Election and predestination.

[Iconoclast]

I assume you are shouting at me. Why are you shouting at me? I shared what a Greek lexicon said about "foreknowledge". You either accept it or not.

Of course God knows everyone before they were born. In fact, God knew every human being "before the foundation of the earth".

What does that prove? That God chooses who will believe? No, it doesn't.

Please show me the verse that says God chooses who will believe. That is merely a construct, without any Scriptural support.

God foreknew the elect before creation;

2 Timothy 1:9

King James Version



9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This is not given to everyone

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

God is not the author of sin.
There is no conundrum at all.
Whom He did foreknow....is the elect children the Father has given to the Son.
They alone are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
Very simple.

I will assume that this a calvinist response.
I will address only the author of sin denial here. Will address the others in due time after this is fully explored.

Sorry my institutes for dummies is missing. Going to have to use secondary sources.
https://atheologyintension.com/2013/03/21/2376/#_ftn2

Quotes from calvin
Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.[2]

The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.[3]

[2] John Calvin, Inst. I.xviii.l. 1559 edition. See A.N.S. Lane, Did Calvin Believe in Freewill? Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[3] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (tr. J. K. S. Reid) (London, 1961)175f. (OC 8.358) See A.N.S. Lane, Did Calvin Believe in Freewill? Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

So if I, a reprobate, rapes and kills a child, who is ultimately responsible according to you the calvinist?

 

[Iconoclast]

I will assume that this a calvinist response.
I will address only the author of sin denial here. Will address the others in due time after this is fully explored.

Sorry my institutes for dummies is missing. Going to have to use secondary sources.
https://atheologyintension.com/2013/03/21/2376/#_ftn2

Quotes from calvin
Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.[2]

The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.[3]

[2] John Calvin, Inst. I.xviii.l. 1559 edition. See A.N.S. Lane, Did Calvin Believe in Freewill? Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[3] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (tr. J. K. S. Reid) (London, 1961)175f. (OC 8.358) See A.N.S. Lane, Did Calvin Believe in Freewill? Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

So if I, a reprobate, rapes and kills a child, who is ultimately responsible according to you the calvinist?

Men are fully responsible for their sins;
from the 1689 confession of faith;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[Iconoclast]

Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered” i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God “foreknew” the acts of certain ones, viz., their “repenting and believing,” and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He didknow from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s “foreknowledge.” The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons ; then let us “hold fast the form of sound words” ( 2 Timothy 1:13).

Another thing to which we desire to call particular attention is that the first two passages quoted above show plainly and teach implicitly that God’s “foreknowledge” is not causative , that instead, something else lies behind, precedes it, and that something is His own sovereign decree . Christ was “delivered by the (1) determinate counsel and (2) foreknowledge of God.” ( Acts 2:23).

His “counsel” or decree was the ground of His foreknowledge. So again in Romans 8:29. That verse opens with the word “for,” which tells us to look back to what immediately precedes. What, then, does the previous verse say? This, “all things worktogether for good to them...who are the called according to His purpose.” Thus God’s foreknowledge is based upon His purpose or decree (see Psalm 2:7).

God foreknows what will be because He has decreed what shall be . It is therefore a reversing of the order of Scripture, a putting of the cart before the horse, to affirm that God elects because He foreknows people. The truth is, He “foreknows” because He has elected . This removes the ground or cause of election from outside the creature, and places it in God’s own sovereign will. God purposed in Himself to elect a certain people, not because of anything good in them or from them, either actual or foreseen, but solely out of His own mere pleasure. As to why He chose the ones He did, we do not know, and can only say, “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” The plain truth of Romans 8:29 is that God, before the foundation of the world, singled out certain sinners and appointed them unto salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13). This is clear from the concluding words of the verse: “Predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son,” etc. God did not predestinate those whom He foreknew were “conformed,” but, on the contrary, those whom He “foreknew” (i.e., loved and elected) He predestinated to be conformed. Their conformity to Christ is not the cause, but the effect of God’s foreknowledge and predestination.

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift ( Ephesians 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for “boasting,” which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are confusing two ideas in a way the OP. does not.
Two issues, God's omniscience, and God's foreknowledge.

From the author of the OP.
Omniscience is from the Latin omnis = “all” combined with scientia = “knowledge” the combination meaning to know all or to have perfect knowledge.

God’s omniscience is His knowledge of all things including actual and possible, past, present, and future (foreknowledge).

God is all knowing, and His knowledge is in no way restricted by temporal considerations. He knows and sees the past, the present, and the future with equal clarity and absolute certainty. To Him, all is the present.

God knows all things perfectly (Ps. 147:5; Job 37:16; 1 John 3:20), sees and hears everything (Ex 3:7; 2Chr 16:9; Ps 34:15; 102:19, 20; Pr 5:21; 15:3; Jer. 16:16), knows from all eternity the entire plan of the ages and the part of every man in that plan (Isa. 46:9, 10, 11; 48:3, 4, 5, 6, 7; Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12).

God has perfect knowledge of each individual person and of all his ways (Ps. 33:13, 14, 15; 139:1-16; Pr. 5:21), his words (Ps. 139:4; Matt. 12:35, 36, 37), his thoughts (1Chr 28:9; Ps. 94:11; 139:1, 2; Mt. 9:4), his afflictions and trials (Ge 21:17, 18, 19; 1Cor. 10:13; Rev. 2:9, 10, 13) and his future actions and final state (Gen. 18:19; Ex. 3:19; Isa. 44:28-45:5; Matt. 25:31, 32, 33, 34, 41; Acts 27:22, 23, 24, 25).

God’s omniscience means that nothing anyone does escapes the knowledge of God and that one day we will be called to give an account at the bar of God for God will deal with each according to the truth of his life (Ro 2:2, 3, 6; 14:10, 11, 12). For more information on the various judgments, see The Doctrine of the Judgments.

God's omniscience gives us confidence in prayer knowing that He will not lose our prayers and that He always knows the best answer, even knowing our needs before we ask (Matt. 6:31, 32, 33, 34; Isa. 65:24).

Jonathan Edwards in his sermon "Man Naturally God's Enemy" observed that all men are naturally God's enemies because of five things: God's holiness, because we are not holy; God's omniscience, because he knows we are not holy; God's omnipotence, because this offends our desire for autonomy; God's mercy, because it is a holy mercy; and God's immutability (unchangeableness), because God will never be other than he is in these "offensive" attributes.


Being God knows every possible thing goes without saying, Foreknowledge as used in the bible is of persons, watch again;
29 For whom he did foreknow,
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

whom, ,whom, them,whom, them,whom ,them...persons, not what they did, but them.

From post #2

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God“foreknew” the acts of certain ones, viz., their “repenting and believing,” and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever.


Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God.

Truly, He didknow from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s “foreknowledge.” The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons ; then let us “hold fast the form of sound words” ( 2 Tim. 1:13).

 

[Iconoclast]

From A.W.Pink;

When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor , denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. “I know thee by name” ( Exo.33:17). “Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you” ( Deut. 9:24). “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” ( Jer. 1:5). “They have made princes and I knew it not ”( Hosea 8:4). “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” ( Amos 3:2).

In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed .

In like manner, the word “know” is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. “Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you” ( Matt. 7:23). “I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine” ( John 10:14). “If any man love God, the same is known of Him” ( 1 Cor. 8:3). “The Lord knoweth them that are His” ( 2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word “foreknowledge” as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form “to know.” If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons . It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, “Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Personcrucified: “Him (Christ) being delivered by,” etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” etc.

Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view. “God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew” ( Rom. 11:2).

Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Pet. 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered” i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

see pt2;

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I will stick with the predestination concept for now.

It is right there in your confessions.

Men are fully responsible for their sins;
from the 1689 confession of faith;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

>>>God predestines all things

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

>>>But despite that God is not responsible...

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.

>>>Free will compatibilism? I will trust ascriptions of your critics

Here is a calvin quote
https://goodnewsapologetics.com/cha...l-reasoning-moral-intuition-and-common-sense/

"How it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author or approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance.I daily so meditate on these mysteries of His judgments that curiosity to know anything more does not attract me.
>>>To paraphrase, God is to blame but is not. Why? Dunno.

Here is a succinct summary of the illogic of a calvinist.
"So what does Calvin do? Rather than attend to what his logical reasoning and moral intuitions are shouting to him about the incoherence of his determinism, he rationalizes that his doctrine is so much excelling the insight of the human mind that he must confess ignorance in this matter. That God is the author and approver of transgression amounts to a secret. That secret is so hidden that it is beyond the insight of the human mind. And since it is beyond human understanding Calvin is not ashamed to confess ignorance.

It is amazing that the entire theology is based on "I dunno". Saying this is beyond the comprehension of man, then I point you to Job 38-42. Job just professed his innocence a little too vehemently thinking he knew God's intent. You are saying God is the Logical Progenitor of Sin.

So once again, as a reprobate predestined as such by my Maker, having raped and killed a child, who is ultimately/logically responsible?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Foreknowledge and omniscience are not the same thing.

Close enough.

You are conflating two ideas and not following the biblical usage....
The root word to 'KNOW" IS AN INTIMATE TERM IN SCRIPTURE

Root words don't always apply to a given word. Sometimes, but not very time.

Adam "knew Eve and she conceived, Adam knew eve again and she conceived////
Did he forget who she was?

No.

Joseph knew not mary until after the birth of Jesus, do you understand it?

And, foreknowledge has no relation to sex. So you can quit using verses about sex to try to make your point.

What you seem to not want to believe is that God has always known (omniscience) who would respond to the gospel message and become a child of God. So, yes, I AGREE that there is a sense of intimate or personal knowledge in "foreknowledge".

 

[FreeGrace2]

God foreknew the elect before creation;

2 Timothy 1:9

King James Version
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

This is not given to everyone

Right. Only to those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21.

 

[FreeGrace2]

From A.W.Pink;

Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.

You cannot respond to A.W.Pink.
It would totally expose that you have no truth.
We already know this.
You are better off trying to respond then welcome the correction that the brothers will offer to you.

 

[kenallen]

This subject has been covered a lot. The Bible clearly states that God chose (the elect) and predestined those He chose to be saved. However, the question remains, on what basis did God save the elect?

The conundrum revolves around God's declared will. It states clearly that God wants all mankind to be saved:

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance."

If God predestines certain people that He has chosen to be saved, how come He did not simply elect everyone? That would ensure that no one perished. The reality is that many do not repent and do indeed perish.

The answer is found in Romans 8:29

"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers."

God knew beforehand who would accept His Son. That is the basis for election and predestination. God is not unfair or unjust. God is love. Even though He knows who will reject the Son, He requires that the gospel be preached to all mankind. No one will stand before God claiming that they have been hard done by. Lord Jesus chose Judas, knowing that the false apostle would betray Him. Even at the last, Lord Jesus called Judas "friend".

The elect are those that stood with God back in the first earth age when Satan was the anointer cherub that protected the mercy seat.He got proud and wanted to set in that seat instead of protecting it.
Ezekiel 28
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
I want to say they are not the only ones that will be saved. God said who so ever will come unto Me shall be saved. He is long suffering wanting no one to parish but come to repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's enough to stop right here. That guy wrote a book called "The Sovereignty of God". His chapter on free will was a total farce. I read that book way back which was before I knew how to study the Bible, and I could STILL refute his pathetic arguments against free will.

You cannot respond to A.W.Pink.

Hm. Just did.

It would totally expose that you have no truth.

Didn't you read what I wrote?

We already know this.

No, rather you think you "already know".

You are better off trying to respond then welcome the correction that the brothers will offer to you.

My reformed brothers have nothing to correct me for. Neither do my arminian brothers.

Do you want to prove that man has no free will from the Bible? Please be my guest.

 

[crossnote]

Question: When does God know you? God has to know you as a son before he predestines you.

Ephesians 1:4 (NASB) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

 

[crossnote]

Do you want to prove that man has no free will from the Bible? Please be my guest.

(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Being a slave to satan, the flesh and the world seems a bit tough to exercise so called 'free will'.

 

[John146]

(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Eph 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Being a slave to satan, the flesh and the world seems a bit tough to exercise so called 'free will'.

You were never dead in trespasses and sin if God chose you from the foundation of the world. Also, If that is true, you were never a child of wrath…ever.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

It is laziness on your part not to search out the biblical meaning and obey it.
Tell us how you studied it out?

There is no point to talking about whether pigs have gossamer or leathery wings when you are still not convinced pigs can fly.
Reject the calvinist incoherence, return to the scriptures.

 

[DavidTree]

Very true.


Having done a thorough search through the NT, I know there aren't any verses that say this. Rather, in every verse that gives the purpose for being chosen, is about service. Every time.

Several examples follow. Although there are over 2 pages of verses that support that election is for service.

1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are,

The red words state who the chosen are.
The blue words state the purpose for being chosen.

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Red words are who God chose; in this case the "us" refers to those who believe, as v.19 says that specficially.
Blue words are the purpose for which believers have been chosen.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Here, we see Jesus saying that He chose ALL 12, even though one was a devil. John added a bit of commentary in v.71 what Judas had been chosen for; betrayal, which fulfilled prophesy.

I have many more verses.


Not a fair question. God chooses both the saved as well as the unsaved for His purposes. We see this in God's choosing the people or nation of Israel. In no way can anyone argue that the entire nation of Jews in the OT were saved.


This "conundrum" is resolved when one knows that election isn't about being chosen for salvation.


But God never did "predestine certain people to be saved", unless you are willing to accept the truth that God has chosen all believers to be saved. That would be the only way to explain election to salvation. All believers, the "certain people" have been chosen for salvation.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

This is a choice. God chose to "save those who believe".

And this election to save those who believe is definitely NOT unconditional, as the "U" in TULIP states. Salvation is conditioned upon faith in Jesus Christ.


And the reason is that God created mankind with a conscience by which to evaluate data and make decisions. Doesn't mean every decision is good or wise. But man is free to make his own decisions.


This verse simply states that God has predestined those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of His Son. This isn't about salvation at all. It's about spiritual growth in the power of the Holy Spirit.


Exactly. This is why God could predestine all believers to be saved. 1 Cor 1:21


I find this to be a real conundrum. If God chose unconditionally to save some, then there would be no reason to preach the gospel to everyone. In fact, telling the gospel to someone (even though we can't know who God chose for salvation unconditionally, if that were true) would be a straight up LIE. 1 Cor 15:1-4 shows clearly that Paul preached to everyone that "Christ died for our (he means everyone in earshot) sins".


Rather, if the truth were that God simply didn't choose unconditionally some people for salvation, then those He didn't choose WOULD HAVE A LEGITIMATE EXCUSE for ending up in hell.

Since everyone is a sinner and deserves the lake of fire, this poor unchosen person could legitimately say that he is in hell only because God didn't choose him, like God chose those who went to heaven.


And this proves that biblical election isn't to salvation.

I have THREE for you that overrides all:

#1 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Romans ch8

#2 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.” - Romans ch11


#3 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Romans ch9

 

[DavidTree]

You were never dead in trespasses and sin if God chose you from the foundation of the world. Also, If that is true, you were never a child of wrath…ever.

How do you come to this conclusion???

 

[crossnote]

You were never dead in trespasses and sin if God chose you from the foundation of the world. Also, If that is true, you were never a child of wrath…ever.

Scripture clearly says otherwise…

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.