The sin of refusing sex

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P

Polar

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Let's not forget that Paul addressed these same Christians as being "carnal" while rebuking them for such things as allowing a man to have his father's wife and for behaving like gluttons and drunkards at the communion table. In other words, they were hardly the blueprint for Christianity themselves.

Again, some of the stipulations that Paul gave to these Corinthians was hardly God's best or true desire for his people, so let's not take a stipulation and make it the rule, okay?

Anyhow, before I got married, I was celibate for approximately 15 years, and I've been celibate now for a few years since my divorce.

It might surprise you to hear that I don't walk around with my tongue hanging out of my mouth while lusting after every woman that walks by.

Seriously, are there any Christians who have the fruit of temperance actively working in their lives?

Are there any Christians who see PEOPLE as PEOPLE, and NOT just as objects of selfish sexual pleasures?

Maybe I'm from another planet or something, but I actually look for godly qualities in a woman, and that's what truly "turns me on".

Anyhow, I should be sleeping right now, so good night.
Yes there are Christians who do not trip over their tongue when window shopping for someone to have sex with. My husband sounds somewhat like you. He prayed for a very specific type of wife and guess who fit the bill? He was celibate for a number of years after his divorce and we have now been married going on 23 years. He's a little older than I am but that is great because I do not care for little boy men who think the world could not get along without them, or women for that matter.

I actually did post that I see people as people some pages back and that was met with negativity. God help us if we think all we are is physical beings. There is that scripture that states we are neither male nor female in Christ, but I am not even referring to that when I say we are people. It seems obvious to me.

Temperance, self-control, should be a mark of the Christian. It seems rare these days.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5: 22-23
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
You surly are tenacious. I'll give you that.
As are you. Maybe that's part of the issue here


Tell you what, Live4Him3 is doing a much better job of explaining it than I did and you seem to not address him with telling him but but this thread is just about refusing sex is a sin. (actually insisting and insisting might be considered one too. Some husbands, yes so called Christian husbands, force themselves on their wife. That is not kind or loving.)
I already said that. But no, I don't think a Christian man would rape his wife. As was said multiple times, we are talking about a healthy Christian marriage and meeting each others needs.



I did bring up the fact that marriage is compared to Christ's relationship with us yesterday and he did too. I have also said quite a few times that marriage is far more than rendering sex.
Well I think our idea of sex is different. When I keep saying a healthy Christian marriage I have a picture in my mind of what that means and what sex means within that marriage. When I say a "healthy marriage" I assume you understand exactly what that entails. It means two people who are dedicated to God, come together as one. Love is assumed in a healthy marriage, no? By healthy I also mean no one is ill, no one has physical issues where they cannot have sex. Also you can assume sex isn't lustful in a healthy Christian marriage. I would think that everyone would understand this, and it was all talked about earlier in the thread. So when you make a comment like "marriage is "far" more than "rendering sex" I'm thinking why would you make a comment like that? Sex is important in a marriage, but I get the feeling you don't enjoy sex, or you think it shouldn't be important in a marriage. It's like a duty that has to be done sometimes. If I'm wrong, tell where I'm taking you wrong.


Yes yes I know. Christian marriage and all that which actually should not leave out the spiritual aspect since sex is not just a physical act.
Right, the two become one, through the physical act of sex. We're all adults here. You seem to be getting hung up on the physical part and I don't understand why. If you love your spouse you want to be physical with them. And that's exactly who you should be physical with. If you leave your partner wanting the Bible says that can cause them to sin. So meet each others needs. If you're older and your hubby is and you're not rockin' it like you use to, that's fine. You're both at the same pace, you're looking after each others needs. But this idea that enjoying sex with your spouse is somehow about force or lust is not right. God created us to want our spouse in that way, and there is nothing wrong, forced, dirty, about it. If I have read any of you wrong, let me know where I have. I keep arguing back because that is the vibe I'm getting from some people here.

In case you all still don't understand where I'm coming from, let me be more clear. I live not far from a place called "Shaker Village". Some may know the history, some may not. They were a religious sect. They believed in hard work, they lived and worked within their community that they built themselves. They had other beliefs but I won't go into that. My main point here is that if you joined the Shakers as a couple, you were no longer married. You can go to a large building in the village and you will see two sets of stairs, one for men and one for women. You lived separate lives. There was no sex, no sex if you were married, at all. So now you can go there today and see their beautiful buildings and things they made, but you won't see a Shaker. Three guesses as to why. So here's my point, in a healthy Christian marriage it is wrong to forbid sex, that is what cults do. Sex is a healthy outcome of a Christian marriage. Now, I believe I have made myself abundantly clear. If I have misunderstood any of you, after you have read this post, then show me where. Sex is an important part of a marriage, it is not the only thing, but it is not less than any other issue. Too many wives wondering why their husband is addicted to porn. Now he is wrong to turn to that, dead wrong, but that is what the Bible means about causing the other spouse to turn away. Meet each others needs, that's what a loving, healthy, Christian couple should do. Amen or ouch?
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Yes there are Christians who do not trip over their tongue when window shopping for someone to have sex with.
So here's my point again. You seem to think there is something wrong with men enjoying sex with their wife. I don't see any where where you have mentioned sex in a positive light. You always mention it in a way where the man is lustful and the wife is put upon. Do you think it's wrong for a man to enjoy and anticipate sex from his wife? Is it wrong for him to be excited and aroused. Yes, I'm going there. Because that is how God created a man, to want his wife. And you seem to be saying there is something wrong with that. Have you ever read Song of Solomon?
 
P

Polar

Guest
Kayla you and I are worlds apart in how we think. Did you have a very rigid, performance oriented upbringing? Was love conditional on how good a girl you were?

God's love is not like that and whether or not you care to acknowledge it, sex is as much a spiritual act as physical. Perhaps it is actually you that cannot agree with the scripture and therefore do not want or wish to go beyond the physical. Did you ever love someone so much that it actually made you sick inside if you would think you would ever not be with them forever? Yeah I don't think so.

We are never going to agree and I find your little face on my last post petty and obviously you are not willing nor will you consider anything but what you agree and sounds more like performance than love to me. You badgered and insulted me yesterday over and over and I am sorry that you are so rigid in what you want to see that anything else must be immediately rejected.

I answered you and you do not acknowledge that fact. I don't owe you an explanation and yet I gave you one. Insult me some more and tell me I don't believe the Bible or perhaps I don't give my husband all the sex you think he should have. The thought of being married to someone who thinks I owe him sex, is alien to me and it seems that is how you interpret scripture. We do not all live in that world though.

I cannot live in a world that you apparently thrive in and my world is beyond your reach.

You should just move on. Truly, no point in trying to explain myself to you as you once again have illustrated with your usual dismissive way to me, as though you were anyone's better. I see people. My husband is a person to me and as such, he is as God made him or allowed him to be. Sex is a part of it all, along with desire, but you know, when he comes home, he likes to talk about his day. He is too tired to jump my bones and he goes to bed earlier than I do, but there are 24 hours in a day after all, to get that all important sex in.

The things I could tell you, you would judge as it seems you keep a club handy for people who see more than you do and who live beyond your comprehension. Think what you want and that goes for the rest of people in here behaving in an uncharitable way because you have a box for a brain.

I find you very abrasive and I don't know what is going on in your life, but you sound angry and not happy. I value the peace of God He gives to us and I know beyond a shadow of doubt, that I really do not need to continue to appease you because really, that seems to be what you want and I don't believe that is of God. I do not follow people or think I need to appease anyone. That is not living to me, so don't hold your breath on whether or not I get back to you again.

And I don't care about your points at this point. It is regrettable that that is so, but you seem unaware of how you bully and reject anyone's POV but your own. I accept how you think and I will not try to help you see more.

with love and a good dose of patience at this point

one of God's children who is as God made her
 
P

Polar

Guest
Yes I did see that you changed your reaction on my post.

Another reason I do not care to respond to you anymore. That was not an honest move on your part.

I am going to hit the ignore button just for you. Oh and for that cartoon person who obviously lives without love.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,176
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Yes I did see that you changed your reaction on my post.

Another reason I do not care to respond to you anymore. That was not an honest move on your part.

I am going to hit the ignore button just for you. Oh and for that cartoon person who obviously lives without love.
I really believe because of your focus on dysfunctional relationships you have no idea what a truly functional relationship looks like....you have no ability to live inside of one. Such a pity.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Kayla you and I are worlds apart in how we think. Did you have a very rigid, performance oriented upbringing? Was love conditional on how good a girl you were?
Ok, I'm not gonna take offense to that. I was raised in a normal Christian home, my parents are still married today. I don't see how my upbringing gwas any different than any of my friends. I wasn't spoiled but neither was I abused.



God's love is not like that and whether or not you care to acknowledge it, sex is as much a spiritual act as physical.
But I did acknowledge it. You leave your parents, the two become one. But you seem to be hung up on the physical part. They both go hand in hand, both are equally important. If it was just physical you'd call in your swinging neighbors to join. I have never denied sex was spiritual, but it is also physical. Why does that bother you?

Perhaps it is actually you that cannot agree with the scripture and therefore do not want or wish to go beyond the physical. Did you ever love someone so much that it actually made you sick inside if you would think you would ever not be with them forever? Yeah I don't think so.
Now this is where we get personal. I could say some things in anger right now that would get me booted from this forum in an instant. How dare you!!? I waited until I was in my 40s before God brought my husband into my life. I have spent the last two years caring for my mother who I nearly lost to cancer. And literally the only one there for me, other than God himself, was my husband. He prayed me through, he encouraged me on the phone with me sitting in the emergency room with my mother literally bleeding to death. She survived that and began to gain her health then was struck down, unable to walk. Again my husband was there as my only support. Then either from stress or age my father began losing his memory. I am unable to drive because my own health issues. So that left me having to go to every doctors appt. to be sure they didn't get lost and get her on time to every appt. I have been to 15 appts. since fall with more ahead. That has my husband coming home from a hard days work to make his own meals and keep the house. Not one complaint,ever, nothing but support and love for my mother.



We are never going to agree and I find your little face on my last post petty and obviously you are not willing nor will you consider anything but what you agree and sounds more like performance than love to me.
Wow, that's a Christlike spirit right there.



sounds more like performance than love to me.
I changed my answer here, which I admit was angry. But I read below and you've finally been honest, by mistake, of what the issue is and why you're so angry with me.

You badgered and insulted me yesterday over and over and I am sorry that you are so rigid in what you want to see that anything else must be immediately rejected.
You could have blocked me, you said you wouldn't answer but kept coming back. No one is badgering you, you're free to leave, you're free to not answer or ignore. You didn't.



I answered you and you do not acknowledge that fact. I don't owe you an explanation and yet I gave you one.
No, you don't, and yet you answer time and again. So all I can guess is you like to play the victim.


Insult me some more and tell me I don't believe the Bible
That was never said.


or perhaps I don't give my husband all the sex you think he should have.
Don't care if you do. Had nothing to do with the point.



The thought of being married to someone who thinks I owe him sex, is alien to me and it seems that is how you interpret scripture. We do not all live in that world though.
And this right here is the issue, and why you've used your tongue to cut me in half. This is why you are so angry and keep coming back at me. "The thought of being married to someone who thinks I owe him sex," Right there is the heart of it for you. You have something in your craw. No one here has said that. That is YOUR hang up alone!! How often you have sex, or never have sex is your business, not one person here cares. Not one!! But your attitude right there " someone who thinks I owe him sex," is wrong. And that is why you have a hate on for me so much that you can't stand the face of a puppy!! smh Sex is physical, you can like that or lump it. And there is nothing wrong with that!! And there is nothing wrong with an older couple who have less sex, which I also said. You said you didn't want to get personal, but your utter anger here shows where the issue lies.



I see people. My husband is a person to me and as such, he is as God made him or allowed him to be. Sex is a part of it all, along with desire, but you know, when he comes home, he likes to talk about his day. He is too tired to jump my bones and he goes to bed earlier than I do, but there are 24 hours in a day after all, to get that all important sex in.
And it just keeps getting clearer... you keep revealing your true thoughts. smh




The things I could tell you, you would judge as it seems you keep a club handy for people who see more than you do and who live beyond your comprehension.
No one is judging you. If you don't like sex, or like minimal sex and you and your partner have an understanding, that is private, and you should have kept it private. In fact you're so hung up on this subject you should have stayed out of it all together.



Think what you want and that goes for the rest of people in here behaving in an uncharitable way because you have a box for a brain.
People can read, I hardly think you have been charitable in your responses. Especially here. All because you had to thrash around like a bull in a china shop. Had I not wanted my sexual life brought up, I would have stayed out of this thread. Your attitude is wrong and you know it, that's why you keep answering back.



I find you very abrasive and I don't know what is going on in your life, but you sound angry and not happy.
No you don't, you don't at all. I touched a nerve, you tried to hide it and now you've made it clear.



I value the peace of God He gives to us and I know beyond a shadow of doubt, that I really do not need to continue to appease you because really, that seems to be what you want and I don't believe that is of God. I do not follow people or think I need to appease anyone. That is not living to me, so don't hold your breath on whether or not I get back to you again.
And I don't care about your points at this point. It is regrettable that that is so, but you seem unaware of how you bully and reject anyone's POV but your own. I accept how you think and I will not try to help you see more.
No, this is all baloney. Again, you've made it clear what the issue is and obviously you feel guilty about it or you wouldn't have brought it up, and it's why you're anger toward me is so hot, I touched a nerve. There's no need for you to answer back, I see where you're coming from, I see why you are so angry. No need to hash it out, this post has finally made it plain.[/QUOTE]
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I really believe because of your focus on dysfunctional relationships you have no idea what a truly functional relationship looks like....you have no ability to live inside of one. Such a pity.

I was about to say a few posts back that maybe you were being a little harsh on her. I was wrong. I don't what happened in her past. She says she doesn't want to it be personal, but she's revealed enough to understand she has issues. If her husband is good with their relationship, grand. There was no reason she had to come in guns a blazin' talking about "where is the love"? She didn't mean any of that. Her last post to me she made that totally clear. Whatever has happened in her past, I hope she finds healing. But she didn't need to bring that into this thread. She comes to a discussion forum, says she doesn't want to talk about anything personal and then all she does is talk personal and reveal her hang ups, while trying to hide them. Either way, she may take those issues to her grave, but I hope she talks with someone.
 

Ilive4Jesus

Active member
Apr 30, 2022
273
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okay..........
let's take a detour.

to @Live4Him3 kayla you said:
but you really haven't been here long enough
BUT,
something tells me that they have been.
Despite it saying New" under the name I get the impression from reading around that
Live4Him (Guest)
Live4Him2 (Guest)
AND Live4Him3 (New)
are all one and the same ;)
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
640
113
okay..........
let's take a detour.

to @Live4Him3 kayla you said:


BUT,
something tells me that they have been.
Despite it saying New" under the name I get the impression from reading around that
Live4Him (Guest)
Live4Him2 (Guest)
AND Live4Him3 (New)
are all one and the same ;)
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Not that it was a secret or anything...
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
okay..........
let's take a detour.

to @Live4Him3 kayla you said:


BUT,
something tells me that they have been.
Despite it saying New" under the name I get the impression from reading around that
Live4Him (Guest)
Live4Him2 (Guest)
AND Live4Him3 (New)
are all one and the same ;)

Ha! That's how much I pay attention to names. I hadn't even noticed!
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Not that it was a secret or anything...
I look at the avatar pic more than the name. The bear reminded me of Gatlinburg TN, they are pretty much everywhere there. Managed to get a Momma and her two babies on video.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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But I didn't miss that part. I posted the entire verses. I believe more than once. This is a long thread and I have responded since the beginning. So you would have to go back and read all I have said on the subject. But it hasn't been that many posts back that I gave the entire verses.

Hey, kaylagrl.

This thread seems to be going nowhere fast, but I'll address your comments simply out of courtesy/respect, and then I'll probably just move away from this conversation.

When I said that you seemingly missed that part, I didn't mean that you hadn't quoted that particular verse. Instead, I meant that you and at least one other poster here seemed to be taking umbrage when Polar (and I, in turn) simply asked "Where is the love?" I felt, and still do feel, that her question was beyond legitimate because the passage does speak of "benevolence" which precedes the physical part of any sexual act that so many people here seemed to only be focusing upon.

Also, in my initial post here, a post in which I quoted you, I began with a disclaimer that I had only read about the first 4 pages of this thread and 2 or 3 pages leading up to your post which I quoted. I also plainly stated that I might be genuinely ignorant of a lot of what was said here for the aforementioned reason.

Hopefully, this clears up this part of your post.

Again, the subject was made clear before either of you came to the thread, and I repeated, that we had said we were talking about a healthy Christian marriage. People from the first of the thread brought up health issues, or past trauma, but we weren't discussing that, and that was made clear.
A couple of things...

I'm not quite sure how you are equating "a healthy Christian marriage" with anything that I actually said. It seems to me, and I could be mistaken, based upon what you just said that by "healthy" you mean literally "healthy" as in no "health issues or past trauma". If such is indeed the case, then what in the world does that have to do with the "love" that seemed to be missing to both Polar and me?

Furthermore, even if you had said that you weren't discussing that, then what gives you or anybody else the right to get so bent out of shape when Polar or I brought up such an issue...an issue which is clearly included in the text at hand?

I have to say that I agree with Polar's assessment of you on this particular thread as far as having some sort of domineering attitude is concerned. This is a public forum, and all of the members are eligible to post on any given thread, and especially if their comments are in line with the actual topic of the thread, and both her comments and mine clearly were/are.

I mean, no offense, but drop the "Mother Superior" attitude here. I had enough of that when I went to Catholic school from 1st to 5th grade.

Also, although I'm not presently quoting him, JohnDB was totally out of line with some of his comments here as far as I'm concerned, so I'm a bit disappointed to see you in agreement with him.

The conclusions that the two of you have made in relation to Polar seem totally out of line to me, and I really don't think that either of you are seeing clearly right now as far as where she is concerned (not that I'm her spokesman...I don't even know anything about her, except for the few posts that I've read here).


Well, to be fair, maybe it's because you stopped listening to what I was saying and decided Polar was correct in all they were saying. I specifically spoke about "meeting each others needs" I specifically spoke about my sisters issue in her abusive marriage. And since you don't know me, or have read many of my posts you have made assumptions because you decided to take sides. I have spoken at length about abusive marriages in threads that I or others have started. I'm not trying to be mean, but you really haven't been here long enough to make the judgement call you are making.
Ironically, the one making assumptions (and off-the-wall assumptions at that) here is you.

First of all, I never "stopped listening", so you can drop that "maybe". Instead, as I clearly stated in my initial post here, I only read the first 4 pages or so of this thread, and then 2 or 3 pages leading up to the first post of yours that I quoted. I also mentioned at that time that I hadn't read any comments after that particular post as of yet, and I still haven't read some of them.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have all day to sit around reading a truckload of posts. I'm very busy with work and other matters, and I actually had the decency to give a plain disclaimer from my very first post here, so maybe it's you who needs to pay closer attention to what others here are saying.

Also, I never said that Polar was correct in all that she was saying, so you can drop that "maybe" as well. Instead, I simply agreed with her, and still do, that the aspect of "love" seemed to be missing from much of what you were saying. Again, to be fair to you, I haven't read all of your comments here, but I could easily cite some examples from the posts of yours that I actually have read.


Additionally, I both know you and have read many of your posts, and I haven't "taken sides" either...except that I'm always on the side of truth.

As another poster recently rightly noted, I've been here before as "Live4Him" and "Live4Him2", and you and I have conversed before both publicly and privately. Privately, especially in relation to a "porn addiction" thread from about a year or so ago in which I asked you to pray for a particular member who was posting here at that time.

I'd post an actual profile picture of myself to jog your memory, but in doing so I might cause some women here to abandon all of their sexual desires forever (after seeing my face), and I wouldn't want to carry that burden around with me (I'm joking, of course).

Second point, why do you and Polar seem to think that it's about the woman rolling over to "perform" for sex. You both do understand that there are men with no sex drive? There are wives that live in sexless marriages. And you both said there is a broader POV yet both of you never brought that point up. Again, you're both making assumptions and drawing conclusions that are hardly fair. You're new here, so I can give you the benefit of not reading my posts on these subjects. Polar has never spoken to me before this that I know of, so maybe she also hasn't read my posts on this. But if you had, neither of you would be making the judgement call you are. That's sad.
Again, I've read MANY of your posts before, and you've actually read quite a few of mine as well...and especially on the topic of marriage. If need be, then I can provide you links to some of them when I was posting here as "Live4Him".

As far as any "broader view" is concerned, I've simply been "broadening" much of what's been said here to include the much-needed aspect of love, and I've addressed that plainly more than once.


As far as "women rolling over" is concerned, I've addressed both women and men in my comments here.

Yes, some, and do you think you've made a fair assessment based on a handful of comments to one person? Because you seem like a fair minded and balanced person to me. Now that you have read this post, where do you stand?
I am a fair-minded and balanced person, and I stand right where I've stood all along.

On the side of LOVE within a marriage, and any sexual acts coming forth as a direct result of the same and not out of some lifeless command to "roll over".
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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I look at the avatar pic more than the name. The bear reminded me of Gatlinburg TN, they are pretty much everywhere there. Managed to get a Momma and her two babies on video.
I love animals in general, but Grizzly Bears are definitely my favorite.
 
P

Polar

Guest
Now this is where we get personal. I could say some things in anger right now that would get me booted from this forum in an instant.
I am surprised that how you behave has not been addressed. Your posts to me are basically false and I don't think, at this time, that you actually do not comprehend what I have said, although I did think that earlier.

Your constant dripping of false nonsense addressed to me began yesterday and within a minute you jumped into something I posted to another person and then the 2 of you asserted false words to me. I see what I see and I honestly do not see how someone who posts as you do can be happy. There is no reason for you to continue to attribute things to me I have never indicated in any way whatsoever.

You seem unable to address the actual topic, and love and respect and spiritual inclusion is part of it whether you think so or not, but instead resort to personal attacks. Having seen what you do, my guess would be that you have done this to others and it has become the way you behave in order to bully people away from what you seem to consider your personal space.

You are now chums with another person who has indicated he believes more nonsense about me. You have tried quite hard to manipulate me into an argument and I have to wonder to what end. I do have you on ignore actually, but I decided to write again concerning your nastiness towards me.

I find your posts aggressively nasty to the point the jabs are almost physical.

You have obsessed over me for some odd reason as other posters have different points of view and you really do not get after them. You have no way of controlling me or others here, yet you have more than once tried to do that very thing. These actions are perhaps an indication of someone who believes they have rights that others do not have. Whatever it is, I am sorry that you have taken such a dislike to me, without actually knowing me, have made up things about me multiple times; nonsense such as I don't like sex, I find sex dirty, I don't understand men, I am in disagreement with scripture and other false things that honestly make me wonder how you have any peace to be so unrighteous in the way you talk to me and include others in your conversations against me in a public forum.

None of that is Christian behavior and I wonder that you think it is ok to be that way to someone and hide behind the Bible and pretend you are expressing righteous anger when actually it is just you being dishonest in your attacks on me. I seldom would use the word attack, but in your case, I find you fit the description of the very meaning of that word.

I guess you have no problem making things up about someone you have decided you don't like and if that is so, that is worrisome but there you go. It's really not my problem Kayla.
 
P

Polar

Guest
I really believe because of your focus on dysfunctional relationships you have no idea what a truly functional relationship looks like....you have no ability to live inside of one. Such a pity.
If you believe trying to insert love and spiritual connection with the one you enjoy sex with is about dysfunction, then there is a problem with your ideas about marriage and all that entails.

You lie in all you have said towards me and for no reason. You have not contributed towards the op since I have posted in it, other than to bite and lie about me. I don't know who you are and I do not know why you would choose to be so unrighteous in what you have said to me.

This is supposed to be a Christian forum. Some of you seem to be unaware of that. I maintain that an individual who finds it healthy to be so nasty while declaring themself to be Christian, is not a happy person. There was no reason and there is no reason for you to go after me the way you have.

I don't care what you really believe because whatever it is, it is false.
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
247
81
28
The beauty of being a Christian is, we can forgive and go on. Works for sexual deprivation and many other things too. I know I'm new and not a moderator but........ y'all give it a rest. Life is too short. Shake hands and be friends. :)
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
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Your the one using the language 'lust... with unbridled passion.' The Greek word translated 'lust' is along lines of 'covet' in the 10 commandments. Compare with wording with the LXX of the ten commandments to see what I mean. Paul also wrote, as the KJV translates it, "I had not known lust if the law had not said Thou shalt not covet."

Coveting is something that can be done over other people's stuff. The Ten Commandment warns against coveting your neighbor's house, wife, donkey, etc. You don't covet your own wife, donkey, house, etc. because they are yours already.
And the same exact underlying Greek word was used by Paul to describe the type of "lust" that I rightfully referred to earlier on in this same exact epistle to the Romans that you're citing from:

"Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:" (Romans 1:24)

Paul also used it in precisely the manner in which I did in his first epistle to the Thessalonians:

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:" (I Thessalonians 4:3-5)

Just as an FYI, I've read most of Paul's epistles 100 times or more, so I'm quite familiar with what Paul did and did not say.

How do you know that marriage is supposed to be the union of Christ and the church? Paul... who wrote I Corinthians 7... wrote about this. He even writes in Ephesians 5 that two shall be one flesh speaks about the mystery of Christ and the church. Paul writes about the concept of two becoming one in I Corinthians 6 in arguing against having sex with a prostitute, so two becoming one flesh has a sexual meaning to it.

So you might want to reconsider your opposition to the idea of Christ passionately desiring the church. I'm sanitizing it from the terminology you used with the word 'lust' which has some negative connotations.
I never said or even implied that the concept of "two becoming one" didn't have "a sexual meaning to it", so I'm not sure why you're even bothering to mention this.

Instead, I've said that there's A LOT MORE than just a sexual meaning to it, and, ironically, if you read the portion of scripture that you just alluded to, then you would see that clearly for yourself.

Here it is:

I Corinthians chapter 6

[15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
[16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
[17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Did you catch that part about "he that is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT"?

I did.

Like I said earlier, I've read most of Paul's epistles 100 times or more, and I'm quite familiar with what Paul did and did not say.

Regarding our relationship with the Lord, Paul also said the following:

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thessalonians 5:23)

Our relationship with the Lord involves our "WHOLE SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY".

Don't miss the order...because it's the same order that ought to exist in the relationship between a man and his wife that was designed by God to mirror Christ's relationship with the church.

Having a desire to have a sexual relationship might rightly be a deciding factor when considering to choose a life of celibacy or marriage. But more consideration should be given about ___who__ to marry than just finding a sex partner.
Better still, this should be the primary area of consideration before one decides to get married:

"And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. " (Malachi 2:15)

While we're on the topic of the "two becoming one" and sexual relations, does anybody here give a hoot about what God desires in all of this?

In other words, "a godly seed"?

I do...and it's a terrifying responsibility for those who aren't just focused upon themselves and their own carnal desires.

Paul wrote that it is better to marry than to burn. Some translations throw 'with passion' to that. The Greek word is used elsewhere when Paul asks who sins and he does not burn. It has to do with emotion. The word is apparently not specifically a word for burning with sexual passion. That's how some translators take it in that passage.
In context, that certainly seems to be Paul's intended usage of the word.

There may be some emotional aspects to us that could make us susceptible to fornication. Some girls may fall into sexual sin through a desire for romantic attention from a man, even if it isn't all about sexual fantasies or what have you. I think we should consider that someone might 'burn' with a desire to have children and a family, and the the idea of life-long celibacy may be difficult for that reason also.
There very well may be, but, again, in context, this particular aspect doesn't seem to be what Paul was addressing.

From what I've read, the area where these people to whom Paul was writing abode was basically a stomping ground for all sorts of sexual activity, so this is more than likely what Paul was actually addressing here.

So do you think this means married Christians should ration sex to their partners? 'Lust' is often used to refer to _inappropriate_ desires in scripture rather than appropriate ones. There may be some exceptions.
Again, I've never said nor implied a single word about anybody "rationing sex to their partner", so I don't know why you're even asking this question. Instead, I've repeatedly simply sought to rightfully include LOVE or BENEVOLENCE in the equation whereas others here seem to be fixated upon just the sexual act itself.

Do you think the word 'temperance' there has to do with rationing the husband or wife down to once a month or something like that?
No, I do not.

I mentioned "temperance" because men seemed to be being described as dogs in heat. You know, just after their "conjugal rights" without necessarily showing any love towards their wives. The same principle applies to women as well.

Is it really that hard for you and others here to grasp what I've repeatedly and simply stated?

That LOVE is a much-needed variable in all of this?

That a man or woman should care for their spouse's SPIRIT AND SOUL, and NOT just lust after their body?

Btw, I don't think anyone is endorsing marriage to one's father's wife in here.
I never said nor insinuated that they were.

Instead, I simply mentioned that the Corinthians to whom Paul was writing were hardly the blueprint for Christianity. They had plenty of problems. So much so that Paul had to tell them to examine themselves to see if they were even in the faith.

Regarding food, I don't recall Paul mentioning gluttony at the Lord's table. He said one man is hungry and another is drunken. He told them to wait for one another. Maybe those with food ate it up before the poor slaves who had no food were able to get away and arrive late. Anyway, Paul said if any man is hungry, let him eat at home. If you eat two or three times a day except for an occasional fast, is that a 'temperate' lifestyle?
In hindsight, I shouldn't have used the word "gluttony".

My point was, and still is, that these Corinthians were hardly the blueprint for Christianity.

My wife and I were virgins when we got married, but I really did want a wife and various benefits that came with that.
Good for you, sincerely, that you were virgins.

Accepting what Paul teaches in I Corinthians does not mean one does not see people as people. I see my wife as a person.
Accepting ALL of what Paul taught in I Corinthians is a must...including the BENEVOLENCE part.

Without that, men or women are basically subjugated to becoming living sex toys for their spouses at their whim and fancy.

I was picky as a single man, not just about looks, but about values, beliefs, and character.
I'm glad to hear it.
 
P

Polar

Guest
Well I think our idea of sex is different.
I supported my thoughts on marriage with scripture. I don't have to defend that. I never once said anything about sex being dirty and I wonder why you think that. I don't know. Maybe you don't really think that but are just reaching into a sewer of nasty to goad me into a fight.

I have not called you names; I have made some observations and you have done nothing to change them.

I suggest you read post 593 and if you have already done so, read it again. What is Live4Him3 saying? I don't know him either but he makes the same observations about you that I have made. Get over yourself. You are not, as he states, the Mother Superior here and no one has to jump when you say something and ask 'how high'.

He also says this:

I have to say that I agree with Polar's assessment of you on this particular thread as far as having some sort of domineering attitude is concerned. This is a public forum, and all of the members are eligible to post on any given thread, and especially if their comments are in line with the actual topic of the thread, and both her comments and mine clearly were/are

There is nothing to win here. No one is going to get a cracker jack crown to boast about and being as intolerant as you appear to be, is not in defense of scripture because you are denying what myself and Live have said and included from scripture as a wider understanding of sex.

I guess you have to live your life as you see fit, but no one else has to give you power over their words, expressions or thoughts.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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I supported my thoughts on marriage with scripture. I don't have to defend that. I never once said anything about sex being dirty and I wonder why you think that. I don't know. Maybe you don't really think that but are just reaching into a sewer of nasty to goad me into a fight.

I have not called you names; I have made some observations and you have done nothing to change them.

I suggest you read post 593 and if you have already done so, read it again. What is Live4Him3 saying? I don't know him either but he makes the same observations about you that I have made. Get over yourself. You are not, as he states, the Mother Superior here and no one has to jump when you say something and ask 'how high'.

He also says this:

I have to say that I agree with Polar's assessment of you on this particular thread as far as having some sort of domineering attitude is concerned. This is a public forum, and all of the members are eligible to post on any given thread, and especially if their comments are in line with the actual topic of the thread, and both her comments and mine clearly were/are

There is nothing to win here. No one is going to get a cracker jack crown to boast about and being as intolerant as you appear to be, is not in defense of scripture because you are denying what myself and Live have said and included from scripture as a wider understanding of sex.

I guess you have to live your life as you see fit, but no one else has to give you power over their words, expressions or thoughts.
For whatever it's worth, and I simply say this as an honest Christian man with no other ulterior motives whatsoever, I, too, believe that some outlandish accusations have wrongly been leveled against you here (and now carried over to a brand new thread by implication). I've read the same posts of yours that they've read (assuming that they're actually reading them before responding to them), and I don't see even a hint of the things that they've accused you of in your actual words.

My advice to you is to simply look up, as Jesus did when he was being reviled, unto him that judges righteously.

God knows what you've said and haven't said, and also the motives behind the same.

His is the only judgment which will matter in the end.

I Peter chapter 2

[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
[22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
[23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
[24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

P.S.

Maybe they're just allergic to bears...lol.
 
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