Pentecostalism's sketchy origins
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For what I am told by CPs on this thread, nowadays, tongues are ONLY spoken by and understood by CP's EXCLUSEVLY. And ONLY occur within the cloistered confines of a CP Church building/Church assembly. And that tongues ALWAYS have been and always will be incoherent, unintelligible gibberish and NEVER were a commonly USED language. And tongues today NEVER need to be interpreted that's no longer even necessary or useful. And that if you do NOT speak tongues you are somehow "missing out", and that you might not even be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Some even say that you absolutely must speak tongues as a confirmation of your salvation.
And most bizarre of all, that tongues were NEVER meant to have UTILITY (and never did) to proclaim the Gospel.
In terms of what the Bible says, I find this CP tongues doctrine far too difficult to swallow. Pardon the pun.
And most bizarre of all, that tongues were NEVER meant to have UTILITY (and never did) to proclaim the Gospel.
In terms of what the Bible says, I find this CP tongues doctrine far too difficult to swallow. Pardon the pun.
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That's exactly what I keep asking. A perfectly legitimate perfectly reasonable request.....and based squarely upon the Scriptural precedent of both the the Old and New Testament!
Not only that they CPs should be chomping at the bit to do exactly this to confirm their miraculous gift for the benefit of the entire world wide Church. This abject selfishness, so brazely manifest by CPs, makes their gift tragically impotent.....
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Not only that they CPs should be chomping at the bit to do exactly this to confirm their miraculous gift for the benefit of the entire world wide Church. This abject selfishness, so brazely manifest by CPs, makes their gift tragically impotent.....
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Yes indeed, according to Paul himself, the 1Cor 14 "tongues" are undoubtedly a real, existing LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD. The context demands this be so. Interpretation is precisely the same as what they do today with headsets at the EU Parliament or anywhere else. Nothing more nothing less. This of course corroborates the Acts 2 phenomenon of LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD, where the INTERPRETERS were the FOREIGNERS THEMSELVES!
1Co 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1Co 14:9-11
So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue WORDS easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the WORLD, and NONE of them is without SIGNIFICANCE.
Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:13
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:27-28
If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
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And with that I bid you good day.
1Co 14:5
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
1Co 14:9-11
So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue WORDS easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.
There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the WORLD, and NONE of them is without SIGNIFICANCE.
Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
1Co 14:13
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:27-28
If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
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And with that I bid you good day.
If it is not a foreign language that can be identified 1 Cor 14:2, 14 how would your test work? No recording necessary if that is your test. We don't believe the scriptures teach that is must be a foreign language so that is your
And if someone has the real gift and is Spirit led they would tell you to get lost because the Spirit does not indulge skeptics like that, so if someone went along with the stupid test that won't work that would make them suspect as well.
It was probably similar to the prophetic utterances of Mary, Elizabeth, Simeon, Zachariah, which were references to the prophesied salvation that the prophets promised in Jesus. But we can't say exactly, we have to stick to the text to determine the content and effect. They were wondering what it meant. They were perplexed. "What does this mean"
Then, Peter preached the Gospel and they believed what Peter told them. This is the text. That is what I am sticking to. I would be wrong to say that the 120 preached the Gospel and they heard them and repented, that is not what the text says. The tongues only got their attention, but faith came by the message Peter preached.
To imagine that after this day, these 120 went to various countries and preached the Gospel to them in their own language while not knowing what they were saying would be an odd imagination not supported by scripture.
To say that any of the other groups received the gift to be able to go on the mission field and preach to foreigners and that they did so, would be just pure fantasy.
There is nothing in the accounts to support that. It would be interjection based on an invented idea about Acts 2. And to try and make these ideas fit 1 Cor 14 is a constant effort in mental gymnastics that I can't understand why anyone would have confidence in.
Whether one is a Pentecostal or Ceasationist, we can be sure that they did not go to foreign nations and preach the Gospel to them using the gift of tongues after Pentecost.
And if someone has the real gift and is Spirit led they would tell you to get lost because the Spirit does not indulge skeptics like that, so if someone went along with the stupid test that won't work that would make them suspect as well.
It was probably similar to the prophetic utterances of Mary, Elizabeth, Simeon, Zachariah, which were references to the prophesied salvation that the prophets promised in Jesus. But we can't say exactly, we have to stick to the text to determine the content and effect. They were wondering what it meant. They were perplexed. "What does this mean"
Then, Peter preached the Gospel and they believed what Peter told them. This is the text. That is what I am sticking to. I would be wrong to say that the 120 preached the Gospel and they heard them and repented, that is not what the text says. The tongues only got their attention, but faith came by the message Peter preached.
To imagine that after this day, these 120 went to various countries and preached the Gospel to them in their own language while not knowing what they were saying would be an odd imagination not supported by scripture.
To say that any of the other groups received the gift to be able to go on the mission field and preach to foreigners and that they did so, would be just pure fantasy.
There is nothing in the accounts to support that. It would be interjection based on an invented idea about Acts 2. And to try and make these ideas fit 1 Cor 14 is a constant effort in mental gymnastics that I can't understand why anyone would have confidence in.
Whether one is a Pentecostal or Ceasationist, we can be sure that they did not go to foreign nations and preach the Gospel to them using the gift of tongues after Pentecost.
Jesus/Yeshuah/YAHshuah could only pray to His FATHER since YAHshuah(YHWH came down/humbled Himself = Isa ch45 Phil 2:5-11).
This is why you will ONLY find the LORD Jesus Christ praying to His FATHER with the Holy Spirit RESTING upon HIM.
My NAME for ALL Generations............Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah = Gospel = No other NAME
This is why you will ONLY find the LORD Jesus Christ praying to His FATHER with the Holy Spirit RESTING upon HIM.
My NAME for ALL Generations............Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah = Gospel = No other NAME
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Check out a commentary from authors who are of your denominational persuasion on these verses. Even if they are ceasationists they will be intellectually honest and be able to help you see that this is a Holy Spirit gift of interpretation not a natural translation from someone who does not need to be saved or have the Holy Spirit.
Even the ceasationists Greek scholars who believe these gifts stopped after the bible was written do not interpret this as natural translators. The gift of interpretation was listed along with Faith, miracles, healings, prophecy and tongues. It can't be like a UN translator.
If you read the commentaries explain the Greek syntax and lexical rules you will see that it is impossible to assign a meaning that is not a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit on par with the gift of tongues. The interpreter would not be someone who knows the language.
Now your ceasationists who don't agree with modern tongues still interpret the gift of interpretation at the time of 1st Century Corinth church to be a gift of prophetic utterance and not a linguistic language translator pulled off the street that recognized the language being spoken.
Even the ceasationists Greek scholars who believe these gifts stopped after the bible was written do not interpret this as natural translators. The gift of interpretation was listed along with Faith, miracles, healings, prophecy and tongues. It can't be like a UN translator.
If you read the commentaries explain the Greek syntax and lexical rules you will see that it is impossible to assign a meaning that is not a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit on par with the gift of tongues. The interpreter would not be someone who knows the language.
Now your ceasationists who don't agree with modern tongues still interpret the gift of interpretation at the time of 1st Century Corinth church to be a gift of prophetic utterance and not a linguistic language translator pulled off the street that recognized the language being spoken.
interesting,
I think it is even clearer. in The Gospel of John chapter 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
After Jesus rose from the dead and came to the disciples recorded in the gospel John chapter 20:22
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
then he told them to wait until they receive power to be a witness Acts chapter 1:8 and Luke 24:49
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
in the context and the chronological time frame given in the gospels, It is my understanding
1. Jesus Breathed on the Disciples as recorded in John 20:22 and said receive the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures say their minds were open to understanding all that Jesus said. Jesus said this would happen in John chapters 14-16.
2. Jesus had already risen from the dead and breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit.
3. the waiting as instructed by Jesus was to receive Power to be a witness of The resurrection of the Lord AS Jesus said in Acts 1:8
"witness of me ". The Holy Spirit breathed on them in john 20:22 was for salvation as Jesus had risen.
The empowering of Acts chapter 2 we see was to be a witness as Acts 4:33 says to have the power to witness that Jesus did indeed rise again and is alive. That empowering today is still happening as God confirms HIS word with signs and wonders done by HIS Body the church as Jesus said to do.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit have not stopped because our witness of the Resurrected Lord is NOT DONE. Therefore God is still confirming HIS Word ( Jesus) with signs & wonders.
I think it is even clearer. in The Gospel of John chapter 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
After Jesus rose from the dead and came to the disciples recorded in the gospel John chapter 20:22
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
then he told them to wait until they receive power to be a witness Acts chapter 1:8 and Luke 24:49
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
in the context and the chronological time frame given in the gospels, It is my understanding
1. Jesus Breathed on the Disciples as recorded in John 20:22 and said receive the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures say their minds were open to understanding all that Jesus said. Jesus said this would happen in John chapters 14-16.
2. Jesus had already risen from the dead and breathed on them to receive the Holy Spirit.
3. the waiting as instructed by Jesus was to receive Power to be a witness of The resurrection of the Lord AS Jesus said in Acts 1:8
"witness of me ". The Holy Spirit breathed on them in john 20:22 was for salvation as Jesus had risen.
The empowering of Acts chapter 2 we see was to be a witness as Acts 4:33 says to have the power to witness that Jesus did indeed rise again and is alive. That empowering today is still happening as God confirms HIS word with signs and wonders done by HIS Body the church as Jesus said to do.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit have not stopped because our witness of the Resurrected Lord is NOT DONE. Therefore God is still confirming HIS Word ( Jesus) with signs & wonders.
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CP's..... no such thing.
Do yo think southern baptists & methodists should be put in the same classification? Of course not.
Two different movements... one from somewhere in the 1890's - 1906. The other in 1960's.
Just because Johnny Mac put them together in his books & seminars doesn't mean it's so.
Before you believe Johnny Mac, You ought to research him first.
He puts down the pentecostals & charismatics as "strange fire", then stands on the same stage with them & agrees with them in conferences.
It's funny how money brings them into agreement.
Do yo think southern baptists & methodists should be put in the same classification? Of course not.
Two different movements... one from somewhere in the 1890's - 1906. The other in 1960's.
Just because Johnny Mac put them together in his books & seminars doesn't mean it's so.
Before you believe Johnny Mac, You ought to research him first.
He puts down the pentecostals & charismatics as "strange fire", then stands on the same stage with them & agrees with them in conferences.
It's funny how money brings them into agreement.
On the contrary these, foreign languages WERE absolutely identified in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit actually compiled a specific list to remove all doubt that what was heard were real living languages, foreign to Israel, commonly spoken at that period of time.
Parthians Medes Elamites Mesopotamia Cappadocia Pontus Asia Phrygia Pamphylia Egypt Libya Cyrene Rome Cretes Arabians
Can anyone doubt that this is an actual list of foreign languages? Spoken by foreigners?
Furthermore, in 1Cor 14, Paul clearly specifies these tongues as foreign languages. And in chapters 12 and 14 he begs/petitons/commands for interpreters/interpretation. The necessity of interpreters was not required in Acts 2.........because the foreign visitors (who were undoubtedly hearing their own native languages) did not need them!
All of which taken together confirms that these tongues were a miracle of SPEAKING! Not one of simply HEARING foreign languages when someone is speaking unintelligible gibberish.
Parthians Medes Elamites Mesopotamia Cappadocia Pontus Asia Phrygia Pamphylia Egypt Libya Cyrene Rome Cretes Arabians
Can anyone doubt that this is an actual list of foreign languages? Spoken by foreigners?
Furthermore, in 1Cor 14, Paul clearly specifies these tongues as foreign languages. And in chapters 12 and 14 he begs/petitons/commands for interpreters/interpretation. The necessity of interpreters was not required in Acts 2.........because the foreign visitors (who were undoubtedly hearing their own native languages) did not need them!
All of which taken together confirms that these tongues were a miracle of SPEAKING! Not one of simply HEARING foreign languages when someone is speaking unintelligible gibberish.
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No, that is not what I said, so this is your false conclusion about it.
Men speaking to God fits with the Acts 2 narrative. They were speaking the mighty things of God, but they were speaking to God. The fact that men heard (and understood) what they were speaking doesn't mean they were speaking to men. So Paul says in 1 Cor that they speak to God. But they are speaking mysteries because no one in the congregation understands what is being said. It means that the tongues are not interpreted or translated. "Mysteries" simply means "not understood." It does not mean something mysterious that no man can understand (even if translated).
It just seems to me that you find things wrong with what I say just because you're looking for something wrong (even if it's not there).
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I've no doubt you really believe in it, and so you think you know something. But Paul wrote "he who thinks he knows something doesn't yet know as he ought to know."
So your "if" statement is not even a response to what I said earlier. I said that I once practiced modern tongues, and I was encouraged by other tongue-talkers, and everyone assumed it was all the same because it sounded the same. Yet, God Himself told me it wasn't of Him.
But what I feared was declaring it to be false. Did I really hear from God? After many years of research, my conclusion is that I heard from God, and that's my testimony here, that modern tongues is false, because it's not what is described in the NT.
So I never "feared that my experience was fake," as you suggest. What I fear is God. So where's your fear of God? Could you be wrong about how you are reading scripture in this regard? Why are you swallowing the P/C movement hook, line, and sinker, without even questioning what it is?
So your "if" statement is not even a response to what I said earlier. I said that I once practiced modern tongues, and I was encouraged by other tongue-talkers, and everyone assumed it was all the same because it sounded the same. Yet, God Himself told me it wasn't of Him.
But what I feared was declaring it to be false. Did I really hear from God? After many years of research, my conclusion is that I heard from God, and that's my testimony here, that modern tongues is false, because it's not what is described in the NT.
So I never "feared that my experience was fake," as you suggest. What I fear is God. So where's your fear of God? Could you be wrong about how you are reading scripture in this regard? Why are you swallowing the P/C movement hook, line, and sinker, without even questioning what it is?
I can agree that Acts 2 confirms that these tongues were heard as such, (the list you gave) but I don't see that 1 Cor 14:2 can be forced to mean that they are speaking known languages in the church in Corinth. It seems there is a different scenario being describe. No foreigners are hearing it in their own langauge and the gift of interpretation is required instead. A supernatural gift of interpretation.