Daniel Chapter two
- Thread starter JLG
- Start date
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I said I agree with you we are in the time of Islam. And when those feet bust Jesus will return, He will set up the millennium kingdom. I don't believe in a rapture; I don't believe that the millennium will be a time of the reunited kingdom of Israel on earth with christians being in Heaven. It is just not biblical. I am open to having an open honest bible based conversation about it.
Ken
Ken
https://www.businessinsider.in/defe...0-strongest-militaries/slidelist/51930339.cms
1) United states
Budget: $601 billion
Active frontline personnel: 1,400,000
Tanks: 8,848
Total aircraft: 13,892
Submarines: 72
2) Russia
Budget: $84.5 billion
Active frontline personnel: 766,055
Tanks: 15,398
Total aircraft: 3,429
Submarines: 55
3) China
Budget: $216 billion
Active frontline personnel: 2,333,000
Tanks: 9,150
Total aircraft: 2,860
Submarines: 67
4) Japan
Budget: $41.6 billion
Active frontline personnel: 247,173
Tanks: 678
Total aircraft: 1,613
Submarines: 16
5) India
Budget: $50 billion
Active frontline personnel: 1,325,000
Tanks: 6,464
Total aircraft: 1,905
Submarines: 15
6) France
Budget: $62.3 billion
Active frontline personnel: 202,761
Tanks: 423
Total aircraft: 1,264
Submarines: 10
7) South Korea
Budget: $62.3 billion
Active frontline personnel: 624,465
Tanks: 2,381
Total aircraft: 1,412
Submarines: 13
8) Italy
Budget: $34 billion
Active frontline personnel: 320,000
Tanks: 586
Total aircraft: 760
Submarines: 6
9) United kingdom
Budget: $60.5 billion
Active frontline personnel: 146,980
Tanks: 407
Total aircraft: 936
Submarines: 10
1) United states
Budget: $601 billion
Active frontline personnel: 1,400,000
Tanks: 8,848
Total aircraft: 13,892
Submarines: 72
2) Russia
Budget: $84.5 billion
Active frontline personnel: 766,055
Tanks: 15,398
Total aircraft: 3,429
Submarines: 55
3) China
Budget: $216 billion
Active frontline personnel: 2,333,000
Tanks: 9,150
Total aircraft: 2,860
Submarines: 67
4) Japan
Budget: $41.6 billion
Active frontline personnel: 247,173
Tanks: 678
Total aircraft: 1,613
Submarines: 16
5) India
Budget: $50 billion
Active frontline personnel: 1,325,000
Tanks: 6,464
Total aircraft: 1,905
Submarines: 15
6) France
Budget: $62.3 billion
Active frontline personnel: 202,761
Tanks: 423
Total aircraft: 1,264
Submarines: 10
7) South Korea
Budget: $62.3 billion
Active frontline personnel: 624,465
Tanks: 2,381
Total aircraft: 1,412
Submarines: 13
8) Italy
Budget: $34 billion
Active frontline personnel: 320,000
Tanks: 586
Total aircraft: 760
Submarines: 6
9) United kingdom
Budget: $60.5 billion
Active frontline personnel: 146,980
Tanks: 407
Total aircraft: 936
Submarines: 10
I come back to the conclusion sent by kenallen mentioning:
- the stone of destiny
- as tradition asserts
- the continuity of the unbroken line of kings reigning over the children of Israel
- human tradition opposes God's word!
- The kings of Israel opposed God, even David got into big troubles!
- The kings of Judah always found a way to do it wrong!
- The Israelites opposed God so many times that God rejected them as a people!
- The kings of Britain were not better!
- They became the head of the Anglican church!
- In Israel it was impossible for a king to be the head of the church!
- the stone of destiny
- as tradition asserts
- the continuity of the unbroken line of kings reigning over the children of Israel
- human tradition opposes God's word!
- The kings of Israel opposed God, even David got into big troubles!
- The kings of Judah always found a way to do it wrong!
- The Israelites opposed God so many times that God rejected them as a people!
- The kings of Britain were not better!
- They became the head of the Anglican church!
- In Israel it was impossible for a king to be the head of the church!
About the islamic confederacy:
Sunni and Shia are divided:
https://www.cfr.org/sunni-shia-divide/#!/
Shia identity is rooted in victimhood over the killing of Husayn, the Prophet Mohammed’s grandson, in the seventh century, and a long history of marginalization by the Sunni majority. Islam’s dominant sect, which roughly 85 percent of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims follow, viewed Shia Islam with suspicion, and extremist Sunnis have portrayed Shias as heretics and apostates.
Shias comprise a majority in Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain, and a plurality in Lebanon, while Sunnis make up the majority of more than forty countries from Morocco to Indonesia.
- Many Islamic countries are opposed and fight against each other!
Sunni and Shia are divided:
https://www.cfr.org/sunni-shia-divide/#!/
Shia identity is rooted in victimhood over the killing of Husayn, the Prophet Mohammed’s grandson, in the seventh century, and a long history of marginalization by the Sunni majority. Islam’s dominant sect, which roughly 85 percent of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims follow, viewed Shia Islam with suspicion, and extremist Sunnis have portrayed Shias as heretics and apostates.
Shias comprise a majority in Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain, and a plurality in Lebanon, while Sunnis make up the majority of more than forty countries from Morocco to Indonesia.
- Many Islamic countries are opposed and fight against each other!
Looking for Daniel
Daniel 2
Daniel then goes in to Arioch, whom the king has appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon, and he says to him: “Do not destroy any wise men of Babylon. Take me in before the king, and I will tell the interpretation to the king.”
- Daniel knows he must act fast!
- it is a question of life or death!
- But he first took the time to thank God!
- It is the most important thing to do for him!
- Then he goes directly to Arioch!
- Thus he shows he cares about all human lives!
- He doesn’t want anyone to be killed!
Daniel 2
Daniel then goes in to Arioch, whom the king has appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon, and he says to him: “Do not destroy any wise men of Babylon. Take me in before the king, and I will tell the interpretation to the king.”
- Daniel knows he must act fast!
- it is a question of life or death!
- But he first took the time to thank God!
- It is the most important thing to do for him!
- Then he goes directly to Arioch!
- Thus he shows he cares about all human lives!
- He doesn’t want anyone to be killed!
Looking for Daniel
Daniel 3
Nebuchadnedzzar makes a statute and he wants everybody to worship it. If they don’t do it, they will be thrown into the burning fierce furnace. But Daniel’s three companions refuse to do it. So the king, in a furious rage, gives them a second chance. But they tell him that if their God wants to save them, he can do it. But if he doesn’t do it, they only worship God and no one else. Then the king becomes so furious that he gives orders to heat the furnace seven times hotter than usual. And Daniel’s three companions are thrown into the burning fiery furnace. The furnace is so hot that the men who throw Daniel’s three companions into the furnace are killed. Then the king becomes afraid because he sees four men in the furnace, they are unharmed and the fourth one looks like a son of the gods. So he tells Daniel’s three companions to go out. They are unhurt. Then he praises their God. Then he promotes them in the province of Babylon.
- Like Daniel, his three companions are faithful men to God and thus excellent examples for us!
- We don’t know anything about Daniel!
- That’s strange because he is one of the most important men of Babylon!
- Nebuchadnezzar is brutal!
- But he can easily change of attitude when something happens!
- Here, Daniel’s three companions are saved by God!
- And he gives them a higher position!
- So they are also blessed because of their faithfulness!
- He doesn’t accept anyone’s disobedience but when somebody does it and survives, he can only recognize it!
- Thus he is pragmatic!
Daniel 3
Nebuchadnedzzar makes a statute and he wants everybody to worship it. If they don’t do it, they will be thrown into the burning fierce furnace. But Daniel’s three companions refuse to do it. So the king, in a furious rage, gives them a second chance. But they tell him that if their God wants to save them, he can do it. But if he doesn’t do it, they only worship God and no one else. Then the king becomes so furious that he gives orders to heat the furnace seven times hotter than usual. And Daniel’s three companions are thrown into the burning fiery furnace. The furnace is so hot that the men who throw Daniel’s three companions into the furnace are killed. Then the king becomes afraid because he sees four men in the furnace, they are unharmed and the fourth one looks like a son of the gods. So he tells Daniel’s three companions to go out. They are unhurt. Then he praises their God. Then he promotes them in the province of Babylon.
- Like Daniel, his three companions are faithful men to God and thus excellent examples for us!
- We don’t know anything about Daniel!
- That’s strange because he is one of the most important men of Babylon!
- Nebuchadnezzar is brutal!
- But he can easily change of attitude when something happens!
- Here, Daniel’s three companions are saved by God!
- And he gives them a higher position!
- So they are also blessed because of their faithfulness!
- He doesn’t accept anyone’s disobedience but when somebody does it and survives, he can only recognize it!
- Thus he is pragmatic!
Looking for Daniel
Daniel 7
Daniel has a vision about the future and the end and he writes it down. And he is afraid of what he sees. His thoughts alarm him greatly, so that he turns pale.
- Daniel has a vision!
- But it is like a nightmare!
- Thus he is afraid!
- And more than that!
- Should we be afraid?
Daniel 7
Daniel has a vision about the future and the end and he writes it down. And he is afraid of what he sees. His thoughts alarm him greatly, so that he turns pale.
- Daniel has a vision!
- But it is like a nightmare!
- Thus he is afraid!
- And more than that!
- Should we be afraid?
I come back to the conclusion sent by kenallen mentioning:
- the stone of destiny
- as tradition asserts
- the continuity of the unbroken line of kings reigning over the children of Israel
- human tradition opposes God's word!
- The kings of Israel opposed God, even David got into big troubles!
- The kings of Judah always found a way to do it wrong!
- The Israelites opposed God so many times that God rejected them as a people!
- The kings of Britain were not better!
- They became the head of the Anglican church!
- In Israel it was impossible for a king to be the head of the church!
- the stone of destiny
- as tradition asserts
- the continuity of the unbroken line of kings reigning over the children of Israel
- human tradition opposes God's word!
- The kings of Israel opposed God, even David got into big troubles!
- The kings of Judah always found a way to do it wrong!
- The Israelites opposed God so many times that God rejected them as a people!
- The kings of Britain were not better!
- They became the head of the Anglican church!
- In Israel it was impossible for a king to be the head of the church!
God and Daniel / Daniel and Go
Daniel 1:
- Daniel is brought to Babylon because he is young without any defect, of good appearance, endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and discernment, and capable of serving in the king’s palace!
- And the more we read the book of Daniel, the more it appears that all this is connected to Daniel’s relationship with God!
- Every aspect of his life has something to do with this relationship!
- No God, No Daniel!
- And the more he learns the more he gets closer to God!
- There is only another way that is getting away from God!
- This relationship evolves perpetually!
- It has to be build up continually!
- Otherwise it goes away!
- There isn’t a third option!
- One way or the other!
- And it is a personal choice!
- Something you have to work at personally or not!
- You can’t take a break otherwise you go the other way!
- BURNING OR FREEZING!
Daniel 1:
- Daniel is brought to Babylon because he is young without any defect, of good appearance, endowed with wisdom, knowledge, and discernment, and capable of serving in the king’s palace!
- And the more we read the book of Daniel, the more it appears that all this is connected to Daniel’s relationship with God!
- Every aspect of his life has something to do with this relationship!
- No God, No Daniel!
- And the more he learns the more he gets closer to God!
- There is only another way that is getting away from God!
- This relationship evolves perpetually!
- It has to be build up continually!
- Otherwise it goes away!
- There isn’t a third option!
- One way or the other!
- And it is a personal choice!
- Something you have to work at personally or not!
- You can’t take a break otherwise you go the other way!
- BURNING OR FREEZING!
God and Daniel / Daniel and God
Daniel 2:
Daniel then goes to his house and informs his companions Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah of the matter. He asks them to pray for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions won’t be destroyed along with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
- That’s another extraordinary situation!
- Daniel has a special relationship to God but he asks his companions to pray God too!
- He could have thought: I don’t need their help!
- I just need to pray God alone and he will tell me the vision!
- No: he has such a humility!
- Moreover, the situation is dangerous!
- He needs the information as soon as possible!
- He knows what to do and gets the best results!
- When dealing with God we learn ORDER because God is a God of Order!
- So we need to think like him not like the people in this old world who are overwhelmed!
- And today the situation is also dangerous: if we don’t react properly we may die and we won’t have a second chance!
- And when we think of all the possibilities we will get to work for God in the new society, it would be a shame to miss them!
Daniel 2:
Daniel then goes to his house and informs his companions Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah of the matter. He asks them to pray for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions won’t be destroyed along with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
- That’s another extraordinary situation!
- Daniel has a special relationship to God but he asks his companions to pray God too!
- He could have thought: I don’t need their help!
- I just need to pray God alone and he will tell me the vision!
- No: he has such a humility!
- Moreover, the situation is dangerous!
- He needs the information as soon as possible!
- He knows what to do and gets the best results!
- When dealing with God we learn ORDER because God is a God of Order!
- So we need to think like him not like the people in this old world who are overwhelmed!
- And today the situation is also dangerous: if we don’t react properly we may die and we won’t have a second chance!
- And when we think of all the possibilities we will get to work for God in the new society, it would be a shame to miss them!
____________________________________________________________________
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died!
____________________________________________________________________
God and Daniel / Daniel and God
Daniel 7:
- First, Daniel has a dream and visions!
- Then he writes down the dream!
- He records a complete account of the matters!
- He is a civil servant!
- He is used to doing things according to a particular procedure!
- Thus he gives all the details!
- Moreover, it comes from God!
- And what he sees is not usual!
- And it is certainly not pleasant!
- His spirit is distressed because the visions frighten him!
- He is the only who receives such visions!
- Even his three companions don’t receive such visions!
- It means Daniel is really precious to God!
- It is a privilege!
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died!
____________________________________________________________________
God and Daniel / Daniel and God
Daniel 7:
- First, Daniel has a dream and visions!
- Then he writes down the dream!
- He records a complete account of the matters!
- He is a civil servant!
- He is used to doing things according to a particular procedure!
- Thus he gives all the details!
- Moreover, it comes from God!
- And what he sees is not usual!
- And it is certainly not pleasant!
- His spirit is distressed because the visions frighten him!
- He is the only who receives such visions!
- Even his three companions don’t receive such visions!
- It means Daniel is really precious to God!
- It is a privilege!
____________________________________________________________________
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 1: And the true God caused the principal court official to show Daniel favor and mercy!
- Faithful: remaining loyal and steadfast!
- Daniel is faithful to God who blesses him!
- He always walks with God!
- God is present in all his life!
- Communicating with God is a necessity!
- Being faithful to God helps him stay a rock!
- Resolute and faithful are deeply connected!
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 1: And the true God caused the principal court official to show Daniel favor and mercy!
- Faithful: remaining loyal and steadfast!
- Daniel is faithful to God who blesses him!
- He always walks with God!
- God is present in all his life!
- Communicating with God is a necessity!
- Being faithful to God helps him stay a rock!
- Resolute and faithful are deeply connected!
____________________________________________________________________
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 2:
He asks Arʹi·och the officer of the king: “Why is there such a harsh order from the king?” Then Arʹi·och informs Daniel about the matter. So Daniel goes in and asked the king to grant him time to tell the interpretation to the king.
- That’s what we call to be resolute !
- He goes straight away to the king !
- He know what to do and he does it !
- He doesn’t lose time !
- RESOLUTE / FAITHFUL / GOOD LISTENER / PROACTIVE / FAITHFUL / FAITHFUL / DISCREET AND CAUTIOUS / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE
- Faithful (3)
- Resolute (2)
- Proactive (2)
- Good listener (1)
- Discreet and cautious (1)
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 2:
He asks Arʹi·och the officer of the king: “Why is there such a harsh order from the king?” Then Arʹi·och informs Daniel about the matter. So Daniel goes in and asked the king to grant him time to tell the interpretation to the king.
- That’s what we call to be resolute !
- He goes straight away to the king !
- He know what to do and he does it !
- He doesn’t lose time !
- RESOLUTE / FAITHFUL / GOOD LISTENER / PROACTIVE / FAITHFUL / FAITHFUL / DISCREET AND CAUTIOUS / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE
- Faithful (3)
- Resolute (2)
- Proactive (2)
- Good listener (1)
- Discreet and cautious (1)
____________________________________________________________________
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 2:
The king then elevates Daniel and gives him many fine gifts, and he makes him the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon. And at Daniel’s request, the king appoints Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego over the administration of the province of Babylon, but Daniel serves in the king’s court.
- Once again Daniel shows himself faithful to God and he is rewarded!
- He becomes the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon!
- And he also is team player because he doesn’t forget his companions who at his request are appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon!
- RESOLUTE / FAITHFUL / GOOD LISTENER / PROACTIVE / FAITHFUL / FAITHFUL / DISCREET AND CAUTIOUS / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE / TEAM PLAYER AND HUMBLE / HUMBLE / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE / HUMBLE / HUMBLE / FAITHFUL AND TEAM PLAYER
- Humble (4)
- Faithful (4)
- Resolute (3)
- Proactive (3)
- Team player (2)
- Good listener (1)
- Discreet and cautious (1)
- Get away from this old world of Chaos and prepare for the New World!
- don’t do like the Israelites who stayed in the old world and died
____________________________________________________________________
A very precious man and a top official
Daniel 2:
The king then elevates Daniel and gives him many fine gifts, and he makes him the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon. And at Daniel’s request, the king appoints Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego over the administration of the province of Babylon, but Daniel serves in the king’s court.
- Once again Daniel shows himself faithful to God and he is rewarded!
- He becomes the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon!
- And he also is team player because he doesn’t forget his companions who at his request are appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon!
- RESOLUTE / FAITHFUL / GOOD LISTENER / PROACTIVE / FAITHFUL / FAITHFUL / DISCREET AND CAUTIOUS / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE / TEAM PLAYER AND HUMBLE / HUMBLE / RESOLUTE AND PROACTIVE / HUMBLE / HUMBLE / FAITHFUL AND TEAM PLAYER
- Humble (4)
- Faithful (4)
- Resolute (3)
- Proactive (3)
- Team player (2)
- Good listener (1)
- Discreet and cautious (1)
Where does it come from?
How does it grow?
Daniel 2
Daniel then went to his house and informed his companions Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah of the matter. He asked them to pray for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions would not be destroyed along with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision at night. So Daniel praised the God of heaven. -
- Daniel had a good education and he was taught God’s word when he was young!
- But he would keep it to maintain and develop it daily!
- Every time he felt the need, he would pray God and in case of extreme emergency, he would ask his companions to pray too!
- And God would tells him about visions and dreams and their interpretations and to nobody else!
- The channel of communication between them was constantly open!
- It was something natural and necessary!
- Like what it should be between parents and children!
- The problem is even there there is usually no more communication!
- So how do you want to develop a strong communication when there is no or little communication between you and your children!
- And the same if children don’t know how to communicate with their parents, how do you want them to learn how to communicate with God!
- We have cellphones and social networks, but when people are in front of each other, they usually don’t communicate anymore!
- How many old people stay alone and don’t communicate anymore!
- Everything seems so superficial in this dying world!
- Even communication is dying!
- Take the example of the communication between God and Jesus!
- There are so many examples!
- But it has to be work out!
- There are doors but if they stay closed, it leads nowhere!
How does it grow?
Daniel 2
Daniel then went to his house and informed his companions Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah of the matter. He asked them to pray for mercy from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions would not be destroyed along with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision at night. So Daniel praised the God of heaven. -
- Daniel had a good education and he was taught God’s word when he was young!
- But he would keep it to maintain and develop it daily!
- Every time he felt the need, he would pray God and in case of extreme emergency, he would ask his companions to pray too!
- And God would tells him about visions and dreams and their interpretations and to nobody else!
- The channel of communication between them was constantly open!
- It was something natural and necessary!
- Like what it should be between parents and children!
- The problem is even there there is usually no more communication!
- So how do you want to develop a strong communication when there is no or little communication between you and your children!
- And the same if children don’t know how to communicate with their parents, how do you want them to learn how to communicate with God!
- We have cellphones and social networks, but when people are in front of each other, they usually don’t communicate anymore!
- How many old people stay alone and don’t communicate anymore!
- Everything seems so superficial in this dying world!
- Even communication is dying!
- Take the example of the communication between God and Jesus!
- There are so many examples!
- But it has to be work out!
- There are doors but if they stay closed, it leads nowhere!
If Daniel had had children, how would he have educated them?
Daniel 2:
- Daniel needs to get Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and its interpretation. So he asks his three companions to pray for mercy from God!
- When he gets the dream and its interpretation he prays God to thank him!
- Then he tells the king!
- And the king elevates Daniel and gives him many gifts and he makes him the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon!
- Here we see the importance for Daniel to pray God and he does it every day whenever possible!
- We can imagine Daniel would pray God with his children and show them how to do it!
- They could see and hear him pray God with his heart!
- They could see and hear him maintaining a strong communication with God!
- He would do it since they were young children!
- Thus he would communicate with them daily about everything!
- They would open their hearts to him!
Daniel 2:
- Daniel needs to get Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and its interpretation. So he asks his three companions to pray for mercy from God!
- When he gets the dream and its interpretation he prays God to thank him!
- Then he tells the king!
- And the king elevates Daniel and gives him many gifts and he makes him the ruler over all the province of Babylon and the chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon!
- Here we see the importance for Daniel to pray God and he does it every day whenever possible!
- We can imagine Daniel would pray God with his children and show them how to do it!
- They could see and hear him pray God with his heart!
- They could see and hear him maintaining a strong communication with God!
- He would do it since they were young children!
- Thus he would communicate with them daily about everything!
- They would open their hearts to him!
If Daniel had friends...
Daniel 2:
- Daniel needs to get Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and its interpretation. So he asks his three companions to pray for mercy from God!
- Spending time on regular basis to develop their mental abilities would also mean praying together using simple but deep prayers coming from the heart!
- No competition but the possibility to develop their communication to God through prayers!
- When people share their ideas, it always opens the way to new ways!
- Two are better than one and three are better than two and…!
- Make progress in a positive way!
- Encourage each other to improve one’s communication!
Daniel 2:
- Daniel needs to get Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and its interpretation. So he asks his three companions to pray for mercy from God!
- Spending time on regular basis to develop their mental abilities would also mean praying together using simple but deep prayers coming from the heart!
- No competition but the possibility to develop their communication to God through prayers!
- When people share their ideas, it always opens the way to new ways!
- Two are better than one and three are better than two and…!
- Make progress in a positive way!
- Encourage each other to improve one’s communication!
If Daniel had a wife…
- First let’s have a look at Jewish tradition!
- We must remember it was a long time ago!
- We must also remember that even in Europe, women have been fighting for their rights!
- And they keep doing it!
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/wifebeating-in-jewish-tradition
Wifebeating in Jewish Tradition
by Naomi Graetz
In Brief
The most useful source to study wifebeating is responsa literature, which includes a variety of attitudes towards the phenomenon. While some sources declare wifebeating unlawful, others justify it under certain circumstances. Some Ashkenazi rabbis considered battering as grounds for forcing a man to give a get. In fifteenth-century Europe, more rabbis approved of wifebeating for the purpose of education. Some rabbis unconditionally condemn wifebeaters and force them to divorce their wives, but they are a minority. Most are intimidated by the halakhic problems of mamzerut. Contemporarily, almost no rabbinic authorities justify wifebeating for the purpose of education, but many still do not allow a forced divorce to free the victim.
- First let’s have a look at Jewish tradition!
- We must remember it was a long time ago!
- We must also remember that even in Europe, women have been fighting for their rights!
- And they keep doing it!
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/wifebeating-in-jewish-tradition
Wifebeating in Jewish Tradition
by Naomi Graetz
In Brief
The most useful source to study wifebeating is responsa literature, which includes a variety of attitudes towards the phenomenon. While some sources declare wifebeating unlawful, others justify it under certain circumstances. Some Ashkenazi rabbis considered battering as grounds for forcing a man to give a get. In fifteenth-century Europe, more rabbis approved of wifebeating for the purpose of education. Some rabbis unconditionally condemn wifebeaters and force them to divorce their wives, but they are a minority. Most are intimidated by the halakhic problems of mamzerut. Contemporarily, almost no rabbinic authorities justify wifebeating for the purpose of education, but many still do not allow a forced divorce to free the victim.
If Daniel had a wife…
Wifebeating as an Educational Tool and as Punishment
In fifteenth-century Europe we find more rabbis who approve of wifebeating for the purpose of education. This approach is illustrated in the collected responsa of Israel Isserlein (Austria, c. 1390–1460). In answer to the question, “Can a man who hears his wife cursing and saying bad things about her mother and father reprove her for this several times? If this does not work, can he then beat her in order to ensure that she does not do this any more?” He answers: “Even though Mordecai [b. Hillel] and R. Simhah wrote that he who beats his wife transgresses the negative precept “not to excess” (pen yosif, Deut. 25:3), and is dealt with very harshly, I disagree with this strict interpretation. I base my interpretation on R. Nahman [ben Jacob, d. c. 320 c.e., Babylonian amora] writing in the name of R. Isaac [one of the earliest known Babylonian tannaim, middle of the second century] who wrote that it was permissible to beat a Canaanite slave woman in one’s possession in order to prevent her from transgressing. He of course should not overdo it or else she would be freed. Anyone who is responsible for educating someone under him, and sees that person transgressing, can beat that person to prevent the transgression. He does not have to be brought to court” (Isserlein, Terumat ha-Deshen, Responsum #218).
R. Joseph b. Ephraim Caro’s (1488–1575) views on wifebeating are not consistent in his works. In Kesef Mishneh (Caro’s commentary on Maimonides’s Mishneh Torah), Caro seems to agree with Maimonides that the wife’s duties are so important that a husband may beat her if she refuses to perform them. However, in Beit Yosef: Even ha-Ezer 74:7–12, Caro refers to R. Jonah ben Abraham Gerondi (Sha’arei ha-Teshuvah) who writes that anyone who beats his wife transgresses two negative commandments. Caro suggests excommunicating the perpetrator so that he not transgress the laws of the Torah and that chastising him is too mild a penalty. To support this position he cites R. Simhah of Speyer and agrees with his predecessor that if the husband is a habitual wifebeater, and bruises her (hovel), the court can even cut off his hand. Thus, in BY 74, Caro makes clear that the wife who flees her abusive husband is not a rebellious wife and the husband must either honor her more than himself or divorce her and pay her the money from her marriage contract. It appears, from the sources he cites here that Caro is totally opposed to wifebeating—for any reason. Yet in Beit Yosef (BY 154) Caro quotes R. Simhah’s responsum in its entirety, which favors forcing the husband who beats his wife to give her a divorce—even through recourse to the civil courts and writes at the end of this source: “One cannot rely on the writings of R. Simhah and others to force the husband to divorce his wife because none of them rely on the famous decisors (poskim).”
His views are further complicated by R. Moses ben Israel Isserles (Rema, 1525 or 1530–1572), the glossator of the Shulhan Arukh. He rules that, although unwarranted wifebeating justifies compelling a husband to divorce his wife “if she is the cause of it, for example, if she curses him or denigrates his father and mother and he scolds her calmly first and it does not help, then it is obvious that he is permitted to beat her and castigate her. And if it is not known who is the cause, the husband is not considered a reliable source when he says that she is the cause and portrays her as a harlot, for all women are presumed to be law-abiding” (Darkei Moshe, Tur, Even ha-Ezer 154:15).
In two glosses to Caro’s Shulhan Arukh, (EH80:15 and EH154:3), Isserles relates to whether wifebeating is ever justified as a form of punishment. In EH154:3, which is a discussion of whether one can force a recalcitrant husband (who also beats his wife) to give her a divorce, Isserles returns again to the issue of the wife as cause of the beating: “If she curses him without reason, or puts down his father or mother and he reproves her with words and she does not listen to him, some say that it is permissible to beat her. Some say that it is forbidden even to beat a bad wife, but the first opinion is the correct one.” What this means is that, although Isserles has two choices, he chooses to follow the first opinion, that it is permissible to beat a “bad” wife. Further on in this gloss, Isserles writes that “if she curses him with no reason, he divorces her without paying her the money stipulated in the marriage contract.”
In his commentary on the Talmud, R. Solomon ben Jehiel Luria (Poland, c. 1510–1574) refers to Maimonides and Isserlein in a discussion about punishing a “bad” wife. Luria goes further than Isserlein did in Terumat ha-Deshen #218, when he writes: “A man may hit his wife when she curses her father and mother, because she transgresses the law. ... There is no need to bring her to the court, as is so in the case of the Jewish slave. And he can beat her for other reasons as well—whenever she transgresses the laws of the Torah. He can beat her until she dies [until her soul departs—ad she-teze nafshah], even for transgressing a minor negative prohibition. Of course, he shouldn’t hasten to beat her. He should warn her first. He can only beat her if she doesn’t heed his warning” (Yam shel Shelomo, Bava Kamma, Third Chapter, 20b #9).
Wifebeating as an Educational Tool and as Punishment
In fifteenth-century Europe we find more rabbis who approve of wifebeating for the purpose of education. This approach is illustrated in the collected responsa of Israel Isserlein (Austria, c. 1390–1460). In answer to the question, “Can a man who hears his wife cursing and saying bad things about her mother and father reprove her for this several times? If this does not work, can he then beat her in order to ensure that she does not do this any more?” He answers: “Even though Mordecai [b. Hillel] and R. Simhah wrote that he who beats his wife transgresses the negative precept “not to excess” (pen yosif, Deut. 25:3), and is dealt with very harshly, I disagree with this strict interpretation. I base my interpretation on R. Nahman [ben Jacob, d. c. 320 c.e., Babylonian amora] writing in the name of R. Isaac [one of the earliest known Babylonian tannaim, middle of the second century] who wrote that it was permissible to beat a Canaanite slave woman in one’s possession in order to prevent her from transgressing. He of course should not overdo it or else she would be freed. Anyone who is responsible for educating someone under him, and sees that person transgressing, can beat that person to prevent the transgression. He does not have to be brought to court” (Isserlein, Terumat ha-Deshen, Responsum #218).
R. Joseph b. Ephraim Caro’s (1488–1575) views on wifebeating are not consistent in his works. In Kesef Mishneh (Caro’s commentary on Maimonides’s Mishneh Torah), Caro seems to agree with Maimonides that the wife’s duties are so important that a husband may beat her if she refuses to perform them. However, in Beit Yosef: Even ha-Ezer 74:7–12, Caro refers to R. Jonah ben Abraham Gerondi (Sha’arei ha-Teshuvah) who writes that anyone who beats his wife transgresses two negative commandments. Caro suggests excommunicating the perpetrator so that he not transgress the laws of the Torah and that chastising him is too mild a penalty. To support this position he cites R. Simhah of Speyer and agrees with his predecessor that if the husband is a habitual wifebeater, and bruises her (hovel), the court can even cut off his hand. Thus, in BY 74, Caro makes clear that the wife who flees her abusive husband is not a rebellious wife and the husband must either honor her more than himself or divorce her and pay her the money from her marriage contract. It appears, from the sources he cites here that Caro is totally opposed to wifebeating—for any reason. Yet in Beit Yosef (BY 154) Caro quotes R. Simhah’s responsum in its entirety, which favors forcing the husband who beats his wife to give her a divorce—even through recourse to the civil courts and writes at the end of this source: “One cannot rely on the writings of R. Simhah and others to force the husband to divorce his wife because none of them rely on the famous decisors (poskim).”
His views are further complicated by R. Moses ben Israel Isserles (Rema, 1525 or 1530–1572), the glossator of the Shulhan Arukh. He rules that, although unwarranted wifebeating justifies compelling a husband to divorce his wife “if she is the cause of it, for example, if she curses him or denigrates his father and mother and he scolds her calmly first and it does not help, then it is obvious that he is permitted to beat her and castigate her. And if it is not known who is the cause, the husband is not considered a reliable source when he says that she is the cause and portrays her as a harlot, for all women are presumed to be law-abiding” (Darkei Moshe, Tur, Even ha-Ezer 154:15).
In two glosses to Caro’s Shulhan Arukh, (EH80:15 and EH154:3), Isserles relates to whether wifebeating is ever justified as a form of punishment. In EH154:3, which is a discussion of whether one can force a recalcitrant husband (who also beats his wife) to give her a divorce, Isserles returns again to the issue of the wife as cause of the beating: “If she curses him without reason, or puts down his father or mother and he reproves her with words and she does not listen to him, some say that it is permissible to beat her. Some say that it is forbidden even to beat a bad wife, but the first opinion is the correct one.” What this means is that, although Isserles has two choices, he chooses to follow the first opinion, that it is permissible to beat a “bad” wife. Further on in this gloss, Isserles writes that “if she curses him with no reason, he divorces her without paying her the money stipulated in the marriage contract.”
In his commentary on the Talmud, R. Solomon ben Jehiel Luria (Poland, c. 1510–1574) refers to Maimonides and Isserlein in a discussion about punishing a “bad” wife. Luria goes further than Isserlein did in Terumat ha-Deshen #218, when he writes: “A man may hit his wife when she curses her father and mother, because she transgresses the law. ... There is no need to bring her to the court, as is so in the case of the Jewish slave. And he can beat her for other reasons as well—whenever she transgresses the laws of the Torah. He can beat her until she dies [until her soul departs—ad she-teze nafshah], even for transgressing a minor negative prohibition. Of course, he shouldn’t hasten to beat her. He should warn her first. He can only beat her if she doesn’t heed his warning” (Yam shel Shelomo, Bava Kamma, Third Chapter, 20b #9).