Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Edify]

Yes God created the non elect to suffer His eternal vengeance for their sins, and He created the elect to experience His Rich Mercy for their sins.

Hello, I just got into the Op & the first thing I notice is this. I can't believe so many scriptures have been overlooked to make such a statement.
God is no respector of persons. Col3:23-25; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Eph 6:9; James 2:1, & many others. If God doesn't show partiality, how can He elect some for heaven & others for hell?
What about all of the "whosoevers" of scripture?
Luke 9:24
English Standard Version
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.
Mark 9:37
English Standard Version
“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
1John 5:1
English Standard Version
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
Matthew 23:12
English Standard Version
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Romans 10:13
English Standard Version
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Matthew 12:50
English Standard Version
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”
What about John 3:16?
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

ANYONE who doesn't understand John 3:16 isn't saved. The Holy Spirit gives the understanding to believe this & convinces(convicts) our hearts that this is true.
2 Peter 3:9
English Standard Version
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

John 7:37-38
English Standard Version
On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’ ”

Just how blind does one have to be to not believe Jesus' words?!?

 

[rogerg]

sorry man, Not buying it..Thats like saying a man who is drowning in the middle of an ocean in raging storm can not see someone who comes to rescue him..

In the biblical sense, in the realizing they are in need of rescue, they have been rescued. Notice, that the rescue (using your analogy) doesn't come about because the one being rescued declares it to happen nor demands it to happen. Their rescue is based upon, and solely based upon, the mercy of the one doing the rescuing and not the rescuee.

What do you think this verse is saying?

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

You can't be born again while you are still guilty of sin. The penalty of sin is death. You can't be made alive while still unjustified. Justification MUST come first.

The fruit of the spirit are given to those born again, your right. But you do not need that to say yes to the rescuer who came to rescue you

And please. lets back off the tone. What you think is obvious has no bearing on our discussion or the truth

Becoming saved/born again removes sin, the sinner doesn't/can't do so, nor do they cause it to happen - that was the whole purpose of Christ's offering -to remove sin from His chosen. Were it up to the sinner, it would then be their work which work can never save, and thereby would be supplanting the Saviour's role. Saul was chief of sinners right up to the point where he was saved. Likewise with us, we are remain sinners right up to the point of salvation.

Regarding backing off - I will if you will. Remember this?

"this is really going deep to try to refuse to see a truth. "

 

[rogerg]

you take romans 9 out of context. Roman 9 quotes an OT passage in which God tells Israel he has the right if the lump defiles itself to remake the clay.

Yes, an OT passage and then reiterated in the NT, meaning it is still applicable and by so doing, God emphasizing its significance and importance. What do you think these verses mean? They mean a new spiritual Israel that is not the nation of Israel.

[Rom 9:24-25 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Gal 6:16 KJV] 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

By verse 25, God is declaring a new Israel. Henceforth from that point on, all the saved, are saved, on the same basis - that they were chosen individually for such by God into the new Israel of God.

 

[kaylagrl]

Sorry no it doesnt.

Sorry, no, I believe what the Word says.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In the biblical sense, in the realizing they are in need of rescue, they have been rescued. Notice, that the rescue (using your analogy) doesn't come about because the one being rescued declares it to happen nor demands it to happen. Their rescue is based upon, and solely based upon, the mercy of the one doing the rescuing and not the rescuee.

What do you think this verse is saying?

Where do you get this demand to be rescued stuff?

Does a person who is drowing demand to be rescued. or do they just let go and allow the rescuer to do their job? if they will not sit and do nothing and allow the rescuer to save them, they will be lost. It takes humility. As a rescue swimmer, If you go try to save person who thinks they can still save themself, You are supposed to let them comtinue. Because they are dangerous and can not be saved..

Its called become bancrupt in spirit. Which is what Jesus said, Blessed are those who become poor in spirit (literally bancrupt) for theirs is the kingdom.

Become poor in spirit is not demanding, It is acknowledging you have no hope and are desperate.. Like the tax collector

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Yep. but we are talking the gospel.

1. We are condemned because of sin (rom 1 states we know this)
2. Jesus came to earth and on the cross. he paid our ransom
3. He offers to apply his death to our guilt so we can be saved (rescued)

thats not rocket science, ANYONE can understand this

Understanding the trinity? the jew? End times? how to love true biblical love?

now thats a different story.

Becoming saved/born again removes sin, the sinner doesn't/can't do so, nor do they cause it to happen - that was the whole purpose of Christ's offering -to remove sin from His chosen. Were it up to the sinner, it would then be their work which work can never save, and thereby would be supplanting the Saviour's role. Saul was chief of sinners right up to the point where he was saved. Likewise with us, we are remain sinners right up to the point of salvation.

Removing sin is an act, it is called being justified.

we are justified through faith. without faith there is no justification. And no new birth.

Regarding backing off - I will if you will. Remember this?

"this is really going deep to try to refuse to see a truth. "

This is not backing off. This is someone who thinks they have all truth trying to push their truth on someone else. who is deep in pride.

Remember, if you look back on CC history. many people got banned because of the calvinist debate, because people from both sides could not set aside their pride and learn to discuss the word. Instead they attacked, Used strawmen, or did like you are doing here. Not discussing,

If your heart is not open, if my heart is not open. Nothing we say to each other will matter, I will not go down that path

 

[rogerg]

if we can NOT have the ability to call out to God based on what we know.

then we have an excuse.

No, we don't. If we can be saved by calling out to God and from that becoming saved, then that salvation would be of our work, and in effect, we would have saved ourselves, making ourselves our own savior. But, the Bible is clear that our works can only lead to our judgment. However, should we be given the spiritual wisdom to know that we are in need of, and are dependent solely upon, the Saviour's salvation, and upon His mercy with no contribution from ourselves possible, it would only be because we have been given a renewed mind by the Holy Spirt which only accompanies salvation; that is, it comes as a result of, not a cause for.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, an OT passage and then reiterated in the NT, meaning it is still applicable and by so doing, God emphasizing its significance and importance. What do you think these verses mean? They mean a new spiritual Israel that is not the nation of Israel.

[Rom 9:24-25 KJV]
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Gal 6:16 KJV] 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

By verse 25, God is declaring a new Israel. Henceforth from that point on, all the saved, are saved, on the same basis - that they were chosen individually for such by God into the new Israel of God.

what does this have to do with the romans 9 verse you quoted earlier about the clay?

You agree that this OT passage speaks of gentiles. But you refuse to acknowledge the one OT passage spoke of Israel and God reforming them?

 

[rogerg]

Where do you get this demand to be rescued stuff?

"demand" being analogy's equivalent of becoming saved by the actions of the one needing salvation; that is believing that,
in the formulating of their own faith, God must save them .

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, we don't. If we can be saved by calling out to God and from that becoming saved, then that salvation would be of our work, and in effect, we would have saved ourselves, making ourselves our own savior. But, the Bible is clear that our works can only lead to our judgment. However, should we be given the spiritual wisdom to know that we are in need of, and are dependent solely upon, the Saviour's salvation, and upon His mercy with no contribution from ourselves possible, it would only be because we have been given a renewed mind by the Holy Spirt which only accompanies salvation; that is, it comes as a result of, not a cause for.

so your saying the tax collector was saved by his work? He demanded salvation? He forced God to save him?

its funny you have ignored that question multiple times now.. It speaks volumes.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"demand" being analogy's equivalent of becoming saved by the actions of the one needing salvation; that is believing that,
in the formulating of their own faith, God must save them .

I never thought God MUST save me,

No one I know thinks God MUST save them.

We live our lives knowing every day we wake up we are blessed, because we deserve hell. and its only by the grace of God that we will be raised by God. not because we are worthy. But because He is worthy and the cross..

 

[eXric]

Its scripture truth.

...so that is a yes to my question?

 

[eXric]

I never thought God MUST save me,

No one I know thinks God MUST save them.

We live our lives knowing every day we wake up we are blessed, because we deserve hell. and its only by the grace of God that we will be raised by God. not because we are worthy. But because He is worthy and the cross..

I like your point of view of this topic, that you have stated here and in many of your post.

 

[rogerg]

I never thought God MUST save me,

But isn't that the whole idea behind the doctrine that salvation is from a faith constructed of ourselves (with which, by the way, I totally disagree), instead of from Chris's faith to us as a gift resulting in our faith?

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[rogerg]

so your saying the tax collector was saved by his work? He demanded salvation? He forced God to save him?

its funny you have ignored that question multiple times now.. It speaks volumes.

I asked you to provide the verse(s) you are referring to so I could read them. You didn't do that so I can't reply.

 

[rogerg]

You agree that this OT passage speaks of gentiles. But you refuse to acknowledge the one OT passage spoke of Israel and God reforming them?

Romans 9:24 & 25 is a continuation of 15& 16 to explain who Rom 9:15 & 16 is referring to. God used the verses in the OT individuals as
allegory to demonstrate doctrine, which doctrine was spiritualized in Romans 9. The Bible employs allegory throughout.
Israel is only concerned insofar as it is a representation of God's Israel - the new spiritual Israel -- that is comprised of all of the
elect transcending all other earthly dividing lines.

 

[rogerg]

ep. but we are talking the gospel.

1. We are condemned because of sin (rom 1 states we know this)
2. Jesus came to earth and on the cross. he paid our ransom
3. He offers to apply his death to our guilt so we can be saved (rescued)

thats not rocket science, ANYONE can understand this

Understanding the trinity? the jew? End times? how to love true biblical love?

now thats a different story.

They do not have understanding, nor true faith should they hold that they contribute in any way to salvation, such as in trusting self-generated faith for it, which is what most who call themselves Christians believe. Until saved, things spiritual are hidden from them and folly unto them though they think otherwise. Based upon your reply about rocket science you make light of and invalidate, God's word.
BTW your #3 is wrong.

 

[eXric]

Not to take away from the lively discord.
God' view is not human view, we as believers should take that in to account, is that correct?
God can see the past, present, and future all at the same time. God is there in the past, is now , and is future all at same time. There for, God can elect , save, and judge at same time. Because it is happing all at same time from His prospective.
For example, God see a person in hell (meaning it is over for that person) already knowing this, God can elect for for this, while also giving that person free will to chose to be saved( which in this case the person chose wrong). This thread is talking like God is human, and with a human view point. Which is wrong. Please think of God's view and lean not on human understanding.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I like your point of view of this topic, that you have stated here and in many of your post.

thank you

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

But isn't that the whole idea behind the doctrine that salvation is from a faith constructed of ourselves (with which, by the way, I totally disagree),

The only way this is true is if my faith is in mysef My ability and my work.

My faith is not in self. my ability and my work, It is totally in God

instead of from Chris's faith to us as a gift resulting in our faith?

So Christ has faith in me?? This makes no sense.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justif

ied by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In this context. The faith of Christ led him to the cross. Which is the MEANS of my salvation.

If Christ did not have faith to the cross. we would have no ability to be saved or ability to say call out to God as the tax collector did

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I asked you to provide the verse(s) you are referring to so I could read them. You didn't do that so I can't reply.

I am going to be honest. the fact you are CLAIMING you have no knowledge of this passage, just makes me wonder how much of Gods word you really know. and question why you are here questioning me and others..

Luke 18: 9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

According to Jesus words. The tax collector humbled himself and will be exulted.

According to you. the tax collector demanded salvation and saved himself..