Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[Pilgrimshope]

Then you disagree with God's word.

Suggest a study of the Bible on baptism...it is required for sin cleansing;

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

many others.

Like all of God's commandments...it is mandatory.

yes it’s a simple act of faith for the person Who believes Jesus does for thier sins. Thier response to this is to believe and get baptized into his death for sin

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4,

if we want remission of sins through Christ it’s laid out pretty simply.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

truthfully we need to hear and believe the simple truths and just act as if we believe them. Baptism becomes an argument but it really shouldn’t be one it’s actually a great blessing we share in.


It’s such a basic truth of doctrine it’s strange how things like baptism become a point of contention sad really when Christians can’t hardly agree on basics.

doctrine teaching these new age grace ideas are really corrupting a lot of basic simple easy to understand points of doctrine.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Definitely agreed that water baptism is not about eternal salvation of the soul.

I'm seeing Mark 16:16 from a brand new perspective today:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief and baptism = salvation of the soul and body
No belief = no salvation of the soul and body

Try John 3:5 now:

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Faith without works is dead. But works without faith saves no one.

Baptism like the flood of Noah is symbolic. One must be true in their heart to allow the Spirit to move them to a new birth.

Born of water in John 3:5 speaks of physical birth as in when the woman's water breaks.

Two births
Or
Two deaths

One must be born in order to be reborn.

 

[EyeWitness]

yes it’s a simple act of faith for the person Who believes Jesus does for thier sins. Thier response to this is to believe and get baptized into his death for sin

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4,

if we want remission of sins through Christ it’s laid out pretty simply.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

truthfully we need to hear and believe the simple truths and just act as if we believe them. Baptism becomes an argument but it really shouldn’t be one it’s actually a great blessing we share in.


It’s such a basic truth of doctrine it’s strange how things like baptism become a point of contention sad really when Christians can’t hardly agree on basics.

doctrine teaching these new age grace ideas are really corrupting a lot of basic simple easy to understand points of doctrine.

A really great post!

 

[Amanuensis]

yes it’s a simple act of faith for the person Who believes Jesus does for thier sins. Thier response to this is to believe and get baptized into his death for sin

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4,

if we want remission of sins through Christ it’s laid out pretty simply.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

truthfully we need to hear and believe the simple truths and just act as if we believe them. Baptism becomes an argument but it really shouldn’t be one it’s actually a great blessing we share in.


It’s such a basic truth of doctrine it’s strange how things like baptism become a point of contention sad really when Christians can’t hardly agree on basics.

doctrine teaching these new age grace ideas are really corrupting a lot of basic simple easy to understand points of doctrine.

I just happened to be studying Romans 6 today for a message this Sunday. The whole dead to sin motif. This is what I am focusing on.

 

[SomeDisciple]

I'm pretty sure those two verses are connected with the point Paul is making in the rest of that paragraph- and not the preceding one.

He is saying if there is no resurrection, and Jesus is simply dead and not risen, then what are we, who are baptized in the name of a dead guy, going to do? Why even bother with all of this? And why is he putting his life in danger to spread this message if he is just going to die anyway?

What advantage is there for Paul if the dead are not raised? I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is "no advantage" because if Jesus isn't risen, then we aren't saved- we're going to hades, and be thrown in the lake of fire at the end.

 

[Amanuensis]

Romans 7 4Therefore, my brothers and sisters, you also were put to deatha in relation to the lawb through the body of Christc so that you may belong to another. You belong to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the flesh,a the sinful passions aroused through the law were working in usa b to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the law, since we have died to what held us, so that we may serve in the newness of the Spirita and not in the old letter of the law.



Gal 2:19

19For through the law I died to the law,a so that I might live for God.b 20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.a The life I now live in the body,A I live by faith in the Son of God,b who lovedc med and gave himselfe for me.f



Col 2 20 20If you died with Christa to the elements of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world?

Col 3 1 So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.a 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.a 3For you died,a and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is yourA life, appears,a then you also will appear with him in glory.b

 

[Nehemiah6]

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live

Do you get it? "Though he were dead, yet shall he live" means that dead believers will be raised to life -- resurrection life. And that ties in with the fact that Christ Himself is our Resurrection and our Life. If you are in Christ, that is a sufficient guarantee that you will be a part of the first resurrection -- "resurrection of life". No mention of water baptism.

 

[JeffA]

1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

After having discussed the order of the resurrection in the preceding verses, Paul immediately asked a question without directly giving the answer because it's a rhetorical question that the reader of the Bible is supposed to know the answer to. Often this verse is misinterpreted by LDS folk to mean that it's possible to perform a substitutionary water baptism for someone who has died, under the belief that water baptism is a prerequisite for eternal salvation; this part is false.

However, Paul asks these question in regards to the order of the resurrection of the righteous, not eternal salvation. Now I will give you the correct answers to Paul's rhetorical questions in plain English showing a few different Bible versions with it.

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead. There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized. That's basically what Paul is suggesting here and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

After we understand these vital clues about Paul's water baptism theology, we can more accurately understand what the purpose of water baptism is he preached everywhere he went. It isn't about eternal salvation of the soul as some people think; Paul meant that water baptism is literally about becoming eligible to have an immortal resurrected body.

Paul is teaching that water baptism is literally necessary to have a resurrected body:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

Again:
Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Again:
Galatians 3:27 KJV
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Once you understand that water baptism is about the righteous getting a resurrected body in the first resurrection, you'll understand why Paul often made water baptism less important than preaching the gospel. It is more important to save as many souls as possible with the Gospel of Christ than it is to get people into the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

I must have missed the part where Paul mentions "water".

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 Corinthians 15:29 KJV
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

After having discussed the order of the resurrection in the preceding verses, Paul immediately asked a question without directly giving the answer because it's a rhetorical question that the reader of the Bible is supposed to know the answer to. Often this verse is misinterpreted by LDS folk to mean that it's possible to perform a substitutionary water baptism for someone who has died, under the belief that water baptism is a prerequisite for eternal salvation; this part is false.

However, Paul asks these question in regards to the order of the resurrection of the righteous, not eternal salvation. Now I will give you the correct answers to Paul's rhetorical questions in plain English showing a few different Bible versions with it.

Question 1:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? KJV
Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? NIV
Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? ESV

Answer 1:
We can reverse engineer Paul's line of thinking here by questioning why they are getting immersed if there is no resurrection of the dead. There is a resurrection of the dead and in order to take part in the resurrection you must be water baptized. That's basically what Paul is suggesting here and I will provide numerous scriptures that support it later in this post.

Question 2:
why are they then baptized for the dead? KJV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? NIV
If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? ESV

Answer 2:
This question is similar to the first question and so is the answer. The answer is that people are attempting to help deceased people by performing a water baptism for them so that they can be resurrected. There is no evidence from scripture that a substitutionary posthumous water baptism is effective to qualify a dead person for a resurrection, but there is evidence that a water baptism can provide a living person a resurrection.

After we understand these vital clues about Paul's water baptism theology, we can more accurately understand what the purpose of water baptism is he preached everywhere he went. It isn't about eternal salvation of the soul as some people think; Paul meant that water baptism is literally about becoming eligible to have an immortal resurrected body.

Paul is teaching that water baptism is literally necessary to have a resurrected body:
Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

Again:
Colossians 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Again:
Galatians 3:27 KJV
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Once you understand that water baptism is about the righteous getting a resurrected body in the first resurrection, you'll understand why Paul often made water baptism less important than preaching the gospel. It is more important to save as many souls as possible with the Gospel of Christ than it is to get people into the first resurrection:

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The idea that water baptism is necessary to qualify for receiving a glorified (resurrection) body is refuted by a single verse, which is in the same chapter.

1 Cor 15:23 very clearly teaches that ALL believers, not just water baptized believers, will received glorified bodies "when He comes". That means at the Second Advent. All believers, at the Second Advent.

This verse refutes your take on v.29. In fact, I haven't found any commentary that can explain v.29. Seems none of the scholars has figured out what Paul was referring to. And they admit it.

I find it interesting that you include 1 Cor 1:14-17 in your thread. Here, Paul, the greatest evangelist ever, emphasizes that he was sent to preach the gospel (power of God to salvation - Rom 1:16) and NOT to baptize.

There would need to be a very clearly worded verse that supports your claim about the necessity for water baptism to be in the resurrection.

And the question is begged; if a believer wasn't water baptized, would he/she ever receive a glorified body? If not, how can they enter the eternal city on the new earth?

Your thesis creates more questions than it answers.

 

[Runningman]

What I said was fact. I simply stated what scripture portrays. What you say is speculation. Where does scripture say he was baptized, fell away, or Christ show special grace (whatever that means).

Matthew 3:11 ESV
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

The Holy Spirit baptism is where we find salvation. Repentance of sins or sacrificial ceremonial atonements was practiced all throughout the OT. It was only through faith where people were seen as righteous and not the works of the law. Faith in God moved them to follow the law. Faith in Christ is a permanent baptism of the Spirit. Water baptism is symbolic and for the outward confession of ones inner dedication.

The verses I quoted you in the OP are about water baptism surely. I guess if those verses are not taken literally we're back to making the Bible say and mean anything we want it to.

 

[Runningman]

I must have missed the part where Paul mentions "water".

What do you think Paul was talking about when he said he thanks God that he didn't baptize any of them? The only kind of baptism a human is capable of giving someone is a water baptism.

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[Runningman]

yes it’s a simple act of faith for the person Who believes Jesus does for thier sins. Thier response to this is to believe and get baptized into his death for sin

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4,

if we want remission of sins through Christ it’s laid out pretty simply.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

truthfully we need to hear and believe the simple truths and just act as if we believe them. Baptism becomes an argument but it really shouldn’t be one it’s actually a great blessing we share in.


It’s such a basic truth of doctrine it’s strange how things like baptism become a point of contention sad really when Christians can’t hardly agree on basics.

doctrine teaching these new age grace ideas are really corrupting a lot of basic simple easy to understand points of doctrine.

Of course my intention is for not for this to be an argument. I have presented the word of God not only with a clear conscience, but with a happy conscience. The verses I showed are clear to me and I hope it helps someone who was on the fence about getting water baptized to see that there is actually use for it.

 

[JeffA]

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV

I stand corrected. I do think that
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
is speaking of water baptism.

I think he is trying to make them see that water baptism isn't the path to salvation, but the Gospel IS.

 

[Runningman]

Do you get it? "Though he were dead, yet shall he live" means that dead believers will be raised to life -- resurrection life. And that ties in with the fact that Christ Himself is our Resurrection and our Life. If you are in Christ, that is a sufficient guarantee that you will be a part of the first resurrection -- "resurrection of life". No mention of water baptism.

There's no mention of water baptism because what you're talking about is salvation of the soul through faith in Christ. There are probably dozens of verses about being saved by grace through faith. Jesus did say more about water baptism, though.

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus spent much of His time just telling people to believe to be saved now suddenly in Mark 16:16 he said "believe and be baptized to be saved." Of course Christ didn't mean that water baptism saves the soul, He made it clear that the saving of the soul is a Spiritual act by God Himself because of faith. Water baptism saves peoples' bodies from the resurrection. As the OP I posted says, that's Biblical.

 

[Runningman]

I stand corrected. I do think that
1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV
is speaking of water baptism.

I think he is trying to make them see that water baptism isn't the path to salvation, but the Gospel IS.

Totally agree with you. Okay, so what kind of baptism was Paul speaking about in Romans 6:4-5?

Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

To me verse 5 says the symbolism of water baptism actually guarantees we will raise in the resurrection. Of course this is highly interpretive, but this is my take on it.

 

[Runningman]

The idea that water baptism is necessary to qualify for receiving a glorified (resurrection) body is refuted by a single verse, which is in the same chapter.

1 Cor 15:23 very clearly teaches that ALL believers, not just water baptized believers, will received glorified bodies "when He comes". That means at the Second Advent. All believers, at the Second Advent.

This verse refutes your take on v.29. In fact, I haven't found any commentary that can explain v.29. Seems none of the scholars has figured out what Paul was referring to. And they admit it.

I find it interesting that you include 1 Cor 1:14-17 in your thread. Here, Paul, the greatest evangelist ever, emphasizes that he was sent to preach the gospel (power of God to salvation - Rom 1:16) and NOT to baptize.

There would need to be a very clearly worded verse that supports your claim about the necessity for water baptism to be in the resurrection.

And the question is begged; if a believer wasn't water baptized, would he/she ever receive a glorified body? If not, how can they enter the eternal city on the new earth?

Your thesis creates more questions than it answers.

No offense but I am not going to play your game of pitting the Bible against itself in order to try to debunk other parts of it. Paul was clear with his words about water baptism being necessary for the resurrection. I suggest you try to find a way to harmonize the scriptures rather than pit verses against each other. As Christians we shouldn't try to debunk or refute the parts of the Bible that we don't like. I am sure that isn't what being a good steward of the Word is about.

 

[Runningman]

Do you get it? "Though he were dead, yet shall he live" means that dead believers will be raised to life -- resurrection life. And that ties in with the fact that Christ Himself is our Resurrection and our Life. If you are in Christ, that is a sufficient guarantee that you will be a part of the first resurrection -- "resurrection of life". No mention of water baptism.

And I might add that it could have been assumed that everyone Jesus spoke to was already baptized.

Mark 1:4-5
4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

As you can see, literally everyone was going out to get baptized. Even the scribes and Pharisees showed up at one point. It stands to good reason that most, if not all, everyone Jesus spoke to had already been baptized. This could be a clue as to why Jesus rarely mentioned water at all because John the Baptist already got everyone!

 

[JeffA]

Totally agree with you. Okay, so what kind of baptism was Paul speaking about in Romans 6:4-5?

Romans 6:4-5 KJV
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection.

To me verse 5 says the symbolism of water baptism actually guarantees we will raise in the resurrection. Of course this is highly interpretive, but this is my take on it.

I know that having been baptized, submerged, myself doesn't make me an expert.
The way I look at it, though. (and this is my "current" opinion) is that Jesus is referencing Spiritual Baptism.
Including:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized (in the Holy Spirit) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus had a tendency to talk about spiritual things rather than fleshly things.
These mortal bodies will go back to dust. Water won't change that.

 

[Runningman]

I'm pretty sure those two verses are connected with the point Paul is making in the rest of that paragraph- and not the preceding one.

Paul spoke about the order of the resurrection then immediately asked questions about baptism and resurrection. I think the train of thought about the baptism for the dead is still connected to the resurrection. He didn't create an entirely separate train of thought nor suggest that Jesus didn't rise from the dead, but rather if "the dead", as in the general population of people who have died, do not rise from the dead then why get baptized? The only point I can see he is trying to make is that there is a resurrection and that you need to get baptized to rise from the dead.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No offense but I am not going to play your game of pitting the Bible against itself in order to try to debunk other parts of it.

I take no offense in your incorrect conclusion that I play the game of pitting the Bible against itself.

Paul was clear with his words about water baptism being necessary for the resurrection.

That would be one opinion. It is clearly not clear. And if so, it would destroy v.23. And create the problems I posed.

I suggest you try to find a way to harmonize the scriptures rather than pit verses against each other.

Maybe you aren't aware, but the way to figure out what any individual verse means is whether you can find another verse that says what you think the verse says more clearly, or find a verse that refutes your view of the verse in question.

What I did is quote 15:23 that refutes your idea of "requirements" to be in the believer's resurrection. ALL believers will be in that single resurrection.

As Christians we shouldn't try to debunk or refute the parts of the Bible that we don't like.

You really misunderstand. I don't dislike any part of the Bible. What there is to dislike is someone's take on a verse that can be refuted by a clear verse, which I've done.

I am sure that isn't what being a good steward of the Word is about.

I am being a good steward of the Word.

1 Cor 15:23 is very plain in its language; there will be A resurrection and it will include "those who belong to Him". Now, do you think that phrase includes a requirement of water baptism to be resurrected, or do you think the phrase includes ALL believers?

I think it is very clear. And doesn't allow for your take on requirements to meet the resurrection.

As far as "requirements" for being in the believers' resurrection, there is one: be a believer. Belong to Him. That's it.

And as I pointed out, commentators can't figure out what v.29 refers to. They can only guess. Seems to puzzle all of them.