How would you classify those clergymen and theologians (and even ordinary laymen) who attack the Bible, attack the Gospel, deny the deity of Christ, and approve same-sex marriages and abortion? Also those who elevate Mary to the same level as God and Christ? Those who claim that Christians and Muslims are "brothers" and worship the same God?
NO falling away…Just a free ride… with Jesus.
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I haven't spent a lot of time with this yet, but my guess is that it has something to do with prophesies in Daniel.
I think the whole passage is talking about revelations he had previously taught them from the book of Daniel.
And most likely this great rebellion is linked to the revelation of that Wicked. They will follow him as their messiah. One who demands to be worshipped as God. This is a probably about the Jews as a nation following someone like that. And sure when he is running things he will make people worship the image or be killed so everyone is at risk of choosing to save their life and "fall away" but I think it is a probably a reference to a prophesy.
Like when Jesus said another comes in his own name and him you will follow. That is the great rebellion.
I think the whole passage is talking about revelations he had previously taught them from the book of Daniel.
And most likely this great rebellion is linked to the revelation of that Wicked. They will follow him as their messiah. One who demands to be worshipped as God. This is a probably about the Jews as a nation following someone like that. And sure when he is running things he will make people worship the image or be killed so everyone is at risk of choosing to save their life and "fall away" but I think it is a probably a reference to a prophesy.
Like when Jesus said another comes in his own name and him you will follow. That is the great rebellion.
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It's very simple: S I N N E R S . There's sinners, & there's saints. Nothing in between.
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2 Thessalonians 2 begins with an introduction of the subject, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him," intimately connecting these two events and, since God is One of perfect order, would have been worded in the reverse order, i.e. "Concerning our being gather to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ," if that is the exact order of events as you are proposing. However, as it is, it shows that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" is "that day" in verse 3 which refers back to 'the Day of the LORD' in verse 2 which immediately follows verse 1 'concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our. being gathered to Him." There is no transition in subjects from verse 1 to 2 or 3.
In proper order, the revealing of the lawless one precedes the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him and by order of scripture, that revealing follows the 'falling away'.
"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." (v.3)
So, the sequence according to vv. 1-3 then, is:
the falling away (the days of tribulation as described in vv. 4-7 and 9-11)
the revealing (the day of the Lord as described in v. 8 and 12)
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the day of the LORD's arrival, as described in v. 8) and
our being gathered to Him. (rapture)
In proper order, the revealing of the lawless one precedes the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him and by order of scripture, that revealing follows the 'falling away'.
"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed." (v.3)
So, the sequence according to vv. 1-3 then, is:
the falling away (the days of tribulation as described in vv. 4-7 and 9-11)
the revealing (the day of the Lord as described in v. 8 and 12)
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the day of the LORD's arrival, as described in v. 8) and
our being gathered to Him. (rapture)
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I'm saying that ALL OF VERSE 1 relates to "our Rapture" (and its timing--its location will be "IN THE AIR"--and is known here as "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [it involves ONLY US, and NO ONE ELSE!]).
Verse 2's "false claim" (that the false claimants were purporting) has/had NOTHING TO DO with the Subject of [v.1's] "our Rapture" (PAUL is BRINGING *that* Subject TO BEAR on the problem of the "false claim [in v.2]" he's cautioning them NOT to fall for or believe and be troubled / disturbed by).
IOW, v.1 (its TWO CLAUSES) is not what I'm speaking about when referring to "the SEQUENCE" ("order") I've been pointing out.
The "SEQUENCE [/order]" I am pointing out that Paul is repeating 3x in this text is NOT between the two clauses IN VERSE 1 (to be clear)...
... but between Verse 1's Subject (our Rapture IN THE AIR noun-event, PAUL is bringing to the fore) and Verse 2's Subject (the EARTHLY-located time-period known as "the day of the Lord" [which includes JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME, leading UP TO Christ's RETURN to the earth at Rev19])--IOW, how these two items "fit" in relation to each other SEQUENCE-wise / time-wise / order-wise (NOT how Clause A of verse 1 fits in relation sequence-wise / order-wise to Clause B of verse 1. NO! NOT what I am saying.)
Make sense? = )
Verse 2's "false claim" (that the false claimants were purporting) has/had NOTHING TO DO with the Subject of [v.1's] "our Rapture" (PAUL is BRINGING *that* Subject TO BEAR on the problem of the "false claim [in v.2]" he's cautioning them NOT to fall for or believe and be troubled / disturbed by).
IOW, v.1 (its TWO CLAUSES) is not what I'm speaking about when referring to "the SEQUENCE" ("order") I've been pointing out.
The "SEQUENCE [/order]" I am pointing out that Paul is repeating 3x in this text is NOT between the two clauses IN VERSE 1 (to be clear)...
... but between Verse 1's Subject (our Rapture IN THE AIR noun-event, PAUL is bringing to the fore) and Verse 2's Subject (the EARTHLY-located time-period known as "the day of the Lord" [which includes JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME, leading UP TO Christ's RETURN to the earth at Rev19])--IOW, how these two items "fit" in relation to each other SEQUENCE-wise / time-wise / order-wise (NOT how Clause A of verse 1 fits in relation sequence-wise / order-wise to Clause B of verse 1. NO! NOT what I am saying.)
Make sense? = )
Verse 2's "FALSE CLAIM" does not start out with, "our episynagoges unto Him WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL..."
Instead, consider...
[3 No one should deceive you in any way... (regarding the "false claim" just referred to in the previous verse, which false claim is saying, "that the day of the Lord [earthly time-period] IS PRESENT" v.2--[not what's in v.1])]
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
because [it is]
Conj
1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj
3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not [until] [connecting back to verse 2's content re: the earthly-located TIME-PERIOD (the DOTL)--so will be "NOT [/until]"]
Adv
2064 [e]
elthē
ἔλθῃ
shall have come
V-ASA-3S
3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
the
Art-NFS
... [(shall have come) the departure first [<--HERE now v.1's Subject-connection] and (distinctly) the man of sin be revealed..."
(THAT's when "the DOTL" WILL INDEED "[be] present" [until such point, such a statement--as is seen in v.2--is a FALSE CLAIM])...
...but when the man of sin's "whose COMING [advent / arrival]" occurs--THAT point in time and time-period following (which is WELL-BEFORE Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 point in the chronology)--THAT is when the claim will be a TRUE claim "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (i.e. present and unfolding upon the earth [ITS location] over some time LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth in Rev19);
IOW, when the man of sin arrives and is present on the earth (in his specific role--Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100-tis-"A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION, aka SEAL#1]"), AT THAT TIME ALSO will be the arrival of [to "[be] present"] "the day of the Lord" time-period (of the "JUDGMENTs"-unfolding-upon-the-earth [over some time] aspect OF it) and thus a then-true statement "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"...
So, not until 1) "THE departure FIRST" and [distinctly] 2) "the man of sin be revealed" can the statement be a TRUE statement "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (aka the TRIB YRS aspect OF it, per 1Th5:1-3 its "ARRIVAL" [at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] to thereafter unfold upon the earth: i.e. "birth pang" after "birth pang" after "birth pang" [not "one-and-DONE"])
The "whose COMING" of the man of sin, IS the INITIAL "birth PANG [1Th5:1-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" aka SEAL #1 at the START of the "in quickness [noun; Rv1:1/4:1/1:19c]" time-period, commonly called the Tribulation Period ("the day of the Lord" time-period's ARRIVAL--"IN THE NIGHT"--where the "in the twinkling of an eye" thing ['twilight' / sundown] will have just immediately preceded it and will lead into it [the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period commonly known as the [7-yr] TRIB Period or the 70th Week of Daniel--which WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY do not step one foot into (our "change" & "caught up/SNATCH" thing immediately precedes the ARRIVAL of that "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the day of the Lord" time-period which unfolds upon the earth... with JUDGMENTS unfolding OVER SOME TIME, including the 2Th2:10-12 "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion THAT they should BELIEVE THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (for much longer time-period than merely the "singular 24-hr day" of Christ's RETURN to the earth at Rev19)])
Instead, consider...
[3 No one should deceive you in any way... (regarding the "false claim" just referred to in the previous verse, which false claim is saying, "that the day of the Lord [earthly time-period] IS PRESENT" v.2--[not what's in v.1])]
3754 [e]
hoti
ὅτι
because [it is]
Conj
1437 [e]
ean
ἐὰν
if
Conj
3361 [e]
mē
μὴ
not [until] [connecting back to verse 2's content re: the earthly-located TIME-PERIOD (the DOTL)--so will be "NOT [/until]"]
Adv
2064 [e]
elthē
ἔλθῃ
shall have come
V-ASA-3S
3588 [e]
hē
ἡ
the
Art-NFS
... [(shall have come) the departure first [<--HERE now v.1's Subject-connection] and (distinctly) the man of sin be revealed..."
(THAT's when "the DOTL" WILL INDEED "[be] present" [until such point, such a statement--as is seen in v.2--is a FALSE CLAIM])...
...but when the man of sin's "whose COMING [advent / arrival]" occurs--THAT point in time and time-period following (which is WELL-BEFORE Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 point in the chronology)--THAT is when the claim will be a TRUE claim "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (i.e. present and unfolding upon the earth [ITS location] over some time LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth in Rev19);
IOW, when the man of sin arrives and is present on the earth (in his specific role--Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100-tis-"A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION, aka SEAL#1]"), AT THAT TIME ALSO will be the arrival of [to "[be] present"] "the day of the Lord" time-period (of the "JUDGMENTs"-unfolding-upon-the-earth [over some time] aspect OF it) and thus a then-true statement "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"...
So, not until 1) "THE departure FIRST" and [distinctly] 2) "the man of sin be revealed" can the statement be a TRUE statement "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (aka the TRIB YRS aspect OF it, per 1Th5:1-3 its "ARRIVAL" [at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] to thereafter unfold upon the earth: i.e. "birth pang" after "birth pang" after "birth pang" [not "one-and-DONE"])
The "whose COMING" of the man of sin, IS the INITIAL "birth PANG [1Th5:1-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" aka SEAL #1 at the START of the "in quickness [noun; Rv1:1/4:1/1:19c]" time-period, commonly called the Tribulation Period ("the day of the Lord" time-period's ARRIVAL--"IN THE NIGHT"--where the "in the twinkling of an eye" thing ['twilight' / sundown] will have just immediately preceded it and will lead into it [the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period commonly known as the [7-yr] TRIB Period or the 70th Week of Daniel--which WE/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY do not step one foot into (our "change" & "caught up/SNATCH" thing immediately precedes the ARRIVAL of that "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the day of the Lord" time-period which unfolds upon the earth... with JUDGMENTS unfolding OVER SOME TIME, including the 2Th2:10-12 "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion THAT they should BELIEVE THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (for much longer time-period than merely the "singular 24-hr day" of Christ's RETURN to the earth at Rev19)])
^ @Mem ,
Verse 2 is about the false claim "that the day of the Lord is present / is already here"... NOT that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges unto Him" [i.e. our Rapture] is present / is already here.
Conflating these two distinct things leads one to misapprehend what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this text.
He is not conveying "our episynagoges unto Him [our gathering-together unto Him] WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL"...
To think so, is to completely chop out what it is that v.3a's "that day" is specifically pointing back to (the contents of the false claim of verse 2); and to replace it with what Paul is bringing (as correction to that false claim he doesn't want them disturbed by), but the text itself doesn't say this;...
... and to also MIS-define what it is that "the day of the Lord" entails.
It (the DOTL) does not ARRIVE at the point in time of Christ's Second Coming (Rev19), as so many suggest;
1Th5:1-3 makes this clear
(esp when coupled with what Jesus had ALREADY stated about "the BEGINNING of birth pangs"--they BEGIN well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth in Matt24:29-31 / Rev19--indeed 7 years prior to that point, being EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6--which SEALS are included within the "in quickness [noun] time-period per Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c (aka the 7-yr Tribulation Period... not merely the 3.5-yr "GREAT" tribulation, which is only the SECOND HALF of it).
Paul is covering ALL SEVEN [of those] YEARS in this 2Th2 chpt
[plus is covering what must immediately happen "FIRST" before it can truthfully be stated that it "IS PRESENT" like the false claim in v.2 was purporting was already the case--or at least that Paul is pointing out about such a false claim, which had to do with "the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period (NOT "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges UNTO HIM"--NOWHERE does the text state that THIS is the content OF THE FALSE CLAIM, that *this* is what they were claiming "is present / is already here." NO. The text does not tell us that's what they were claiming-falsely)]
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[Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS in 2Th2... just as Jesus is, in Matthew 24:4-thru-both-chpts (24-25); just as Revelation 4-19 is; just as Daniel 9:27a, b, c is; just as Dan11:36-chpt12-end is... etc etc...; Paul is NOT just covering the "singular 24-hr 'day'" of Christ's RETURN to the earth, in Rev19, in this chpt2 of 2Thess (tho that is indeed what v.8b's "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" is referring to, when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him [whereas v.1 is NOT speaking of that point in time, in the chronology--which pertains ONLY to "OUR" episynagoges "UNTO HIM"--and NO ONE ELSE being involved in that "SNATCH" to the "MEETING OF THE LORD... IN THE AIR"!])]
Verse 2 is about the false claim "that the day of the Lord is present / is already here"... NOT that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges unto Him" [i.e. our Rapture] is present / is already here.
Conflating these two distinct things leads one to misapprehend what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this text.
He is not conveying "our episynagoges unto Him [our gathering-together unto Him] WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL"...
To think so, is to completely chop out what it is that v.3a's "that day" is specifically pointing back to (the contents of the false claim of verse 2); and to replace it with what Paul is bringing (as correction to that false claim he doesn't want them disturbed by), but the text itself doesn't say this;...
... and to also MIS-define what it is that "the day of the Lord" entails.
It (the DOTL) does not ARRIVE at the point in time of Christ's Second Coming (Rev19), as so many suggest;
1Th5:1-3 makes this clear
(esp when coupled with what Jesus had ALREADY stated about "the BEGINNING of birth pangs"--they BEGIN well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth in Matt24:29-31 / Rev19--indeed 7 years prior to that point, being EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6--which SEALS are included within the "in quickness [noun] time-period per Rev1:1/4:1/1:19c (aka the 7-yr Tribulation Period... not merely the 3.5-yr "GREAT" tribulation, which is only the SECOND HALF of it).
Paul is covering ALL SEVEN [of those] YEARS in this 2Th2 chpt
[plus is covering what must immediately happen "FIRST" before it can truthfully be stated that it "IS PRESENT" like the false claim in v.2 was purporting was already the case--or at least that Paul is pointing out about such a false claim, which had to do with "the day of the Lord" earthly-located time-period (NOT "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our episynagoges UNTO HIM"--NOWHERE does the text state that THIS is the content OF THE FALSE CLAIM, that *this* is what they were claiming "is present / is already here." NO. The text does not tell us that's what they were claiming-falsely)]
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[Paul is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS in 2Th2... just as Jesus is, in Matthew 24:4-thru-both-chpts (24-25); just as Revelation 4-19 is; just as Daniel 9:27a, b, c is; just as Dan11:36-chpt12-end is... etc etc...; Paul is NOT just covering the "singular 24-hr 'day'" of Christ's RETURN to the earth, in Rev19, in this chpt2 of 2Thess (tho that is indeed what v.8b's "the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" is referring to, when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him [whereas v.1 is NOT speaking of that point in time, in the chronology--which pertains ONLY to "OUR" episynagoges "UNTO HIM"--and NO ONE ELSE being involved in that "SNATCH" to the "MEETING OF THE LORD... IN THE AIR"!])]
1) "the coming of OUR Lord Jesus Christ and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (our Rapture [IN THE AIR])
is NOT defined the same as
2) "the day of the Lord" (an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, that the "false claimants" were purporting "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--It wasn't. And Paul explains WHY that cannot be so. ONE THING must happen "FIRST"...)
[again, "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly as" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... not the END-POINT of all the numerous "birth pangs" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--the START at the same POINT however!]
is NOT defined the same as
2) "the day of the Lord" (an EARTHLY-located TIME-PERIOD of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth, that the "false claimants" were purporting "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"--It wasn't. And Paul explains WHY that cannot be so. ONE THING must happen "FIRST"...)
[again, "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly as" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... not the END-POINT of all the numerous "birth pangs" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--the START at the same POINT however!]
The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
- that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep
As we all plainly see, Paul made it abundantly clear that the resurrection and rapture, occur at His coming, in which those who are alive and remain (Rapture) are gathered together with the the dead in Christ (Resurrection).
So when we look at 2 Thessalonians 2, it doesn’t change.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him. 2 Thessalonians 2:1
- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him
Our gathering together to Him is the resurrection and rapture, that plainly occurs at His coming.
Why are you trying to change the order of things from 1 Thessalonians4 and 2 Thessalonians 2 ?
The coming of the Lord is when the resurrection and rapture take place.
JPT
Yes very true, but as you can see, evidenced by this thread, they are attempting to literally deceive people into believing the word apostasia means something other than its universally-accepted definition. In effect, that’s enough to change the Bible.
Don’t drink the pre-trib kool-aid, whatever you do.
Don’t drink the pre-trib kool-aid, whatever you do.
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Pre-trib rapture doctrine is not from God.
The resurrection and rapture happen at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
The antichrist is also destroyed at His coming.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8
JPT
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