Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

Hi David,

It is important to really understand this specific point if you want to know the answer to your questions.

Let me give you an illustration to show you why. Say a native finds a rectangle bit of metal lying on the ground. He wonders what it is. He holds it up one way and then the other. Which way does it go or what is it for? Now along comes a person who is looking for that part of his car, for the bit of metal, is a door. So then it becomes clear that the door is a part of a larger thing that has a purpose and the door fits into the larger purpose.

So that is what is happening when people look at the rapture, the catching away. They think does this bit go here or there or what is it for? Only when we understand God`s great purpose in Christ then we can put the `catching away` in its proper place.

So...

1. God`s purpose is that all rulership, in every realm is to come under the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1: 10)
2. We know that the Lord made all things, every realm for Himself with authority positions. (Col. 1: 16)
3. We know that in every realm there has come rebellion - Lucifer in angelic realm, Satan in Universe, Man on the earth.
4. We know that the Lord is at the right hand of the Father building and maturing the Body of Christ. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23, 4: 11 - 16)
5. And we see that Christ has all authority and power and is given the authority to bring the judgments, (John 5: 27)

So where and when do you find the Lord, the supreme high court judge, and His Body, the heavenly court, bringing judgment upon the rebellious?

David asked a good question, but your response did not answer his question. It seemed more of a theoretical construct.

If God's plan was for Jesus to take glorified believers to heaven, whether before or after the Tribulation, wouldn't it make sense that the Bible would have described it clearly?

Yet, there are no verses that even come close to showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting. It wasn't me either. I would never have stated point #2.

https://christianchat.com/threads/any-post-or-non-tribbers-in-here.204843/post-4815799

The error came from your post not spelling out the QUOTE function properly.

 

[DavidTree]

Hi David,

It is important to really understand this specific point if you want to know the answer to your questions.

Let me give you an illustration to show you why. Say a native finds a rectangle bit of metal lying on the ground. He wonders what it is. He holds it up one way and then the other. Which way does it go or what is it for? Now along comes a person who is looking for that part of his car, for the bit of metal, is a door. So then it becomes clear that the door is a part of a larger thing that has a purpose and the door fits into the larger purpose.

So that is what is happening when people look at the rapture, the catching away. They think does this bit go here or there or what is it for? Only when we understand God`s great purpose in Christ then we can put the `catching away` in its proper place.

So...

1. God`s purpose is that all rulership, in every realm is to come under the Lord Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1: 10)
2. We know that the Lord made all things, every realm for Himself with authority positions. (Col. 1: 16)
3. We know that in every realm there has come rebellion - Lucifer in angelic realm, Satan in Universe, Man on the earth.
4. We know that the Lord is at the right hand of the Father building and maturing the Body of Christ. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23, 4: 11 - 16)
5. And we see that Christ has all authority and power and is given the authority to bring the judgments, (John 5: 27)

So where and when do you find the Lord, the supreme high court judge, and His Body, the heavenly court, bringing judgment upon the rebellious?

OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

 

[Jocund]

Hi Jocund,

The OT speaks of Christ, and that is what is veiled from Israel in part now. However the Body of Christ revelation was not known before the Lord revealed it to the apostle Paul. (Eph. 3: 1 - 6)

That's not what that passage says either.

I'll leave the Eph 3 breakdown here inside of this quotebox:

"[1.] For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

[A.] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;

[B.] (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

[C.] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

[D.] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

[...] Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."

- Eph 3:1-7&20-21 KJV


In 1.A. Paul is stating that he passing on the message that the mystery was revealed to him.

In 1.B. that Paul's specific knowledge of the mystery Christ was not known in other ages

In 1.C. that then-Gentiles would become fellowheirs and of the same body (see Galatians 3).

In 1.D. that Paul was made a minister.

In verse 21 we see "glory in the church through all ages"

Paul's specific knowledge was not revealed to sons of men in other ages. That is entirely different than your claim that the "Body of Christ revelation was not known"

And I still don't see how that would fit into your claim that Micah 4:1-3 "describes Israel because the body of Christ wasn't revealed at that point."

We see in Hosea 2:23 that it was foretold that outsiders would be brought in as God's people. If OT Hebrews/Israelites/Jews were God's people and anyone else was considered a Gentile, it therefore necessarily follows that Hosea 2:23 means that Gentiles were destined to become God's people. Collectives of like-natured people are often referred to as bodies after some name (e.g. Israel, Judah, Christ) and therefore it also follows that these Gentiles would be united in one body under God.

I address the "body revelation" comment in the above quotebox.

[In Micah 4:1-3, the] Body of Christ revelation was NOT known in the OT

Are you suggesting that we should ignore the NT when interpeting OT prophesy?

we see that it is Israel, as promised

You have not cited or substantiated this point at all.

Micah 4 lines up well with the pregnant woman in Revelation 12 that gives birth to Christ, the "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (cf. Rev 12:5 & Rev 19:15). Hebrews 12:22 makes it the case that Micah's "Jerusalem" is in reference the heavenly Jerusalem.

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [...] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels," - Hebrews 12:18&22 KJV

 

[Mem]

Thank You Mem,
I was not following Marilyn's post and just caught the "I said (Free2Grace) and took that straightforward as from him.

Since I have previously been aware of the thoughts of Free2Grace on Rev, i responded to him - for his benefit, just as i desire others to do for me, if & when i err in a sentence/statement or thought.
Great blessing to learn from each other in sharing the Word.

I do not see error as a major on here as some do UNLESS it is outright distortion/manipulation against Scripture.

Example: "God's Name not in the Bible" - just dwell on that as your mind reminds yourself of Christ, the Gospel and the Apostles words.

I'm glad you did. I thought to but saw that you addressed it by the time I reach the most recent post. I would've probably just highlighted those particular lines (Having before only wondered how others so easily quote only portions of comments and from multiple people in the same reply, I just recently found out doing that, highlighting just a sentence from the post, brings up an extra dropdown "reply" feature) and asked, "huh?"

 

[Mem]

(Having before only wondered how others so easily quote only portions of comments and from multiple people in the same reply, I just recently found out doing that, highlighting just a sentence from the post, brings up an extra dropdown "reply" feature)

I also noted that you have to watch the placement of the cursor when doing this or it will misplace the highlighted quote, like in the middle of what you've previously just written.

 

[Marilyn]

DavidTree said:
OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

David asked a good question, but your response did not answer his question. It seemed more of a theoretical construct.

If God's plan was for Jesus to take glorified believers to heaven, whether before or after the Tribulation, wouldn't it make sense that the Bible would have described it clearly?

Yet, there are no verses that even come close to showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Hi SG, yes there are but as I said we need to understand the WHOLE PLAN, not just trying to put the bits where ever. I know that unless people understand the background I`m giving, then the scriptures will just be wiped away because most people have an earthbound view of God`s plan.

I will continue with David.

 

[Marilyn]

OK - sounds Good so far, so please procede.
Here is my question(s) again:
Can you please post the scriptures where the LORD and/or His Apostles declare and instruct us of:
Christ descending to rapture a select group of (any of the following) His Sons/Saints/Bride/Church/Elect BEFORE His Second Coming thereby leaving behind Saints that must go thru great tribulation AND then His Second Coming for the Resurrection and rapture for another group of Saints.

Hi David,

I need to be clear what you understand what I have said, otherwise we are just trying to put the bits (rapture etc) where ever without the WHOLE PICTURE.

So can you say back to me in your words what you understand what I have said from God`s word?

regards Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn]

That's not what that passage says either.



I address the "body revelation" comment in the above quotebox.



Are you suggesting that we should ignore the NT when interpeting OT prophesy?



You have not cited or substantiated this point at all.

Micah 4 lines up well with the pregnant woman in Revelation 12 that gives birth to Christ, the "man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (cf. Rev 12:5 & Rev 19:15). Hebrews 12:22 makes it the case that Micah's "Jerusalem" is in reference the heavenly Jerusalem.

"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [...] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels," - Hebrews 12:18&22 KJV

As I`ve said before scripture is all about the Lord and His purposes. Thus we do learn about the LORD from the OT and what NOT to do in behaviour, but we DO NOT learn about the Body of Christ. Hosea refers to the Israel that God will turn to Himself in the millennium.

Now if you read further in Micah you will see that it is still this damaged, sinful world. And the heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God in the NHNE. (Rev. 21: 2) So Micah is not about the heavenly Jerusalem.

`Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion; for I will make, your horn iron, and I will make your hooves bronze; you shall beat in pieces many peoples;...` (Micah 4: 13)

 

[Jocund]

Thus we do learn about the LORD from the OT and what NOT to do in behaviour, but we DO NOT learn about the Body of Christ.

Do you feel that the OT by itself gives you the whole picture of "what not to do in behaviour?" If you read the NT you will see that is not true.

What exactly do you mean by the concept that "we do not learn about the body of Christ" in the OT? Do you not believe that OT prophesy points to Christ? If OT prophesy points to Christ, why not the prophesy in Micah?

Hosea refers to the Israel that God will turn to Himself in the millennium.

Where?

I can show you exactly where in the NT that the Hosea 2 line is explained to be the bringing of Gentiles into the fold. Do you reject what the NT says?

Now if you read further in Micah you will see that it is still this damaged, sinful world. And the heavenly Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God in the NHNE. (Rev. 21: 2) So Micah is not about the heavenly Jerusalem.

Heavenly Jerusalem is not necessarily New Jerusalem.

(the heavenly Jerusalem is necessarily nonphysical while New Jerusalem in Rev 21 may or may not be physical depending on whether our interpretation renders it literal or figurative).

Read Micah 4:1-3 again and consider the connect to Hebrews' heavenly Jerusalem.

`Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion; for I will make, your horn iron, and I will make your hooves bronze; you shall beat in pieces many peoples;...` (Micah 4: 13)

The comparison is between the Daughter of Zion in Micah 4 and Revelation's woman in labour that births Christ. Not with the heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you suggesting that we should ignore the NT when interpeting OT prophesy?

Are you suggesting that the people who existed in the times of the OT could not rightly interpret the OT prophecies and writings (and promises, oaths, and so forth)... until the time when the NT writings came along so as to finally have the right "equipment" (so to speak) in order to interpret the OT correctly (at last)?

I have a problem with that kind of perspective.

= )

 

[DavidTree]

Hi David,

I need to be clear what you understand what I have said, otherwise we are just trying to put the bits (rapture etc) where ever without the WHOLE PICTURE.

So can you say back to me in your words what you understand what I have said from God`s word?

regards Marilyn.

Marilyn,
Yes, i see the whole Scripture which is KEY to understanding.
Many, here on CC, only see the bits and pieces that have been broken up by religion.

Scripture is a puzzle that is handed to us by religion all mixed up. So we must rely on each piece of scripture to form before our eyes as they fit together for the Beautiful Finished Picture of His Will/Plan/Consummation of Glory.

Proceed forward my Sister, as i do not follow the creeds of men.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you suggesting that the people who existed in the times of the OT could not rightly interpret the OT prophecies and writings (and promises, oaths, and so forth)... until the time when the NT writings came along so as to finally have the right "equipment" (so to speak) in order to interpret the OT correctly (at last)?

I have a problem with that kind of perspective.

= )

Along these lines ^ (for the readers of this thread), I find the following 17-min video to be helpful:

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Mark 13:24-27 KJV
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

From Earth to Heaven.

The passage is saying from whence all the elect will be gathered (i.e. from the extremities... no place left out); it is not saying "FROM" the uttermost part of the earth (as tho this is the origination-location) and "TO" the uttermost part of heaven (as tho this is the "DESTINATION-location"). No.

Instead, it's like if we say, we're going to host a Christian conference (or concert, for that matter ) and Christians will be gathered FROM ALL OVER: "FROM here TO Timbuktu"<--this is not saying "FROM here" is the origination-location" and "TO Timbuktu" is the "DESTINATION-location".


I've mentioned before to you that this passage has wording reflective of the passages concerning Israel's having been "SCATTERED" [judicially 'scattered']... and that Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Isaiah 27:[9,]12-13 ("GREAT trumpet"--distinct trumpet) when THEY ("ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel" [note: not "AS ONE" as WE will be!]--see v.9 and its correspondence with both Rom11:27[15] and Dan9:24) will be gathered into ONE PLACE upon the earth ("to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"--the OPPOSITE of Lk21:24's "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" 70ad aspect OF the Olivet Discourse).

IOW, this passage is NOT a "SNATCH / harpazo / caught up / rapture" passage. = )




____________

ETA: see this example (of wording) to gather what this type of thing is referring to:

"36I will bring the four winds against Elam from the four corners of the heavens, and I will scatter them to all these winds. There will not be a nation to which Elam’s exiles will not go. " - Jeremiah 49:36

 

[FreeGrace2]

https://christianchat.com/threads/any-post-or-non-tribbers-in-here.204843/post-4815799

The error came from your post not spelling out the QUOTE function properly.

I gotta quite typing so fast! I try to catch them, but obviously missed this one.

However, that doesn't answer who actually wrote #2. I would never consciously write such a thing. Hm. Maybe I wasn't conscious?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hi SG, yes there are but as I said we need to understand the WHOLE PLAN, not just trying to put the bits where ever. I know that unless people understand the background I`m giving, then the scriptures will just be wiped away because most people have an earthbound view of God`s plan.

I will continue with David.

No offense, but when someone has to provide a plethora of verses, under the guise of "background", I sense that they know there are no clear verses that plainly show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And that is what is needed to actually support the pretrib view. Without such a verse, everything is left to how to interpret verses that say NOTHING about a glorified trip to heaven.

And the thing is, if there will be such a trip to heaven, Bible would would have said so.

Again, I study the Bible the way the Bereans did. Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

iow, when someone claims that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven before the Trib, I examine the Scriptures until I either see that the Bible agrees with clear verses or the Bible is silent about that.

I have found that the Bible is not only silent on such a trip to heaven, but in fact the Bible clearly teaches something else, in plain language.

That is why I am convinced there is no pretrib rapture, or even a post trib rapture. There is no rapture at all.

What will occur is that those believers who are alive and remain until the coming of our Lord (1 Thess 4:17), will be caught up together with the saints in the clouds and be "changed in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Cor 15:52). At that point, all believers will be glorified (1 Cor 15:23) and with reign/serve in the Millennial Kingdom. Rev 20:4,5

Since Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection, and the Bible clearly teaches there are just two resurrections total, one for the saved and one for the unsaved (Acts 24:15, John 5:28,29), and 1 Cor 15:23 teaches that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes", there is no other option for me.

There is one resurrection, which will occur at the Second Advent (2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23) and all believers will be glorified, which prepares them to reign/serve in the King's Kingdom.

I invite you to address any of these verses I've shared and show me my error, if you see any.

Thank you.

 

[Live4Him2]

As I`ve said before scripture is all about the Lord and His purposes. Thus we do learn about the LORD from the OT and what NOT to do in behaviour, but we DO NOT learn about the Body of Christ.

The bold-faced part is an absolute lie which I only began to address here:

https://christianchat.com/blogs/which-came-first-the-church-or-the-nation-of-israel.205002/

As I said early on in this conversation, the pre-tribulation rapture lie is only the proverbial cherry on the cake of a much bigger lie:

The lie of dispensationalism.

 

[DavidTree]

Along these lines ^ (for the readers of this thread), I find the following 17-min video to be helpful:

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube

Stay away from people that place religion and carnal intellect on the same level as Truth.

 

[DavidTree]

Along these lines ^ (for the readers of this thread), I find the following 17-min video to be helpful:

Biblical Interpretation Series - Spiritualization by Paul Martin Henebury, PhD - YouTube

TRUTH is Spiritual, Logical, Illuminating, Transcending and Eternal Life.

“Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.”

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

TRUTH is "the same yesterday, today and forever."

 

[Jocund]

Are you suggesting that the people who existed in the times of the OT could not rightly interpret the OT prophecies and writings (and promises, oaths, and so forth)... until the time when the NT writings came along so as to finally have the right "equipment" (so to speak) in order to interpret the OT correctly (at last)?

I have a problem with that kind of perspective.

= )

Yes, many aspects of prophesies are left as a mystery until the time they are revealed. The NT reveals many of those mysteries and unveils that which was veiled in the OT.

How can you come to any other conclusion? These concepts are explicit in the NT.

If you have a problem with that you have a problem with scripture. If you reject the concept that you need the NT in order to interpret the OT you reject scripture.