Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?
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Under the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Church also rules as kings and priests after the SC. Resurrected tribulation saints also have a leadership role. The resurrected king David has a leadership role. Evidently Old Testament saints resurrected have a leadership role. All of these groups are part of the "first resurrection".
The Church does not inhabit the Earth in the way that you describe (they are no longer flesh and blood, and do not procreate). Survivors of the tribulation inhabit the Earth as flesh and blood.......both Jews and the Nations. They have children and re-populate the Earth during the millennium....and these survivors still have the fallen sin nature. It is this group that is deceived by an unbound Satan after the thousand years (Rev 20:7-9).
The Church does not inhabit the Earth in the way that you describe (they are no longer flesh and blood, and do not procreate). Survivors of the tribulation inhabit the Earth as flesh and blood.......both Jews and the Nations. They have children and re-populate the Earth during the millennium....and these survivors still have the fallen sin nature. It is this group that is deceived by an unbound Satan after the thousand years (Rev 20:7-9).
On the contrary, survivors and resurrected believers will be made new in glorified bodies, and that's in the 1 Cor. 15:52-53 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17, only two "proof text" that potentially teach this "rapture" doctrine. They were positively identified as the martyrs (Rev. 20:4). Those who rebel are the "rest of the dead" who will be bound with Satan for a thousand years (Rev. 20:5).
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
How does this verse support the wedding happening in Heaven?
Consider the language of v.7 - 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
The bolded words indicate what is coming, NOT what has already come previously.
v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
If the wedding/supper has already occurred, why would the angel tell John to write "who ARE invited"? Instead of "who WERE invited", since you believe the wedding/supper already occurred?
The language is against your view.
This idea demands MORE THAN 1 resurrection of the saved. No can do.
Acts 24:15, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23 all speak of a single resurrection. NONE of them allow for "stages" or "phases" of resurrection. That is just a man made theory.
How does this verse support the wedding happening in Heaven?
Consider the language of v.7 - 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
The bolded words indicate what is coming, NOT what has already come previously.
v.9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
If the wedding/supper has already occurred, why would the angel tell John to write "who ARE invited"? Instead of "who WERE invited", since you believe the wedding/supper already occurred?
The language is against your view.
This idea demands MORE THAN 1 resurrection of the saved. No can do.
Acts 24:15, Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, 1 Cor 15:23 all speak of a single resurrection. NONE of them allow for "stages" or "phases" of resurrection. That is just a man made theory.
OK, that's enough.
You want a biblical pattern? OK, let's go.
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and 1 Cor 15:23 all speak of a single resurrection.
Acts 24:15 speaks of a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. That's 2 total.
1 Cor 15:23 says that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 also shows the Second Advent and "gathering" or rapture but NO trip to heaven occur together.
And Rev 20:5 clearly calls the resurrection at the Second Advent the FIRST one.
That is the Biblical pattern.
What verse informs you of this? Rev 1:7 clearly says every eye will see Him.
You have NO verse that says any of this.
You have no evidence at all of your thoughts.
You want a biblical pattern? OK, let's go.
Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14 and 1 Cor 15:23 all speak of a single resurrection.
Acts 24:15 speaks of a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved. That's 2 total.
1 Cor 15:23 says that all believers will be resurrected "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 also shows the Second Advent and "gathering" or rapture but NO trip to heaven occur together.
And Rev 20:5 clearly calls the resurrection at the Second Advent the FIRST one.
That is the Biblical pattern.
What verse informs you of this? Rev 1:7 clearly says every eye will see Him.
You have NO verse that says any of this.
You have no evidence at all of your thoughts.
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No you've got that all wrong my friend. Flesh and blood survivors of the tribulation and the Church are absolutely distinct. In fact they couldn't possibly be more distinct.
Survivors of the tribulation are NOT the bride of Messiah. They are wedding GUESTS at the wedding supper/feast not the bride. They are not co-rulers of the Earth. They do not have glorified bodies they do not wear white robes of righteousness, do not wear crowns (or cast down their crowns in worshiping the Lamb), do not sit on heavenly (or earthly) thrones. They do not have unfettered access to the third Heaven. They cannot look into the Face of the Heavenly Father and survive. But bear in mind that Jewish survivors WILL be made righteous and holy and obedient......but evidently not the gentiles. But surviving Jews will still be flesh and blood, and live out their lives upon the earth, and procreate and have children.
Where are you getting these teachings? Is this what your pastor is teaching at your Church?
Survivors of the tribulation are NOT the bride of Messiah. They are wedding GUESTS at the wedding supper/feast not the bride. They are not co-rulers of the Earth. They do not have glorified bodies they do not wear white robes of righteousness, do not wear crowns (or cast down their crowns in worshiping the Lamb), do not sit on heavenly (or earthly) thrones. They do not have unfettered access to the third Heaven. They cannot look into the Face of the Heavenly Father and survive. But bear in mind that Jewish survivors WILL be made righteous and holy and obedient......but evidently not the gentiles. But surviving Jews will still be flesh and blood, and live out their lives upon the earth, and procreate and have children.
Where are you getting these teachings? Is this what your pastor is teaching at your Church?
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FreeGrace2 said:
How come there are NO verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
This is your answer to my question??? It doesn't even address it.
Jesus is NOW in heaven, if you didn't get the memo. Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
The Greek word for "receive" means "to retain, contain". iow, Jesus STAYS in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, which is the Millennial kingdom. That verse alone refutes any kind of pretrib visit.
What is well stated in the Bible is that Jesus will come back at the Second Advent and resurrect all believers.
To clarify, the verses I share are crystal clear about the timing and order of events. Unlike any of your verses.
You don't even have a verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Yet you believe what isn't written.
How come there are NO verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
This is your answer to my question??? It doesn't even address it.
Jesus is NOW in heaven, if you didn't get the memo. Acts 3:21 - Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
The Greek word for "receive" means "to retain, contain". iow, Jesus STAYS in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, which is the Millennial kingdom. That verse alone refutes any kind of pretrib visit.
What is well stated in the Bible is that Jesus will come back at the Second Advent and resurrect all believers.
To clarify, the verses I share are crystal clear about the timing and order of events. Unlike any of your verses.
You don't even have a verse about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Yet you believe what isn't written.
Rev 21:9
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
Here we see the Bride now being called the "Wife". This new title being used because the Bride and Groom have ALREADY COMPLETED:
1) the marriage ceremony, attended by a limited, intimate audience (in heaven, at the Father's house)
2) the wedding feast/meal/supper (on earth attended by many many more GUESTS).
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
Here we see the Bride now being called the "Wife". This new title being used because the Bride and Groom have ALREADY COMPLETED:
1) the marriage ceremony, attended by a limited, intimate audience (in heaven, at the Father's house)
2) the wedding feast/meal/supper (on earth attended by many many more GUESTS).
What do the Scriptures tell us the Kingdom of God is? Romans 14:17
"The creation was for God's glory and mans benefit. The a single purpose of history was to bring reconciliation through the sacrifice if Christ , which required that He take on human flesh. He finished his work, building a wooden bridge, to close the gap caused by sin, between His brothers and the Father. He assumed the very throne of God and sent the Holy Spirit to minister on earth , to turn men to repentance and grow the kingdom. This inaugurated the system , Christ in session, seated next to the Father, and the Holy Spirit ministering on earth , as the best possible situation to realize the church's commission. This is the order of history continuing to the last day when all who are in the graves will rise and enter the respective eternal states of blessedness or curse as judged by the Lord."
"The creation was for God's glory and mans benefit. The a single purpose of history was to bring reconciliation through the sacrifice if Christ , which required that He take on human flesh. He finished his work, building a wooden bridge, to close the gap caused by sin, between His brothers and the Father. He assumed the very throne of God and sent the Holy Spirit to minister on earth , to turn men to repentance and grow the kingdom. This inaugurated the system , Christ in session, seated next to the Father, and the Holy Spirit ministering on earth , as the best possible situation to realize the church's commission. This is the order of history continuing to the last day when all who are in the graves will rise and enter the respective eternal states of blessedness or curse as judged by the Lord."
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Dear Marilyn,
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.
As a student of His Word it would help to establish for us that which we should embrace as His Truth.
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.
As a student of His Word it would help to establish for us that which we should embrace as His Truth.
#1 is obvious and stated.
#2 is a real misread of the verse. Those in the first resurrection are the martyrs from the Trib. And they, in their glorified bodies, WILL reign with Christ in their resurrected bodies. I am perplexed at #2. The verse does support that point.
Therefore, #3 is also misguided. The text is very clear that it is the martyred saints will reign with Christ at their resurrection.
I am perplexed why you can't see the clarity in v.4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This verse very plainly says the martyrs "came to life (which is resurrection with glorified body) and reigned with Christ a thousand years". It couldn't be more plain than that.
Another problem here. Why do you think the record resurrection is BEFORE Gog and Magog??? That's not in Rev 20.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Follow the bolded words: when the 1,000 years are over, Satan is released and gathers from the 4 corners of earth, Gog and Magog for battle. After surrounding the camp of God's people (could be all the resurrected saints who had been reigning/serving in the kingdom) fire comes down from heaven and DEVOURS THEM.
There it is. God brings down fire and destroys ALL the unbelievers on earth. And what follows v.10? v..11-15 is the account of the GWT judgment.
So v.7-10 proves that all unbelievers will be killed before they are then resurrected for the GWT. And all the rest of unsaved mankind from Adam forward.
That connects all the dots.
The second resurrection of of all the unsaved, for the GWT. They will go to the lake of fire.
After they die, along with ALL the unsaved throughout human history, for the GWT.
Only one. The Bible says so. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
And John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.[/QUOTE]
Hi FG,
Are these the scriptures you are talking about.
1. John 5: 28, 29. `all who are IN THE GRAVES...` As you have pointed out before not all are in the graves but in heaven. Thus the Lord is talking about others who died and are NOT in heaven but in the graves. They will be judged -
a) those who have done good to the resurrection of life.
b) those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
That lines up with the GWT where people are judged according to their works. (Rev. 19: 13) Thus we see that Jesus is referring to TWO TYPES OF RESURRECTIONS - LIFE OR CONDEMNATION.
Note that the OT saints and the Body of Christ are NOT judged for we are under the blood of Jesus and are found in heaven.
2. 1 Cor. 15: 23. `But each in their own order:
1. Christ the first-fruits,
2. afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming,
3. then comes the end,.....(Gk. `teleo` to set out for a definite point or goal.)
During the `setting out,` we know there is the trib, and the millennium. In all that the Lord will be `putting down all rule and authority and power,` till finally death itself. (v. 24)
3. Rev. 20: 5 & 6. The resurrections are two TYPES of resurrections - one to LIFE and the other to CONDEMNATION.
#2 is a real misread of the verse. Those in the first resurrection are the martyrs from the Trib. And they, in their glorified bodies, WILL reign with Christ in their resurrected bodies. I am perplexed at #2. The verse does support that point.
Therefore, #3 is also misguided. The text is very clear that it is the martyred saints will reign with Christ at their resurrection.
I am perplexed why you can't see the clarity in v.4 - I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This verse very plainly says the martyrs "came to life (which is resurrection with glorified body) and reigned with Christ a thousand years". It couldn't be more plain than that.
Another problem here. Why do you think the record resurrection is BEFORE Gog and Magog??? That's not in Rev 20.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Follow the bolded words: when the 1,000 years are over, Satan is released and gathers from the 4 corners of earth, Gog and Magog for battle. After surrounding the camp of God's people (could be all the resurrected saints who had been reigning/serving in the kingdom) fire comes down from heaven and DEVOURS THEM.
There it is. God brings down fire and destroys ALL the unbelievers on earth. And what follows v.10? v..11-15 is the account of the GWT judgment.
So v.7-10 proves that all unbelievers will be killed before they are then resurrected for the GWT. And all the rest of unsaved mankind from Adam forward.
That connects all the dots.
The second resurrection of of all the unsaved, for the GWT. They will go to the lake of fire.
After they die, along with ALL the unsaved throughout human history, for the GWT.
Only one. The Bible says so. Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
And John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.[/QUOTE]
Hi FG,
Are these the scriptures you are talking about.
1. John 5: 28, 29. `all who are IN THE GRAVES...` As you have pointed out before not all are in the graves but in heaven. Thus the Lord is talking about others who died and are NOT in heaven but in the graves. They will be judged -
a) those who have done good to the resurrection of life.
b) those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
That lines up with the GWT where people are judged according to their works. (Rev. 19: 13) Thus we see that Jesus is referring to TWO TYPES OF RESURRECTIONS - LIFE OR CONDEMNATION.
Note that the OT saints and the Body of Christ are NOT judged for we are under the blood of Jesus and are found in heaven.
2. 1 Cor. 15: 23. `But each in their own order:
1. Christ the first-fruits,
2. afterwards those who are Christ`s at His coming,
3. then comes the end,.....(Gk. `teleo` to set out for a definite point or goal.)
During the `setting out,` we know there is the trib, and the millennium. In all that the Lord will be `putting down all rule and authority and power,` till finally death itself. (v. 24)
3. Rev. 20: 5 & 6. The resurrections are two TYPES of resurrections - one to LIFE and the other to CONDEMNATION.