Do you believe in (OSAS) Once Saved, Always Saved?
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Hey...
Sure theres plenty of scripture
Its not the text, its the leading of His spirit.
Man in his own righteousness , complicates things, when the Lord is clear when He speaks,
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
We make His yoke of "works", in and of ourselves, then its our burden....
Maybe if we all consider that ALL MEN have their vice(s) , its the nature of man,
Then maybe we can show true compassion towards one another and let the Gospel be
"hearkened" to.
God Bless!
Sure theres plenty of scripture
Its not the text, its the leading of His spirit.
Man in his own righteousness , complicates things, when the Lord is clear when He speaks,
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
We make His yoke of "works", in and of ourselves, then its our burden....
Maybe if we all consider that ALL MEN have their vice(s) , its the nature of man,
Then maybe we can show true compassion towards one another and let the Gospel be
"hearkened" to.
God Bless!
1 Cor 9:
"Run Your Race to Win
24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
And so St. Paul the Apostle, who wrote so many books in our Bible, describes as a possibility that he himself "should be a castaway."
Anyway, it's been an interesting debate, and I think both sides have put forth the Scriptural Texts they view as supporting their position.
For me, I don't subscribe to the Calvinist view of "Justification alone", but the traditional Augustinian view of "Justification+Perseverance".
As I said in the OP. After Justification, we must pray for Perseverance. If it is granted to us, we will Persevere
"Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." (Chapter 9) https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
God Bless, All.
"Run Your Race to Win
24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
And so St. Paul the Apostle, who wrote so many books in our Bible, describes as a possibility that he himself "should be a castaway."
Anyway, it's been an interesting debate, and I think both sides have put forth the Scriptural Texts they view as supporting their position.
For me, I don't subscribe to the Calvinist view of "Justification alone", but the traditional Augustinian view of "Justification+Perseverance".
As I said in the OP. After Justification, we must pray for Perseverance. If it is granted to us, we will Persevere
"Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." (Chapter 9) https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
God Bless, All.
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Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) wrote against it in the first century, around the year 80.
^ Part of my earlier post
^ Part of my earlier post
Shepherd of Hermas & Augustine ((from whom Calvin got practically all his theology; it's not 'calvinism' properly but 'augustinism' tbh)) both seem to have believed that a truly saved person cannot be 'unsaved' -- with the caveat that there are many who appear saved but who really aren't; this thing being established in 1 John 2 - those who depart prove by their departure that they were never truly belonging to us. 1 John 2:19 cannot be glossed over or overlooked.
at any rate it is established that the idea of the security of the believer has been around since the church began.
but as i have tried to point out, "OSAS" is a false characterization. where the early church fathers made clear their opinion that a person who devolves into willful unrepentant sin after having confessed faith is not at all saved, some ((but not all)) also framed this within the paradigm established by 1 John 2:19 & Matthew 7:23. those who depart from faith were never truly in the faith; Christ never knew them and their departure shows that their faith ((by extension their salvation)) was never genuine in the first place.
an intrinsic part of "OSAS" is a false characterization of salvation. it presumes that there is such a thing as a salvation in which God is not at all at work and never has been at work. it calls a completely carnal human 'declaration' made up entirely of human will and human works, devoid of any divine operation, 'salvation' -- and that is complete rubbish. there is no salvation apart from God. salvation is is God's work, not man's.
we were dead and He quickened us. dead people do not make decisions and carry out actions. they lie in state, until God raises them.
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Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) wrote against it in the first century, around the year 80.
^ Part of my earlier post
^ Part of my earlier post
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Before that Jesus spoke of it Himself ..
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:37 plus John 10:28
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If Calvin got his theology from Augustine, he seriously misunderstood him: "If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, I have not received, because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received.—Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, c. AD 426 or 427, Chapter 9)
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1513.htm
there is such a thing as apostasy----and it is a serious matter ------
What is the meaning of apostasy in Christianity?
apostasy, the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it.
This is a serious matter and you cannot reverse this -------you cannot crucify Jesus a second time -----
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
a forsaking, (bill of) divorce
Usage: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Hebrews 6:4-6
Amplified Bible
4 For [it is impossible to restore to repentance] those who have once been enlightened [spiritually] and who have [a]tasted and consciously experienced the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted and consciously experienced the good word of God and the powers of the age (world) to come,
6 [b]and then have fallen away—it is impossible to bring them back again to repentance, since they again nail the Son of God on the cross [for as far as they are concerned, they are treating the death of Christ as if they were not saved by it], and are holding Him up again to public disgrace.
What is the meaning of apostasy in Christianity?
apostasy, the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith, publicly rejects it.
This is a serious matter and you cannot reverse this -------you cannot crucify Jesus a second time -----
Strong's Concordance
apostasia: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies
a forsaking, (bill of) divorce
Usage: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Hebrews 6:4-6
Amplified Bible
4 For [it is impossible to restore to repentance] those who have once been enlightened [spiritually] and who have [a]tasted and consciously experienced the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted and consciously experienced the good word of God and the powers of the age (world) to come,
6 [b]and then have fallen away—it is impossible to bring them back again to repentance, since they again nail the Son of God on the cross [for as far as they are concerned, they are treating the death of Christ as if they were not saved by it], and are holding Him up again to public disgrace.
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Jesus said ...
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anyone posting here willing to say they they came to the Lord with out the draw of the Father?
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Anyone posting here willing to say they they came to the Lord with out the draw of the Father?
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let's read the whole context of that snippet together:
Chapter 9 [VI]— Why They May Justly Be Rebuked Who Do Not Obey God, Although They Have Not Yet Received the Grace of Obedience.
The apostle says, say they, 'For who makes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received? Now also if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?' 2 Corinthians 4:7 Why, then, are we rebuked, censured, reproved, accused? What do we do, we who have not received? They who say this wish to appear without blame in respect of their not obeying God, because assuredly obedience itself is His gift; and that gift must of necessity be in him in whom dwells love, which without doubt is of God, 1 John 4:7 and the Father gives it to His children. This, say they, we have not received. Why, then, are we rebuked, as if we were able to give it to ourselves, and of our own choice would not give it? And they do not observe that, if they are not yet regenerated, the first reason why, when they are reproached because they are disobedient to God, they ought to be dissatisfied with themselves is, that God made man upright from the beginning of the human creation, Ecclesiastes 7:30 and there is no unrighteousness with God. Romans 9:14 And thus the first depravity, whereby God is not obeyed, is of man, because, falling by his own evil will from the rectitude in which God at first made him, he became depraved. Is, then, that depravity not to be rebuked in a man because it is not peculiar to him who is rebuked, but is common to all? Nay, let that also be rebuked in individuals, which is common to all. For the circumstance that none is altogether free from it is no reason why it should not attach to each man. Those original sins, indeed, are said to be the sins of others, because individuals derived them from their parents; but they are not unreasonably said to be our own also, because in that one, as the apostle says, all have sinned. Romans 3:23 Let, then, the damnable source be rebuked, that from the mortification of rebuke may spring the will of regeneration — if, indeed, he who is rebuked is a child of promise — in order that, by the noise of the rebuke sounding and lashing from without, God may by His hidden inspiration work in him from within to will also. If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, I have not received, because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. And if, stung with compunction by rebuke, he wholesomely bewails, and returns to similar good works, or even better, certainly here most manifestly appears the advantage of rebuke. But yet for rebuke by the agency of man to avail, whether it be of love or not, depends only upon God.
Chapter 9 [VI]— Why They May Justly Be Rebuked Who Do Not Obey God, Although They Have Not Yet Received the Grace of Obedience.
The apostle says, say they, 'For who makes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received? Now also if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?' 2 Corinthians 4:7 Why, then, are we rebuked, censured, reproved, accused? What do we do, we who have not received? They who say this wish to appear without blame in respect of their not obeying God, because assuredly obedience itself is His gift; and that gift must of necessity be in him in whom dwells love, which without doubt is of God, 1 John 4:7 and the Father gives it to His children. This, say they, we have not received. Why, then, are we rebuked, as if we were able to give it to ourselves, and of our own choice would not give it? And they do not observe that, if they are not yet regenerated, the first reason why, when they are reproached because they are disobedient to God, they ought to be dissatisfied with themselves is, that God made man upright from the beginning of the human creation, Ecclesiastes 7:30 and there is no unrighteousness with God. Romans 9:14 And thus the first depravity, whereby God is not obeyed, is of man, because, falling by his own evil will from the rectitude in which God at first made him, he became depraved. Is, then, that depravity not to be rebuked in a man because it is not peculiar to him who is rebuked, but is common to all? Nay, let that also be rebuked in individuals, which is common to all. For the circumstance that none is altogether free from it is no reason why it should not attach to each man. Those original sins, indeed, are said to be the sins of others, because individuals derived them from their parents; but they are not unreasonably said to be our own also, because in that one, as the apostle says, all have sinned. Romans 3:23 Let, then, the damnable source be rebuked, that from the mortification of rebuke may spring the will of regeneration — if, indeed, he who is rebuked is a child of promise — in order that, by the noise of the rebuke sounding and lashing from without, God may by His hidden inspiration work in him from within to will also. If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, I have not received, because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. And if, stung with compunction by rebuke, he wholesomely bewails, and returns to similar good works, or even better, certainly here most manifestly appears the advantage of rebuke. But yet for rebuke by the agency of man to avail, whether it be of love or not, depends only upon God.
continued:
Chapter 10— All Perseverance is God's Gift.
Is such an one as is unwilling to be rebuked still able to say, What have I done — I who have not received? when it appears plainly that he has received, and by his own fault has lost that which he has received? I am able, says he, I am altogether able — when you reprove me for having of my own will relapsed from a good life into a bad one — still to say, What have I done — I who have not received? For I have received faith, which works by love, but I have not received perseverance therein to the end. Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, 'For what have you which you have not received?' 1 Corinthians 4:7 since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it? To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights. James 1:17 But the rebuke of him who has not persevered must not on that account be neglected, lest God perchance give unto him repentance, and he recover from the snares of the devil; 2 Timothy 2:25 since to the usefulness of rebuke the apostle has subjoined this decision, saying, as I have above mentioned, Rebuking with moderation those that think differently, lest at any time God give them repentance. 2 Timothy 2:25 For if we should say that such a perseverance, so laudable and so blessed, is man's in such wise as that he has it not from God, we first of all make void that which the Lord says to Peter: I have prayed for you that your faith fail not. Luke 22:32 For what did He ask for him, but perseverance to the end? And assuredly, if a man could have this from man, it should not have been asked from God. Then when the apostle says, Now we pray to God that you do no evil, 2 Corinthians 13:7 beyond a doubt he prays to God on their behalf for perseverance. For certainly he does not do no evil who forsakes good, and, not persevering in good, turns to the evil, from which he ought to turn aside. In that place, moreover, where he says, I thank my God in every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making quest with joy for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, — what else does he promise to them from the mercy of God than perseverance in good to the end? And again where he says, Epaphras salutes you, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, always striving for you in prayer, that you may stand perfect and fulfilled in all the will of God, Colossians 4:12 — what is that you may stand but that you may persevere? Whence it was said of the devil, He stood not in the truth; John 8:24 because he was there, but he did not continue. For assuredly those were already standing in the faith. And when we pray that he who stands may stand, we do not pray for anything else than that he may persevere. Jude the apostle, again, when he says, Now unto Him that is able to keep you without offense, and to establish you before the presence of His glory, immaculate in joy, Jude 24 does he not most manifestly show that perseverance in good unto the end is God's gift? For what but a good perseverance does He give who preserves without offense that He may place before the presence of His glory immaculate in joy? What is it, moreover, that we read in the Acts of the Apostles: And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and received the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed? Acts 13:48 Who could be ordained to eternal life save by the gift of perseverance? And when we read, He that shall persevere unto the end shall be saved; Matthew 10:22 with what salvation but eternal? And when, in the Lord's Prayer, we say to God the Father, Hallowed be Your name, Matthew 6:9 what do we ask but that His name may be hallowed in us? And as this is already accomplished by means of the laver of regeneration, why is it daily asked by believers, except that we may persevere in that which is already done in us? For the blessed Cyprian also understands this in this manner, inasmuch as, in his exposition of the same prayer, he says: We say, 'Hallowed be Your name,' not that we wish for God that He may be hallowed by our prayers, but that we ask of God that His name may be hallowed in us. But by whom is God hallowed; since He Himself hallows? Well, because He said, 'Be holy, since I also am holy;' we ask and entreat that we who have been hallowed in baptism may persevere in that which we have begun to be. Behold the most glorious martyr is of this opinion, that what in these words Christ's faithful people are daily asking is, that they may persevere in that which they have begun to be. And no one need doubt, but that whosoever prays from the Lord that he may persevere in good, confesses thereby that such perseverance is His gift.
Chapter 10— All Perseverance is God's Gift.
Is such an one as is unwilling to be rebuked still able to say, What have I done — I who have not received? when it appears plainly that he has received, and by his own fault has lost that which he has received? I am able, says he, I am altogether able — when you reprove me for having of my own will relapsed from a good life into a bad one — still to say, What have I done — I who have not received? For I have received faith, which works by love, but I have not received perseverance therein to the end. Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, 'For what have you which you have not received?' 1 Corinthians 4:7 since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it? To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights. James 1:17 But the rebuke of him who has not persevered must not on that account be neglected, lest God perchance give unto him repentance, and he recover from the snares of the devil; 2 Timothy 2:25 since to the usefulness of rebuke the apostle has subjoined this decision, saying, as I have above mentioned, Rebuking with moderation those that think differently, lest at any time God give them repentance. 2 Timothy 2:25 For if we should say that such a perseverance, so laudable and so blessed, is man's in such wise as that he has it not from God, we first of all make void that which the Lord says to Peter: I have prayed for you that your faith fail not. Luke 22:32 For what did He ask for him, but perseverance to the end? And assuredly, if a man could have this from man, it should not have been asked from God. Then when the apostle says, Now we pray to God that you do no evil, 2 Corinthians 13:7 beyond a doubt he prays to God on their behalf for perseverance. For certainly he does not do no evil who forsakes good, and, not persevering in good, turns to the evil, from which he ought to turn aside. In that place, moreover, where he says, I thank my God in every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making quest with joy for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ, — what else does he promise to them from the mercy of God than perseverance in good to the end? And again where he says, Epaphras salutes you, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, always striving for you in prayer, that you may stand perfect and fulfilled in all the will of God, Colossians 4:12 — what is that you may stand but that you may persevere? Whence it was said of the devil, He stood not in the truth; John 8:24 because he was there, but he did not continue. For assuredly those were already standing in the faith. And when we pray that he who stands may stand, we do not pray for anything else than that he may persevere. Jude the apostle, again, when he says, Now unto Him that is able to keep you without offense, and to establish you before the presence of His glory, immaculate in joy, Jude 24 does he not most manifestly show that perseverance in good unto the end is God's gift? For what but a good perseverance does He give who preserves without offense that He may place before the presence of His glory immaculate in joy? What is it, moreover, that we read in the Acts of the Apostles: And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and received the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed? Acts 13:48 Who could be ordained to eternal life save by the gift of perseverance? And when we read, He that shall persevere unto the end shall be saved; Matthew 10:22 with what salvation but eternal? And when, in the Lord's Prayer, we say to God the Father, Hallowed be Your name, Matthew 6:9 what do we ask but that His name may be hallowed in us? And as this is already accomplished by means of the laver of regeneration, why is it daily asked by believers, except that we may persevere in that which is already done in us? For the blessed Cyprian also understands this in this manner, inasmuch as, in his exposition of the same prayer, he says: We say, 'Hallowed be Your name,' not that we wish for God that He may be hallowed by our prayers, but that we ask of God that His name may be hallowed in us. But by whom is God hallowed; since He Himself hallows? Well, because He said, 'Be holy, since I also am holy;' we ask and entreat that we who have been hallowed in baptism may persevere in that which we have begun to be. Behold the most glorious martyr is of this opinion, that what in these words Christ's faithful people are daily asking is, that they may persevere in that which they have begun to be. And no one need doubt, but that whosoever prays from the Lord that he may persevere in good, confesses thereby that such perseverance is His gift.
continued:
Chapter 11 [VII.]— They Who Have Not Received the Gift of Perseverance, and Have Relapsed into Mortal Sin and Have Died Therein, Must Righteously Be Condemned.
If, then, these things be so, we still rebuke those, and reasonably rebuke them, who, although they were living well, have not persevered therein; because they have of their own will been changed from a good to an evil life, and on that account are worthy of rebuke; and if rebuke should be of no avail to them, and they should persevere in their ruined life until death, they are also worthy of divine condemnation forever. Neither shall they excuse themselves, saying — as now they say, Wherefore are we rebuked?— so then, Wherefore are we condemned, since indeed, that we might return from good to evil, we did not receive that perseverance by which we should abide in good? They shall by no means deliver themselves by this excuse from righteous condemnation. For if, according to the word of truth, no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through the faith of Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ, on the ground that faith comes by hearing, Romans 10:17 how much less shall they deliver themselves who shall say, We have not received perseverance! For the excuse of those who say, We have not received hearing, seems more equitable than that of those who say, We have not received perseverance; since it may be said, O man, in that which you had heard and kept, in that you might persevere if you would, but in no wise can it be said, That which you had not heard you might believe if you would.
Chapter 12.— They Who Have Not Received Perseverance are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Those that are Lost.
And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him, since He Himself says, No man comes unto me, except it were given him of my Father, John 6:65 and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole laver of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation. Some are made to differ, however, not by their own merits, but by the grace of the Mediator; that is to say, they are justified freely in the blood of the second Adam. Therefore, when we hear, For who makes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received? Now, if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7 we ought to understand that from that mass of perdition which originated through the first Adam, no one can be made to differ except he who has this gift, which whosoever has, has received by the grace of the Saviour. And this apostolic testimony is so great, that the blessed Cyprian writing to Quirinus put it in the place of a title, when he says, That we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own.
Chapter 13.— Election is of Grace, Not of Merit.
Whosoever, then, are made to differ from that original condemnation by such bounty of divine grace, there is no doubt but that for such it is provided that they should hear the gospel, and when they hear they believe, and in the faith which works by love they persevere unto the end; and if, perchance, they deviate from the way, when they are rebuked they are amended and some of them, although they may not be rebuked by men, return into the path which they had left; and some who have received grace in any age whatever are withdrawn from the perils of this life by swiftness of death. For He works all these things in them who made them vessels of mercy, who also elected them in His Son before the foundation of the world by the election of grace: And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. Romans 11:6 For they were not so called as not to be elected, in respect of which it is said, For many are called but few are elected; Matthew 20:16 but because they were called according to the purpose, they are of a certainty also elected by the election, as it is said, of grace, not of any precedent merits of theirs, because to them grace is all merit.
Chapter 11 [VII.]— They Who Have Not Received the Gift of Perseverance, and Have Relapsed into Mortal Sin and Have Died Therein, Must Righteously Be Condemned.
If, then, these things be so, we still rebuke those, and reasonably rebuke them, who, although they were living well, have not persevered therein; because they have of their own will been changed from a good to an evil life, and on that account are worthy of rebuke; and if rebuke should be of no avail to them, and they should persevere in their ruined life until death, they are also worthy of divine condemnation forever. Neither shall they excuse themselves, saying — as now they say, Wherefore are we rebuked?— so then, Wherefore are we condemned, since indeed, that we might return from good to evil, we did not receive that perseverance by which we should abide in good? They shall by no means deliver themselves by this excuse from righteous condemnation. For if, according to the word of truth, no one is delivered from the condemnation which was incurred through Adam except through the faith of Jesus Christ, and yet from this condemnation they shall not deliver themselves who shall be able to say that they have not heard the gospel of Christ, on the ground that faith comes by hearing, Romans 10:17 how much less shall they deliver themselves who shall say, We have not received perseverance! For the excuse of those who say, We have not received hearing, seems more equitable than that of those who say, We have not received perseverance; since it may be said, O man, in that which you had heard and kept, in that you might persevere if you would, but in no wise can it be said, That which you had not heard you might believe if you would.
Chapter 12.— They Who Have Not Received Perseverance are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Those that are Lost.
And, consequently, both those who have not heard the gospel, and those who, having heard it and been changed by it for the better, have not received perseverance, and those who, having heard the gospel, have refused to come to Christ, that is, to believe in Him, since He Himself says, No man comes unto me, except it were given him of my Father, John 6:65 and those who by their tender age were unable to believe, but might be absolved from original sin by the sole laver of regeneration, and yet have not received this laver, and have perished in death: are not made to differ from that lump which it is plain is condemned, as all go from one into condemnation. Some are made to differ, however, not by their own merits, but by the grace of the Mediator; that is to say, they are justified freely in the blood of the second Adam. Therefore, when we hear, For who makes you to differ? And what have you that you have not received? Now, if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7 we ought to understand that from that mass of perdition which originated through the first Adam, no one can be made to differ except he who has this gift, which whosoever has, has received by the grace of the Saviour. And this apostolic testimony is so great, that the blessed Cyprian writing to Quirinus put it in the place of a title, when he says, That we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own.
Chapter 13.— Election is of Grace, Not of Merit.
Whosoever, then, are made to differ from that original condemnation by such bounty of divine grace, there is no doubt but that for such it is provided that they should hear the gospel, and when they hear they believe, and in the faith which works by love they persevere unto the end; and if, perchance, they deviate from the way, when they are rebuked they are amended and some of them, although they may not be rebuked by men, return into the path which they had left; and some who have received grace in any age whatever are withdrawn from the perils of this life by swiftness of death. For He works all these things in them who made them vessels of mercy, who also elected them in His Son before the foundation of the world by the election of grace: And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. Romans 11:6 For they were not so called as not to be elected, in respect of which it is said, For many are called but few are elected; Matthew 20:16 but because they were called according to the purpose, they are of a certainty also elected by the election, as it is said, of grace, not of any precedent merits of theirs, because to them grace is all merit.
continued:
Chapter 14.— None of the Elect and Predestinated Can Perish.
Of such says the apostle, We know that to those that love God He works together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified. Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God's; of which He elsewhere says, That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said to her that the elder shall serve the younger. Romans 9:11 And in another place he says, Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace. 2 Timothy 1:9 When, therefore, we hear, Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called, Romans 8:29 we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, He works together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose, and then added, Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And to these promises He added, Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called. He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord's: Many the called but few are elected. Matthew 20:16 For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!
Chapter 15.— Perseverance is Given to the End.
Rightly follows the word to the kingdom of the elect: If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how has He not also with Him given us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? God who justifies? Who condemns? Christ who died? Yea, rather who rose again also, who is at the right hand of God, who also solicits on our behalf? And of how steadfast a perseverance even to the end they have received the gift, let them follow on to say: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, Because for your sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that has loved us. For I am certain, that neither death, nor life, nor angel, nor principality, nor things present, nor things to come, nor power, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Chapter 16.— Whosoever Do Not Persevere are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Perdition by Predestination.
Such as these were they who were signified to Timothy, where, when it had been said that Hymenæus and Philetus had subverted the faith of some, it is presently added, Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord has known them that are His. 2 Timothy 2:19 The faith of these, which works by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God's purpose, and thus are not elected; but are called among those of whom it was said, Many are called, not among those of whom it was said, But few are elected. And yet who can deny that they are elect, since they believe and are baptized, and live according to God? Manifestly, they are called elect by those who are ignorant of what they shall be, but not by Him who knew that they would not have the perseverance which leads the elect forward into the blessed life, and knows that they so stand, as that He has foreknown that they will fall.
Chapter 14.— None of the Elect and Predestinated Can Perish.
Of such says the apostle, We know that to those that love God He works together all things for good, to them who are called according to His purpose; because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified. Of these no one perishes, because all are elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose — the purpose, however, not their own, but God's; of which He elsewhere says, That the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said to her that the elder shall serve the younger. Romans 9:11 And in another place he says, Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace. 2 Timothy 1:9 When, therefore, we hear, Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called, Romans 8:29 we ought to acknowledge that they were called according to His purpose; since He thence began, saying, He works together all things for good to those who are called according to His purpose, and then added, Because those whom He before foreknew, He also did predestinate, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. And to these promises He added, Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called. He wishes these, therefore, to be understood whom He called according to His purpose, lest any among them should be thought to be called and not elected, on account of that sentence of the Lord's: Many the called but few are elected. Matthew 20:16 For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? John 6:70 we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!
Chapter 15.— Perseverance is Given to the End.
Rightly follows the word to the kingdom of the elect: If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how has He not also with Him given us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? God who justifies? Who condemns? Christ who died? Yea, rather who rose again also, who is at the right hand of God, who also solicits on our behalf? And of how steadfast a perseverance even to the end they have received the gift, let them follow on to say: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, Because for your sake we are killed all the day long, we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. But in all these things we are more than conquerors, through Him that has loved us. For I am certain, that neither death, nor life, nor angel, nor principality, nor things present, nor things to come, nor power, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Chapter 16.— Whosoever Do Not Persevere are Not Distinguished from the Mass of Perdition by Predestination.
Such as these were they who were signified to Timothy, where, when it had been said that Hymenæus and Philetus had subverted the faith of some, it is presently added, Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord has known them that are His. 2 Timothy 2:19 The faith of these, which works by love, either actually does not fail at all, or, if there are any whose faith fails, it is restored before their life is ended, and the iniquity which had intervened is done away, and perseverance even to the end is allotted to them. But they who are not to persevere, and who shall so fall away from Christian faith and conduct that the end of this life shall find them in that case, beyond all doubt are not to be reckoned in the number of these, even in that season wherein they are living well and piously. For they are not made to differ from that mass of perdition by the foreknowledge and predestination of God, and therefore are not called according to God's purpose, and thus are not elected; but are called among those of whom it was said, Many are called, not among those of whom it was said, But few are elected. And yet who can deny that they are elect, since they believe and are baptized, and live according to God? Manifestly, they are called elect by those who are ignorant of what they shall be, but not by Him who knew that they would not have the perseverance which leads the elect forward into the blessed life, and knows that they so stand, as that He has foreknown that they will fall.
so it seems to me that if you allow Augustine to complete his argument, instead of quote-mining a snippet out of context, it is exactly what is today called 'calvinism' -- the perseverance of the saints is a gift of God, and if anyone does not persevere, it is because God has not granted them to.
Augustine goes on to destroy the argument that God is unjust if He shows mercy on some and not others, which would be your next logical objection to His sovereignty.
i'll spare spamming all that text into this thread; the link is in your post -- anyone willing to due proper diligence can go read it for themselves.
not that i am or am not augustinian. but that we shouldn't just pick things out of lengthy, complex arguments and misrepresent them by failing to acknowledge the overall thrust of the discussion.
Augustine goes on to destroy the argument that God is unjust if He shows mercy on some and not others, which would be your next logical objection to His sovereignty.
i'll spare spamming all that text into this thread; the link is in your post -- anyone willing to due proper diligence can go read it for themselves.
not that i am or am not augustinian. but that we shouldn't just pick things out of lengthy, complex arguments and misrepresent them by failing to acknowledge the overall thrust of the discussion.
"Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."
-- Calvin, John. A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. in Calvin, John (1987). Calvin's Calvinism. Translated by Henry Cole. Grandville, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association. p. 38
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because it is not a simple argument.
if you are for whatever reason unable to read more than a few lines of text, just read the bolded chapter titles. those alone are enough to refute what you are presenting to be Augustine's view.
that Calvin's theology comes directly from Augustine is well-known; Calvin himself says it in a quote i provided for you in my previous post.
again -- not that i am or am not a calvinist. and not that what people today call 'calvinism' has anything to do with what Calvin himself believed. generally the people who use the word 'calvinism' ((just like the only people who use the term 'OSAS')) are people who hate these beliefs.
it is a good rule of thumb that a person who hates something is not a reliable source of information about that something.
if you are for whatever reason unable to read more than a few lines of text, just read the bolded chapter titles. those alone are enough to refute what you are presenting to be Augustine's view.
that Calvin's theology comes directly from Augustine is well-known; Calvin himself says it in a quote i provided for you in my previous post.
again -- not that i am or am not a calvinist. and not that what people today call 'calvinism' has anything to do with what Calvin himself believed. generally the people who use the word 'calvinism' ((just like the only people who use the term 'OSAS')) are people who hate these beliefs.
it is a good rule of thumb that a person who hates something is not a reliable source of information about that something.
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