Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[FreeGrace2]

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This simple clear statement of Jesus makes the process of salvation so clear, God makes the first move. He draws.

Once again a calvinist quotes 1 verse but leaves out the very next verse, which EXPLAINS who will come to Jesus. And it isn't about unconditional election.

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

Blue words describe what some from the "all" do: listen and learn from the Father.

Green words is the result of listening and learning from the Father; coming to Jesus.

We read in more than one place,

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Did you read v.9 and v.23?

v.9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
v.23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The KEY to understanding v.10-18 is found in v.10 in the phrase, "it is written". Know what that refers to? Paul selected 6 OT verses to demonstrate the fact of v.9. iow, Paul listed a variety of things (v.10-18) that show that all are under the power of sin.

Once having understood that, v.10 and 11 are quotes from Psa 14:1-3, which is about the fact that atheists claim there is no God. So obviously "none of them will seek after God".

To apply v.11 to the entire human race is a big mistake. In fact, the Bible recognizes that there are people who DO SEEK God.

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

The red words refer back to v.26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

iow, God created mankind (all the nations) to inhabit the whole earth, and He determined the WHEN and WHERE each person would be placed. Then, v.27 tells us WHY God did this. So they would seek Him and find Him. Not that everyone does. But that is because everyone is free to make their own choices.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Mankind in the Garden had everything but that was not enough mankind wanted control and by doing so he lost what had been given to him.

I disagree. Man simply rebelled, and it wasn't for control. In fact, God gave all control of the garden to man. Read Genesis. It was Satan who deceived the woman who wanted control.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your are correct i should have said false charge...

Thanks for clarifying your opinion.

 

[Beckie]

not my opinion your words .

Your are correct i should have said false charge...

Thanks for clarifying your opinion.

 

[rogerg]

Nope. The Greek for "the many" literally means "the masses".

Do you believe that MOST people will be saved? Read Matt 7:14.

If "the many" means "less than all", then it SURELY MUST mean "most" or "vast majority". Which YOU KNOW very well cannot be true.

"The Greek for "the many" literally means "the masses".

No, it doesn't, it means, NOT the masses, but many -

polys

1. many, much, large

"Do you believe that MOST people will be saved? Read Matt 7:14."

I have no way of knowing that. We do know this however:

[Rev 7:9 KJV]
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"If "the many" means "less than all", then it SURELY MUST mean "most" or "vast majority". Which YOU KNOW very well cannot be true."

"surely must"? Boy, that's a stretch -- and only Freegrace's would attempt to make it. Where in the Bible, did you find that? See Rev 7:9 above for clarification of the "many".

 

[rogerg]

In case I haven't been clear, the Bible's use of "faith" is in the sense of trusting apart from experience.

What the demons "believe" in James 2:19 isn't about trust in any sense. It's about what they know from experience.

So, there is NOTHING about th "faith of demons" in the Bible anywhere, in spite of all the preachers and teachers who use that silly phrase.

Huh?

 

[Beckie]

Once again a calvinist quotes 1 verse but leaves out the very next verse, which EXPLAINS who will come to Jesus. And it isn't about unconditional election.

v.45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Red words state the facts that God has provided facts to everyone. This is what Romans 1:19-20 is about. Because everyone has been taught by God, no one has an excuse. v.21

Blue words describe what some from the "all" do: listen and learn from the Father.

Green words is the result of listening and learning from the Father; coming to Jesus.


Did you read v.9 and v.23?

v.9 - What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
v.23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The KEY to understanding v.10-18 is found in v.10 in the phrase, "it is written". Know what that refers to? Paul selected 6 OT verses to demonstrate the fact of v.9. iow, Paul listed a variety of things (v.10-18) that show that all are under the power of sin.

Once having understood that, v.10 and 11 are quotes from Psa 14:1-3, which is about the fact that atheists claim there is no God. So obviously "none of them will seek after God".

To apply v.11 to the entire human race is a big mistake. In fact, the Bible recognizes that there are people who DO SEEK God.

Acts 17:27 - God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

The red words refer back to v.26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

iow, God created mankind (all the nations) to inhabit the whole earth, and He determined the WHEN and WHERE each person would be placed. Then, v.27 tells us WHY God did this. So they would seek Him and find Him. Not that everyone does. But that is because everyone is free to make their own choices.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.


I disagree. Man simply rebelled, and it wasn't for control. In fact, God gave all control of the garden to man. Read Genesis. It was Satan who deceived the woman who wanted control.

sure it was control man wanted control over what he ate.

More of the Words of Jesus which does not change the the clearness of verse 44
oh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:48 I am that bread of life.

 

[rogerg]

And that isn't "faith OF". That's obedience.

Yes, it is. Did you miss the verses I posted regarding Christ's faith? BTW faithfulness and obedience aren't mutually
exclusive - regarding salvation, Christ's faithfulness was obedience's end result. In any event, what matters is that Christ was faithful, and because He was, His offering was accepted by God the Father.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"The Greek for "the many" literally means "the masses".

No, it doesn't, it means, NOT the masses, but many -

polys

1. many, much, large

"Do you believe that MOST people will be saved? Read Matt 7:14."

I have no way of knowing that.

Ok, so you admit you either didn't read Matt 7:14 or don't understand it. Her it is:

But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

here is the preceding verse:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

So, these 2 verses make clear that many MORE will go to destruction (lake of fire) than will go to life (eternal life).

So, "the many" CANNOT mean "many much large" if you believe Matt 7:13,14.

We do know this however:

[Rev 7:9 KJV]
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"If "the many" means "less than all", then it SURELY MUST mean "most" or "vast majority". Which YOU KNOW very well cannot be true."

"surely must"? Boy, that's a stretch -- and only Freegrace's would attempt to make it. Where in the Bible, did you find that? See Rev 7:9 above for clarification of the "many".

OK, ignore or outright reject Matt 7:13,14. That's on you.

But you seem comfortable believing what MOST believers don't believe; that most people will go to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In case I haven't been clear, the Bible's use of "faith" is in the sense of trusting apart from experience.

What the demons "believe" in James 2:19 isn't about trust in any sense. It's about what they know from experience.

So, there is NOTHING about th "faith of demons" in the Bible anywhere, in spite of all the preachers and teachers who use that silly phrase.

Huh?

Yep. Just what I thought. So many believers have no idea what James meant by James 2:19. Most use this verse to claim that the demons "believed" but aren't saved, when James wasn't even suggesting such a thing.

The point of 2:19 is that being "monotheistic", like the demons, isn't the issue.

Demons are monotheistic because they KNOW it from experience. Most of the nations around Israel were polytheistic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

sure it was control man wanted control over what he ate.

OK, you are free to make your own choices about what you believe, but I gave you facts that prove otherwise.

Apparently you don't understand WHY Adam ate the fruit. It was the woman who was tricked (deceived) by Satan to eat it. And it was the woman who offered it to Adam. He ate it because he chose the woman over God and His plan. Plain and simple.

More of the Words of Jesus which does not change the the clearness of verse 44

I see. So you are just trying real hard to negate the clarity of v.45. Go ahead. God gave you the freedom to choose what you will believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, it is. Did you miss the verses I posted regarding Christ's faith? BTW faithfulness and obedience aren't mutually exclusive - regarding salvation, Christ's faithfulness was obedience's end result. In any event, what matters is that Christ was faithful, and because He was, His offering was accepted by God the Father.

What you still don't understand, apparently, is that Christ's obedience still doesn't save anyone. His obedience unto death made our salvation possible, but doesn't save.

Seems calvinists will just not understand or believe that.

In any event, calvinists cannot prove that God is the cause of a person believing. The Bible says that man believes from the heart, in Rom 10:10. And it doesn't involve God forcing that heart to believe.

 

[John146]

Say John146 - Are you discounting the lessons of Scripture. In other words, are you attempting to dismiss Hebrews because it was written to Jewish believers?

By this logic, if you are, then we should dismiss the entirety of the Old Testament. After all, it was written to Israel and not the Gentile nations.

I hope I am reading you wrong.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

All scripture is written for us, but not all scripture is written to us. Knowing the difference will clear up most false doctrines.

 

[John146]

Yes, it is. Did you miss the verses I posted regarding Christ's faith? BTW faithfulness and obedience aren't mutually
exclusive - regarding salvation, Christ's faithfulness was obedience's end result. In any event, what matters is that Christ was faithful, and because He was, His offering was accepted by God the Father.

Christ's faith, which is God's righteousness, is given to them that believe. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer.

 

[Beckie]

OK, you are free to make your own choices about what you believe, but I gave you facts that prove otherwise.

Apparently you don't understand WHY Adam ate the fruit. It was the woman who was tricked (deceived) by Satan to eat it. And it was the woman who offered it to Adam. He ate it because he chose the woman over God and His plan. Plain and simple.


I see. So you are just trying real hard to negate the clarity of v.45. Go ahead. God gave you the freedom to choose what you will believe.

I am not trying to negate anything just posted the Scriptures ...
Once again i have never studied any of Calvin's writings . I have studied Scofield and his bible . Read much of the dispensational teachings . Had i studied Calvin's work i would most likely say thank you when someone tried to use the word Calvinist as a slam. About 30 years ago i was kicked out of "chats' for posting Scripture your posts are no different.

I full well know it was Eve who ate first and she got Adam to eat the fruit. I mistakenly thought a grown man would understand the word man to mean mankind, i even used the word mankind a couple times .. sheesh

 

[rogerg]

What you still don't understand, apparently, is that Christ's obedience still doesn't save anyone. His obedience unto death made our salvation possible, but doesn't save.

No, those whom God would save were chosen to such by God at the foundation of the world. They become saved for one reason only:
that God specifically selected them to it, and for no other reason.
God's promise made to Abraham established and guaranteed that salvation: since it was God's promise,
it was also (and only) God's responsibility to bring it to fruition, which He did through Christ.

[[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[rogerg]

Christ's faith, which is God's righteousness, is given to them that believe. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer.

Absolutely !

 

[rogerg]

In any event, calvinists cannot prove that God is the cause of a person believing. The Bible says that man believes from the heart, in Rom 10:10. And it doesn't involve God forcing that heart to believe.

I can prove it

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

When someone is saved and born again their heart becomes changed by the Holy Spirit. Only then can they believe from the heart:

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am not trying to negate anything just posted the Scriptures ...

I haven't charged you with trying to negate anything.

Once again i have never studied any of Calvin's writings . I have studied Scofield and his bible .

This is a typical response when one is identified as a calvinist. Doesn't matter that you didn't study calvin. Many many pastors have been trained in reformed theology, which is calvinistic. Certainly you sit under a pastor. He may very well be a calvinist.

Read much of the dispensational teachings . Had i studied Calvin's work i would most likely say thank you when someone tried to use the word Calvinist as a slam.

I wasn't using the word as a slam. Wow are you hypersensitive about your calvinism.

This is what calvinists believe:
1. man is unable to believe the gospel and therefore requires that God regenerate him/her so they can and will believe.
2. God chose/elected certain individuals for salvation apart from any condition (that would include faith as a condition).
3. Christ did not die for everyone, but only for these certain elected individuals.
4. God's grace is irresistible, meaning that those God chooses for salvation WILL believe.
5. a. all believers WILL persevere in the faith.
b. all believers will be eternally secure.

Seems some calvinists believe 5a and others 5b.

It all adds up to TULIP.

About 30 years ago i was kicked out of "chats' for posting Scripture your posts are no different.

My posts include Scripture. If people don't like it, I don't care. Scripture is Scripture.

I full well know it was Eve who ate first and she got Adam to eat the fruit. I mistakenly thought a grown man would understand the word man to mean mankind, i even used the word mankind a couple times .. sheesh

From what you have posted, I had no idea what you know or didn't know.

Please check your sensitivities at the door.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What you still don't understand, apparently, is that Christ's obedience still doesn't save anyone. His obedience unto death made our salvation possible, but doesn't save.

No, those whom God would save were chosen to such by God at the foundation of the world. They become saved for one reason only:
that God specifically selected them to it, and for no other reason.

There is ONE GLARING error of calvinism.

1 Cor 1:21 tells us plainly WHY God saves people.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

you don't have to like this verse and what it teaches, or believe what it teaches. But it is God's Word nonetheless.

God is pleased to save those who believe.

The calvinist twist is "God is pleased to save those He chose". Yet, no verse says that.

God's promise made to Abraham established and guaranteed that salvation: since it was God's promise,
it was also (and only) God's responsibility to bring it to fruition, which He did through Christ.

OK, now read all of Romans 4 to see WHY Abraham is called the "father of all who believe". Salvation is based, NOT ON ELECTION, as you presume, but on faith in Christ.

[[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Right. God is omniscient. He has always known who will and who won't believe.

[Gal 3:8 KJV] 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Even this verse refutes your calvinist leanings. God justifies (saves) THROUGH FAITH.

How 'bout that! Same as Eph 2:8.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In any event, calvinists cannot prove that God is the cause of a person believing. The Bible says that man believes from the heart, in Rom 10:10. And it doesn't involve God forcing that heart to believe.

I can prove it

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Nope. Doesn't say "cause". It says "given". As in permit, or allow. Way different.

Words DO mean things. And you don't get to twist them.

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Doesn't say anything about God being the cause of people believing.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

v.28 explains why Jesus used the word "work". The Jews asked Jesus what "work God requires for eternal life". They were thinking about what kind of work that God required for salvation.

btw, both Eph 2:8,9 and Rom 4:4,5 show that faith is NOT a work. In any sense.

When someone is saved and born again their heart becomes changed by the Holy Spirit. Only then can they believe from the heart:

[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Sorry again to inform you that this verse doesn't support your calvinism. Show from the context that this precedes salvation.

Ah, but you can't. Because the context doesn't show it.