Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[2ndTimothyGroup]

As I have read through the Bible several times, I have logged the many passages that clearly show that God caused people and groups of people to think, act, and speak against their own will. And while a person may not change their view once I have offered all passages collected, a new perspective will at least be offered (and undeniable if at least in specific circumstances).

Here is the first according to a chronological, timeline reading format:

Deuteronomy 2:25 NLT - "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

To those of you who are adamant about our sense of free will, how does this passage make you feel? Is it right or wrong that God would strip the world of this right to view the Jews as they wish?

 

[SomeDisciple]

That's like saying the news takes my free will away by deliberately and repeatedly reporting stupid things that make me angry.

Yes, God intimidates rebellious people, like a police car intimidates someone who is driving 50mph in a school zone. It's not a big deal.

 

[Runningman]

I don't think God uses mind control to make people have a phobia of Jews; that is not what the context of Deuteronomy 2:25 is really saying.

It seems like God created a reason so that people would be afraid of them. In the Bible there are always reasons why people believe, think, and feel the way they do; that's the same as real life too.

Later on in the chapter, the reason people in the world will fear them is because they defeated an entire army, slaughtered their non-combatant men, women, and children, and sacked their towns. That's why people were terrified of them because of their merciless killing of everyone, including babies. It takes a certain kind of violent and unreasonable person to kill a baby and that's terrifying.

Deuteronomy 2:32-37
32“Then King Sihon declared war on us and mobilized his forces at Jahaz. 33But the LORD our God handed him over to us, and we crushed him, his sons, and all his people. 34We conquered all his towns and completely destroyed everyone—men, women, and children. Not a single person was spared. 35We took all the livestock as plunder for ourselves, along with anything of value from the towns we ransacked.
36“The LORD our God also helped us conquer Aroer on the edge of the Arnon Gorge, and the town in the gorge, and the whole area as far as Gilead. No town had walls too strong for us.

 

[Mem]

I don't know if this relates anyhow to the chiasm thread but, the succession of thoughts woven in these threads causes me to consider how God gave Adam the choice to choose or reject His commandment "you should not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and, in choosing to eat Adam foolishly rejected God's wise counsel. Likewise, in Jesus, we are given another opportunity to choose except, where the former choice was one of death through the fruit of a tree, this time the choice is life through faith in Christ's death on a tree. So, in that sense we are saved, or not, albeit altogether indirectly, by what killed us, our free will to choose to believe the truth or the lie.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

By creating circumstances where many died or were slaughtered because of the Jews, their free will reaction would be fear. This is not rocket science.

When the ancient world heard about the terrible plagues which came upon Egypt because of the Israelites, it generated fear. Here's another example from the book of Esther: The Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought their hurt: and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them fell upon all people. And all the rulers of the provinces, and the lieutenants, and the deputies, and officers of the king, helped the Jews; because the fear of Mordecai fell upon them. (Esther 5:2,3).

This does not affect freewill at all. If you went for a hike and a cougar confronted you, your immediate reaction would be fear.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

As I have read through the Bible several times, I have logged the many passages that clearly show that God caused people and groups of people to think, act, and speak against their own will. And while a person may not change their view once I have offered all passages collected, a new perspective will at least be offered (and undeniable if at least in specific circumstances).

Here is the first according to a chronological, timeline reading format:

Deuteronomy 2:25 NLT - "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

To those of you who are adamant about our sense of free will, how does this passage make you feel? Is it right or wrong that God would strip the world of this right to view the Jews as they wish?

https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html

 

[Live4Him3]

If you went for a hike and a cougar confronted you, your immediate reaction would be fear.

Due to my great love for animals, which definitely includes big cats, I'd probably take a picture first...and then either run or cautiously walk away.

Anyhow, I agree with the rest of your post.

We definitely have the option of choosing who or what to fear...even as Jesus Christ said:

Luke chapter 12

[4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
[5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

 

[HeIsHere]

Free will is exhausting alright, too many choices, too little time!

 

[p_rehbein]

CALVIN, OSAS, AND FREE WILL

The Calvinist's and the Calvinist's Lite guys (OSAS'ers) have one wee problem to deal with which they don't seem to be able to do, other than to either deny it's existence, or simply ignore it.

That would be FREE WILL.

Now, as for the Scripture they love to quote about no power able to tear us from Gods hand.......yes, that is true, but they do not properly understand what they are reading (in my opinion). Look at the Scripture passage:

Romans 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So many times I have stated that the Apostle wrote in two distinct styles: Thus Sayeth the Lord, and It would be better that, I would rather that..........these styles greatly change the scripture(s) they embody. The first is Thus Sayeth the Lord.......no argument, no debate, it is thus sayeth the Lord, and that is final. The second, however, is when Paul speaks his mind, his thoughts, feelings, opinions, and gives his advice/instructions as to what he believes would be best for believers/the Church. These ARE NOT commandments from God, they are Paul's words, and they are NOT meant to be carved in stone.

There are numerous examples of these in his Epistles. The first coming to mind is when he speaks about marriage:

1 Corinthians 7:6) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7) For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8) I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9) But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10) And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11) But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12) But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.


Important statements:

"by permission and not of commandment"
"For I would that all men"
"I command ye, yet not I, but the Lord"
"But the rest I speak, I, not the Lord"

He clearly shows the two styles here in this passage. When reading Paul's Epistles, one has to be able to distinguish one from the other to place the proper importance on what is being said.

How does this relate to the passage in Romans? It relates because what Paul is saying are HIS BELIEFS/FEELINGS/DESIRES, and they are not the Commandment of God. As well, he NEVER states that WE can or can not separate ourselves from God, and THAT is where free will comes into the picture. IF one believes we DO have free will, then one must understand that we DO have the power to separate ourselves from God. NO OTHER POWER.......NO OTHER POWER can do that! We, however, can. Either that, or free will is a lie as the Calvinsits believe.

God/Jesus WILL NEVER leave or forsake us........Jesus said that, and it is in Scripture, and it is Truth! But that does not take away our free will to leave or forsake Him!

Folks can believe as they wish. I am simply saying why I believe as I do. There are numerous Scriptures that speak of believers "falling away" and even Christ Himself said it would happen. I believe Christ. And I also understand when Paul is writing "thus sayeth the Lord," and/or "I would rather that."

(edited to say)

Another instance where folks don't understand Paul's style is when he speaks of the grafting in of the natural branches. Won't post it now...........but folks know what it says. Dealing with all Jews being saved in the end...........This was Paul's OWN desire, and that was the context he wrote it in. And, even then, he placed a "disclaimer" in his comments............."if they continue not in disbelief."

Anyway.............all I have to say on this thread.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Free will is exhausting alright, too many choices, too little time!

Therefore "Simplify, Simplify, Simplify".

The focus of the Christian should be on (a) the Gospel to the lost, (b) the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and (c) the edification of the saints. The "Kingdom of God" includes reaching out to the neediest people in our communities, and helping them to come to the Savior, and be self-supporting and upstanding citizens. "And His righteousness" means rebuking the works and workers of darkness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I have read through the Bible several times, I have logged the many passages that clearly show that God caused people and groups of people to think, act, and speak against their own will. And while a person may not change their view once I have offered all passages collected, a new perspective will at least be offered (and undeniable if at least in specific circumstances).

Here is the first according to a chronological, timeline reading format:

Deuteronomy 2:25 NLT - "Beginning today I will make people throughout the earth terrified because of you. When they hear reports about you, they will tremble with dread and fear.'"

If the Lord is going to place fear of the Jews into the hearts and minds of all people on the earth . . . How is that fear of their own free will and choice?

To those of you who are adamant about our sense of free will, how does this passage make you feel? Is it right or wrong that God would strip the world of this right to view the Jews as they wish?

As one who ardently believes in free will, I think the first thing is to define it. Most Calvinists are opponents of "free will" and when they make reference to it, they usually describe it with some kind of power to DO THINGS, which is ridiculous. They demonstrate this with examples of changing the wind direction, and such things as that.

But, no. That's not free will. That's just a fantasy. Free will means the freedom to choose between available options. The key here is the word "available". To be an option, there has to be at least 2 of them. And the person is free to choose either one. That is all free will is. When free will is defined that way, Calvinists realize they can'r argue against it. And they realize then that when the gospel is presented, man does have a choice in the matter: to either believe what God promises or reject the promise.

OK, that said, now to the OP. God putting certain thoughts into the minds of people doesn't limit their free will. Yes, there are examples throughout the Bible. But the key is that God isn't doing this all the time. He does it at times, which is very different.

So no, these examples don't bother me at all. When He wants His people feared, you can bet He will see that through.

But since there is no choice or option available to choose from, their free will isn't being violated.

 

[Beckie]

Back in the Garden there was no need of a Saviour, no need of blood, until they exercised their free will . Kinda paints a ugly picture of mans free will.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Next on the timeline, chronological list is Deut 11:25. It reads as follows:

Deuteronomy 11:25 NLT - "No one will be able to stand against you, for the LORD your God will cause the people to fear and dread you, as he promised, wherever you go in the whole land."

God will put terror and fear into the Seven Nations so as to aid the routing and taking of the Land of Milk and Honey. So who and what is the source of these emotions of fear? Are they of the will of the individual (or group)? Or, is God causing these emotions amongst the enemies of Israel (as the text obviously concludes)? God doesn't do this to one or two people, but to all people in the land. God issues fear into all people and against their own choice . . . their own free will.

Was this right? Was this fair? Would the abominations of the Seven Nations have acted the way they did if the Lord had not caused them to be as they were?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I don't know if this relates anyhow to the chiasm thread but, the succession of thoughts woven in these threads causes me to consider how God gave Adam the choice to choose or reject His commandment "you should not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and, in choosing to eat Adam foolishly rejected God's wise counsel. Likewise, in Jesus, we are given another opportunity to choose except, where the former choice was one of death through the fruit of a tree, this time the choice is life through faith in Christ's death on a tree. So, in that sense we are saved, or not, albeit altogether indirectly, by what killed us, our free will to choose to believe the truth or the lie.

Didn't the Lord have an Eternal Plan? Or, was the Eternal Plan overthrown by measly creations?

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT - "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. 10 God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."

From the middle of the Plan? No, there was a Plan from the beginning.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

As one who ardently believes in free will, I think the first thing is to define it. Most Calvinists are opponents of "free will" and when they make reference to it, they usually describe it with some kind of power to DO THINGS, which is ridiculous. They demonstrate this with examples of changing the wind direction, and such things as that.

But, no. That's not free will. That's just a fantasy. Free will means the freedom to choose between available options. The key here is the word "available". To be an option, there has to be at least 2 of them. And the person is free to choose either one. That is all free will is. When free will is defined that way, Calvinists realize they can'r argue against it. And they realize then that when the gospel is presented, man does have a choice in the matter: to either believe what God promises or reject the promise.

OK, that said, now to the OP. God putting certain thoughts into the minds of people doesn't limit their free will. Yes, there are examples throughout the Bible. But the key is that God isn't doing this all the time. He does it at times, which is very different.

So no, these examples don't bother me at all. When He wants His people feared, you can bet He will see that through.

But since there is no choice or option available to choose from, their free will isn't being violated.

I appreciate what you wrote. Personally, I believe in a limited source of freewill . . . much like a parent to child relationship.

That said, there are many, many more examples ahead of us that most people are not aware of. It will get interesting, to say the least.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Back in the Garden there was no need of a Saviour, no need of blood, until they exercised their free will . Kinda paints a ugly picture of mans free will.

You bet there was a need of a Savior. Why? Because Jesus is that Tree of Life, the Tree that would ultimately be responsible for dissociating the Curse of the Lord from the Hearts of the Elect; those whom the Lord had chosen before the foundation of the world. And more, the Eternal Plan of God was that humanity would have to wait thousands of years for Christ to die so that all who believed in Jesus would be made "Right" with God.

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

And as mentioned, this was the Eternal Plan created by God, written upon a Heavenly Scroll; a Plan fulfilled by and through Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:10-12 NIV - "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence."

So, do we believe the Bible when it tells us that there is an Eternal Plan that revolves around the Tree of Life, who is Christ? Or, do we find a way around this crystal clear Biblical text?

 

[PennEd]

Hmm...


John 6:37-39

New King James Version

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day.

 

[pottersclay]

A few yrs ago when i was teaching a bible study i printed a sign that read "help wanted but not needed".
I explained the sign as an example of Gods calling on our life.
We do have free will but we also have a sovereign God over all whos will trumps all.
It is his will that will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Its his design, he is the potter we are just the clay.
GOD controls the evil and the good. He declares what is righteous and what is not. Who are we to question.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Back in the Garden there was no need of a Saviour, no need of blood, until they exercised their free will . Kinda paints a ugly picture of mans free will.

It goes both ways. Yes, everyone chooses to sin. But, salvation is based on being free to believe the gospel.

 

[Live4Him3]

Next on the timeline, chronological list is Deut 11:25. It reads as follows:

Deuteronomy 11:25 NLT - "No one will be able to stand against you, for the LORD your God will cause the people to fear and dread you, as he promised, wherever you go in the whole land."

God will put terror and fear into the Seven Nations so as to aid the routing and taking of the Land of Milk and Honey. So who and what is the source of these emotions of fear? Are they of the will of the individual (or group)? Or, is God causing these emotions amongst the enemies of Israel (as the text obviously concludes)? God doesn't do this to one or two people, but to all people in the land. God issues fear into all people and against their own choice . . . their own free will.

Was this right? Was this fair? Would the abominations of the Seven Nations have acted the way they did if the Lord had not caused them to be as they were?

Hey, 2ndTimothyGroup.

Well, you know that you and I have seen eye to eye in the past, and I've prayed for a certain situation in your life in the past as well. I'm mentioning this to simply let you know that I'm NOT writing to you now as your enemy, but rather in a friendly manner.

That said and meant, I have to say that I believe that you've totally missed the mark on this road which you're presently headed down. I could easily substantiate the free will of man from scriptures galore, but I'll just address the scripture that you've cited here for now.

Here it is in the KJV, although my same point could be made from the NLT that you cited:

"There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you." (Deut. 11:25)

"As he hath said unto you"?

Yes, "as he hath said unto you".

Well, where did he say such a thing to them before?

Here's one place:

"Rise ye up, take your journey, and pass over the river Arnon: behold, I have given into thine hand Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, and his land: begin to possess it, and contend with him in battle. This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee." (Deut. 2:24-25)

How was "the LORD your God" going to "lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon" (Deut. 11:25)?

Well, he was going to lay it upon them because they were going to "hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee" (Deut. 2:25) because they were going to "hear report" of how God delivered Sihon the Amorite, king of Heshbon, into the hands of the children of Israel.

How does this allegedly violate their free will?

I mean, they were simply going to fear and dread because they expected the same type of judgment to fall upon them as fell upon Sihon the Amorite, right?

Was there any way for them to escape such a judgment?

I'd heartily suggest to you that there was.

For example, consider Rahab the harlot and her dealings with the two spies that she hid upon her rooftop:

Joshua chapter 2

[8] And before they were laid down, she came up unto them upon the roof;
[9] And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
[10] For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
[11] And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
[12] Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my father's house, and give me a true token:
[13] And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.
[14] And the men answered her, Our life for yours, if ye utter not this our business. And it shall be, when the LORD hath given us the land, that we will deal kindly and truly with thee.

In the case of the inhabitants of Jericho, the Israelites terror had fallen upon all the inhabitants of that land because they had heard how the LORD dried up the Red Sea for them, and what they had done unto the two kings of the Amorites.

Isn't this the same exact type of situation that we're presently considering in Deuteronomy chapter 11?

It certainly seems so to me.

Well, in the case of Jericho, Rahab made a pact with the Israelites in which her life and the lives of her family members were spared, so isn't it quite possible that the peoples' of the nations that you referred to could have done the same?

My point is that they only needed to fear because they were enemies of the LORD.

If, however, THEY CHOSE TO FOLLOW THE LORD...well, then that would have/could have changed things drastically.

With such being the case, why isn't FREE WILL a variable here?