Water baptism is necessary to be in the first resurrection

[Wansvic]

Baptism was initiated by John the Baptist? That's news to me.

Although the term "baptism" is not used to describe the Jewish rituals, the purification rites in Halakha, Jewish law and tradition, called tvilah, have some similarity to baptism, and the two have been linked. The tvilah is the act of immersion in naturally-sourced water, called a mikva. In the past Hebrew Bible and other Jewish texts, immersion in water for ritual purification was established for restoration to a condition of "ritual purity" in specific circumstances. For example, Jews who (according to the Law of Moses) became ritually defiled by contact with a corpse had to use the mikvah before being allowed to participate in the Holy Temple. source

I am aware of the OT foreshadows that later became the NT water baptism for remission of sin in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 

[Runningman]

“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup
I will drink, or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” “We can,” the
brothers answered. “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and
you will be baptized with the baptism that I undergo."

I do not believe the baptism Jesus was alluding to water baptism.

Look at this, please:

John the Baptist was with two of his disciples when he saw Jesus walking nearby.
John said, “Look, the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world!” The two
disciples who were with John and heard John the Baptist say this then followed Jesus.

Andrew, as one of those two disciples of John the Baptist, had surely already been
water baptized. He was the first to follow Jesus, with an un-named other, probably Phillip.

So why would Jesus tell them they would undergo the same baptism? Since they had already
been water baptized. Scripture further affirms this: The whole Judean countryside and all the
people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Holy means set apart.

Ephesians 4:5-6

Are you so sure that the baptism Jesus was referring to is either water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism? For one, Jesus is speaking in the present tense here, not past. So unlikely He is recalling His baptism from the Jordan river, since we both agree the water baptism had already happened to everyone.

I believe Jesus is speaking in figurative language here saying, "Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized" referring to the baptism of sufferings He was going through.

 

[Wansvic]

In order to believe in Christ, one automatically repents. For repentance is a change of mind.

Water baptism is NO MORE a requirement for salvation than circumcision.

The reception of the Holy Spirit is the new birth.

This understanding is refuted by the biblical record.

Notice the people present at the Day of Pentecost did not automatically repent when they believed in Jesus. It was only after they asked what they must do that Peter told them to repent, be baptized for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost. Also noteworthy are verses 40-41. It was only after the people believed and obeyed Peter's message that they were saved.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

 

[Runningman]

It was literal in the sense a physical action but almost everything Jesus did was symbolic.

Jesus didn't do a symbolic baptism of His death and resurrection because He didn't need to. Jesus literally died and was resurrected. The water baptism Jesus participated in was a righteous act.

Why else would Jesus say this?

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Clearly it is not believing that brings judgement upon someone, not water baptism. That means you can believe and not be water baptized and still have salvation of the soul, but if you are not baptized you are not saved in a different way. The way someone is not saved by refusing water baptism is apparently they won't get resurrected.

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Do you see that the symbolic act of water baptism is required to share in the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[Runningman]

According to what you mean by linked. For example,


Acts 16:30-31
New International Version

30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Agreed belief is necessary for baptism.

Salvation came first then the water baptism later.

The Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost,

Noticed it remained on Him and now He baptized with the Holy Ghost.

No problem with that as far as I can tell.

John 3:5 in context the water is of physical birth of a woman

Nicodemus thought it was live birth from a woman, too. Obviously Nicodemus was wrong. Now it's time to hear Jesus.

Acts 2:38
Question: Does the Holy Spirit in scripture always come after a water baptism?

Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word (which came before baptism) were baptized.

Sometimes not, but the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus after His water baptism.

 

[Wansvic]

So you believe death bed conversions are illegitimate?

October 1953, a twin-engine B-25 veered off course and plunged into the fogbound summit of Pine Mountain, killing three Air Force crewmen and a passenger upon impact.

Colquitt, the minister, said he approached the airman and asked him if he had been saved. "We prayed and God saved him and then he died," Colquitt said. "Wasn't that a miracle?"

Does your gospel condemn the airman or was he saved?


Matthew 3:11
English Standard Version

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

God's fire either refines or destroys. The tongues of fire at Pentecost is also to represent the Holy Spirit.

What I share is found in the pages of the bible. It is not my gospel.

There are many things people believe that are not found in the word. And as the word itself says, "...be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

 

[Roughsoul1991]

John's statement does not negate the need to be baptized in water. Jesus stated water baptism was to be done in order to fulfill all righteousness.

Fulfill is the key word. Prophecy fulfilled as John the Baptist prophecized Jesus's coming. The one who would take away the sin of the world.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

What I share is found in the pages of the bible. It is not my gospel.

There are many things people believe that are not found in the word. And as the word itself says, "...be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Right.... I have heard that before.

 

[JeffA]

What I share is found in the pages of the bible. It is not my gospel.

There are many things people believe that are not found in the word. And as the word itself says, "...be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Unfortunately for your way of discernment, you only think SOME verses are true.
My base premise is that all of scripture is true.
Therefore, all scripture must reconcile.
My understanding reconciles the scripture.
You disregard things like John 3:16 and Ephesians 4:5.
If you don't reconcile all scripture, your understanding is flawed.
You also seem to think that every time the word "Baptism" is used, it means "Water".
The word simply means "immersion". As in, "immerse yourself in Jesus Christ".

 

[Magenta]

Are you so sure that the baptism Jesus was referring to is either water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism? For one, Jesus is speaking in the present tense here, not past. So unlikely He is recalling His baptism from the Jordan river, since we both agree the water baptism had already happened to everyone.

I believe Jesus is speaking in figurative language here saying, "Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized" referring to the baptism of sufferings He was going through.

The first verse I quoted, Jesus was speaking in FUTURE tense.

Baptism of suffering? Haven't heard that one before. We are baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

The old man dies.

 

[Runningman]

The first verse I quoted, Jesus was speaking in FUTURE tense.

Baptism of suffering? Haven't heard that one before. We are baptized into His death, burial, and resurrection.

The old man dies.

It’s definitely a baptism of suffering.

Luke 12:50
50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

That’s Jesus’s baptism of suffering. The whole narrative you produced about it being a baptism of the Holy Spirit can’t be accurate.

 

[Magenta]

It’s definitely a baptism of suffering.

Luke 12:50
50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

That’s Jesus’s baptism of suffering. The whole narrative you produced about it being a baptism of the Holy Spirit can’t be accurate.

Are you saying Jesus was telling His disciples they would all be crucified on the cross like He was?

 

[Runningman]

Are you saying Jesus was telling His disciples they would all be crucified on the cross like He was?

Many times Jesus prepared His disciples to face persecution, tribulation, hardships, sufferings, and even death because of Him.

 

[Magenta]

Many times Jesus prepared His disciples to face persecution, tribulation, hardships, sufferings, and even death because of Him.

We're all going to die. You call that a baptism? Just seems odd.

 

[Runningman]

We're all going to die. You call that a baptism? Just seems odd.

That’s what Jesus called it. He also called it a cup a time or two.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Are you saying Jesus was telling His disciples they would all be crucified on the cross like He was?

I think it's more like martyrdom in general. Also referred to as "baptism of blood" by some. Tradition says they all did, except maybe for John; so it's not implausible.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Agreed belief is necessary for baptism.




No problem with that as far as I can tell.



Nicodemus thought it was live birth from a woman, too. Obviously Nicodemus was wrong. Now it's time to hear Jesus.



Sometimes not, but the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus after His water baptism.

Jesus was speaking of a physical birth in reference to Nicodemus's question. For example, verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Sometimes not, but the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus after His water baptism.

Sometimes not? Contadiction then if we are saved by water baptism. In harmony we see commands that call for belief in order to be saved, we see water baptism fail, and we see water baptism after belief.


Acts 19:1-7
English Standard Version
Paul in Ephesus

19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

The Holy Spirit did not come until they Paul laid hands on them in the baptism of Jesus Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

The thief died under the OT. NT believers in the gospel message are required to repent, be water baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost. This began on the Day of Pentecost. These requirements line up with being born of water and Spirit as mentioned in John 3:3-5.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus began on the Day of Pentecost as prophesied by Jesus in Luke 24:47. And reflected throughout scripture.

Please provide scripture confirmation concerning baptism of fire. Thanks.

Are you kidding??? "the thief died under the OT" - this is completely absurd.

The LORD is on the Cross fulifilling OT Prophecy of the NEW COVENANT.

The Thief was SAVED by FAITH in the NEW COVENANT who was on the CROSS next to him.

 

[Magenta]

I think it's more like martyrdom in general. Also referred to as "baptism of blood"
by some. Tradition says they all did, except maybe for John; so it's not implausible.

Of all the times the word baptism is used, how many refer to this death Jesus is facing?

I would say, very very few.

Whereas comparatively speaking, there are a great many more concerning the
baptism we are really talking about here, which some say is by water (as if being
dunked in H20 is going to save anyone), and some say refers to the baptism of fire
and Holy Spirit, as "the greatest of all men" (according to Jesus) proclaimed.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus was speaking of a physical birth in reference to Nicodemus's question. For example, verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

No, He’s refuting Nicodemus’ proposal that a man can go into his mother a second time. So when Jesus said “must be born of water” He was referring to literal water, not embryonic fluid associated with being physically born.

Sometimes not? Contadiction then if we are saved by water baptism. In harmony we see commands that call for belief in order to be saved, we see water baptism fail, and we see water baptism after belief.


Acts 19:1-7
English Standard Version
Paul in Ephesus

19 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

The Holy Spirit did not come until they Paul laid hands on them in the baptism of Jesus Christ.

I’m sorry you see that the Bible has contradictions. I think it’s more likely that you just aren’t understanding the scriptures that say “faith alone saves” and the scriptures that say “baptism saves.”

These two ideas of being saved through faith and baptism can be harmonized, but your interpretation seems to be unable to reconcile the two.

The whole point of this thread, from my perspective, is about showing that water baptism is required to be in the resurrection.