hearing due to no fault of their own, are saved. What happens to them?
What about those who, don't hear because they can't hear? What happens to them as they will never come to faith as you define it
According to the Bible, natural man, the unsaved, are unable comprehend things spiritual. An ability to understand is only given when one becomes born-again
[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Everyone, until becoming saved, loves that darkness - the darkness being a trust in our works for salvation. The reason people don't hear spiritually is because they can't hear spiritually. God must first bless eyes to see and ears to hear.
If it is only offered by Christ, then Christ can't be the Saviour. To be the Saviour, He must be the one who actually saves with no contribution from/by anyone else. You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?
Repentance is repentance from dead works, which repentance is given as a gift from God:
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Saul was saved and born-again before he came to faith, or rather, as a result of it. He did not come to faith first and then was saved. Paul did not first choose to "accept" Christ - it was given to him without Saul's acquiescence
[Act 9:16, 20 KJV] 16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[Act 9:17-18 KJV]
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
not physical hearing. Otherwise, everyone who hears it would believe. And btw, your reply above didn't address my question about how those, who are incapable of hearing due to no fault of their own, are saved. What happens to them?
What about those who, don't hear because they can't hear? What happens to them as they will never come to faith as you define it
According to the Bible, natural man, the unsaved, are unable comprehend things spiritual. An ability to understand is only given when one becomes born-again
[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
[1Co 2:14 KJV]
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Everyone, until becoming saved, loves that darkness - the darkness being a trust in our works for salvation. The reason people don't hear spiritually is because they can't hear spiritually. God must first bless eyes to see and ears to hear.
If it is only offered by Christ, then Christ can't be the Saviour. To be the Saviour, He must be the one who actually saves with no contribution from/by anyone else. You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?
Repentance is repentance from dead works, which repentance is given as a gift from God:
[Heb 6:1 KJV]
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[Heb 9:14 KJV]
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Saul was saved and born-again before he came to faith, or rather, as a result of it. He did not come to faith first and then was saved. Paul did not first choose to "accept" Christ - it was given to him without Saul's acquiescence
[Act 9:16, 20 KJV] 16
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[Act 9:17-18 KJV]
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
A tactic of the devil? Really? You think that by saying/believing that Christ alone is the Saviour is a tactic of the devil?
I'm at a loss for words. I thought you considered yourself a Christian yet you don't believe in Christ.
Maybe it is that you who doesn't understand what a Saviour is? You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?
[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[Luk 11:17 KJV] 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth.
I'm at a loss for words. I thought you considered yourself a Christian yet you don't believe in Christ.
Maybe it is that you who doesn't understand what a Saviour is? You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?
[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[Luk 11:17 KJV] 17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth.
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K
Salvation is for whosoever will. If it was only for the elect the verse would say so. God does not choose who will be saved. We choose "choose you this day". You're making God to be a liar when He said He didn't want anyone to go to hell. You're saying He chose half or more of the population to go to hell. What cruelty is that?! That no matter what you do, you are doomed to hell because you cannot be saved?! Is that what you are saying?!
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K
So God created men, women and children to burn in hell. They are without hope from the moment they are born. How do you reach the lost? I traveled in ministry and we preached the Bible "whosoever will". What do you get up and tell people "well God only loves half of you, the rest of you are doomed to hell, goodnight". Why should I love people even God doesn't love enough to save?! Talk about spiritual pride !! How is that fair that God randomly chose people to be saved? It's no different than a lottery. smh
Why would anyone want to have children? Maybe one isn't magically "chosen". Are you saying parents have more love for their children than God does?! I spent most of my life in ministry, but it was all for nothing. God doesn't want those people saved. He created them to live and die in hopelessness. I don't usually jump on this train, but this maligns the character of God, a loving God who said Himself He wishes all to be saved. That right there is a flat out lie if He created people that cannot accept Him. And we know God is not a liar.
Answer this: according to your belief - that it is up to us to choose Christ of ourselves-- what happens to those who, for reasons beyond their control, cannot choose Christ: the infirm, those too old, those too young, those who don't have access to a Bible or to the Gospel? If they're not saved because they can't believe, what happens to them? Are they under a different Gospel or do they go to hell?
Besides that, what do you think this means, and how do you think it affects choosing (all people are/were "natural man" before becoming saved)
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Besides that, what do you think this means, and how do you think it affects choosing (all people are/were "natural man" before becoming saved)
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
K
Those too old? They would have had some point in life that they would have been young enough to be saved. No such thing as too young. A child isn't held accountable until the age of understanding, same with the infirm if they are in a childlike state. Otherwise they are able to accept the Gospel message. You don't need access to a Bible to be saved, nor do you necessarily need the Gospel "preached". There are many stories of Muslims and others having dreams of Jesus and becoming saved. God's arm is not so short that He cannot reach the lost. A missionary once told a story of how he went to a place he believed hadn't been reached with the Gospel. When he met the head of the tribe he was shocked when he asked if he was the man sent to tell them about Jesus. The entire tribe had been having dreams of Jesus before the missionary ever set foot on land. God can and will reach the lost with or without us. Or are you saying because you were born in deepest Africa you're destined to hell because you don't have a tv and a Bible?
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How do you know that?
If they're too young to understand to have faith and die what happens to them?
Where in the Bible do you find this? Please show it to me.
So you believe that has never, ever happened - that someone who hasn't heard of Christ and died? A doctrine can't be based upon
what may or may not have happened individually (even though I don't believe that dreams of Jesus constitute the hearing of the Gospel). And you're saying that it happens (if it did happen) in ALL cases? I don't believe it.
I'm saying the doctrine you espouse, if believed, leads to that conclusion - your doctrine, not mine
If they're too young to understand to have faith and die what happens to them?
Where in the Bible do you find this? Please show it to me.
So you believe that has never, ever happened - that someone who hasn't heard of Christ and died? A doctrine can't be based upon
what may or may not have happened individually (even though I don't believe that dreams of Jesus constitute the hearing of the Gospel). And you're saying that it happens (if it did happen) in ALL cases? I don't believe it.
I'm saying the doctrine you espouse, if believed, leads to that conclusion - your doctrine, not mine
God does not offer it to anyone - He gives it to those whom He has so chosen for it. We are all born under sin and deemed guilty by God from the womb. There is no technicality available that would us to offer to us a legal plea or justification before God for sin.
[Psa 58:2-3 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
[Psa 58:2-3 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
I don't understand your point? What did I change?
Actually you changed it. I said believe in Christ AS THE SAVIOUR.
Here is the whole exchange:
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A tactic of the devil? Really? You think that by saying/believing that Christ alone is the Saviour is a tactic of the devil?
I'm at a loss for words. I thought you considered yourself a Christian yet you don't believe in Christ.
Maybe it is that you who doesn't understand what a Saviour is? You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?"
Anyway, just answer the question: do you believe that Christ alone is the Saviour and if so, what do you think that means?
Afraid to answer?
Actually you changed it. I said believe in Christ AS THE SAVIOUR.
Here is the whole exchange:
"
A tactic of the devil? Really? You think that by saying/believing that Christ alone is the Saviour is a tactic of the devil?
I'm at a loss for words. I thought you considered yourself a Christian yet you don't believe in Christ.
Maybe it is that you who doesn't understand what a Saviour is? You do believe that Christ is the Saviour, don't you?"
Anyway, just answer the question: do you believe that Christ alone is the Saviour and if so, what do you think that means?
Afraid to answer?
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