I totally agree with you saint and yes God does protect his saints. Now can you show me where this is in revelation.?
None of the scriptue after the 4th chapter talks about the church untill far later.
People trying to hide and flee to the mountains hide in the rocks. The slaughter of thousands. Where does is say but the faithful were protected by the Lord. Some what like the hebrews in egypt were passed over.
In Rev 5, there is a passage that indicates men are in heaven at that point:
"And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon." - Rev 5:3
At the fifth seal, we see that there are still people on earth that will die in the name of God. And that a number of people that came to heaven did so by dying first. Time is given for this to happen intentionally:
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." - Rev 6:9-11 KJV
Rev 7:3 still has servants of God on earth.
"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." - Rev 7:3 KJV
Of a countless multitude, 144k of the seals are attributed to children of Israel (which are presumably Christian).
"And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. [...] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;[...] These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7:4,9&14b KJV
In Rev 9 we see a torment given only to men without the seal of God. If only wicked people were on earth at this point, why would the phrasing take the time to specify about the seal of God?
"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." - Rev 9:4 KJV
In Rev 10, we see a reference to the days of the voice of the seventh angel (which is surely in the last days but presumably before the day of the Lord).
"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." - Rev 10:7 KJV
Rev 11 deals with the two witnesses that die, are resurrected, and then ascend up to heaven.
Rev 12 is the war in heaven, the devil's wrath, and the woman whose remnant seed are Christians on earth. There is a specific "woe" to those on the earth and
of the seal, showing that there are Christians (of the seal) on earth at that point.
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." - Rev 12:12 KJV
In Rev 13 the saints (presumably on earth) are overcome and only those without their name in the book of life remain (all the saints on earth are dead).
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." - Rev 13:7-8 KJV
More from Rev 13, the beast gives all the mark. Is it "all kinds of people" or "or all inhabiters of the earth"? Many translations agree with "all inhabiters" context.
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:" - Rev 13:16 KJV
Rev 14 brings in the imagery of the Lamb on mount Sion and the grapes of wrath being harvested.
The next few chapters are the
wrath of God where no saints are present on earth.
In all of this, the only ones that can be "of God" are Christians per 1 John 4
"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." - 1 John 4:2-4 KJV
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." - John 6:27 KJV
And it is a necessary event for believers to die per Hebrews 9:27, therefore any reference to being alive during the resurrection unto change would necessarily be a reference to someone alive following from a mortal resurrection. "Alive" or "awake" could be understood in the same way by that.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." - Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." - 1 Thes 4:16-17 KJV
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." - 1 Cor 15:50-52 KJV
To summarize:
Everyone is appointed to die. A pre-trib rapture to avoid death makes no sense. There are Christians mentioned after Rev 4, many times. There are references for Christians to intentionally be submitted to conditions that lead to their death (and through that come to heaven). There are verses that seem to indicate that there are points where no saints are alive on earth. And the only reference to a skyward removal in Rev is of the two saints
after they are killed and raised. Christians can be the only possible people that can be of God per 1 John 4 and John 6. And it appears that all living saints are killed in Rev 13 and everyone on the earth remaining gets the mark of the beast. Wrath of God is unleashed onto these people and then Christ returns. The first resurrection happens. All of those saved will be changed.
The question to you:
If you still believe in a pre-trib position, what part of the interpretation I presented do you disagree with?
Pre-trib is usually tied in with Dispensationaism, and so I suspect the first approach would be to try to reassign "saints", "martyrs", etc. to nonChristian individuals that would fit in with the Talmudic Jewish interpretation that Dispensationalism hybrids itself with. If that is so, how do you address 1 John 4:2-4?
By what grounds do you interpret that saints, martyrs, and those with the seal of God as being necessarily nonChristian? And if they aren't necessarily nonChristian, it would also not necessarily be the case that "all Christians experience a pre-trib rapture". And if it is the case that those saints and martyrs are necessarily Christian, it would follow that a pre-trib rapture of all Christians is necessarily untrue.
So in the end, this all boils down to the concept of whether someone that rejects Christ could be a saint.
If my understanding of Col 1 is correct, we see that all saints know the truth of Christ, therefore the saints mentioned in Revelation are not possibly nonChristian. It is therefore necessarily the case that pre-trib rapture is untrue.
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Chri st in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily." - Colossians 1:26-29 KJV
How do you address that?