Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
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Well if man has a will, then he can choose. That is really what the debate is about, no? Free does not mean no consequences in this particular topic I would think. I think you might be splitting hairs here. Uh huh.
Well hang on there. Dead as in 6 ft under? No. Dead as in trespasses and sin. Fudging a tad there. The entire topic being considered is whether those separated from God can reach out to Him? I mean the Bible does say that the fool says there is no God. We are all born with the innate knowledge of 'something more' . This is not philosophy, but physical fact when all societies desire to worship something.
Don't come back with 'yes but'. I'm not talking about the yesbuts. I am talking about the fact that God says we have no excuse. He ought to know.
Well hang on there. Dead as in 6 ft under? No. Dead as in trespasses and sin. Fudging a tad there. The entire topic being considered is whether those separated from God can reach out to Him? I mean the Bible does say that the fool says there is no God. We are all born with the innate knowledge of 'something more' . This is not philosophy, but physical fact when all societies desire to worship something.
Don't come back with 'yes but'. I'm not talking about the yesbuts. I am talking about the fact that God says we have no excuse. He ought to know.
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Well, we have both changed our views in that case, because I once understood it as you say you see 'it' now. Huh.
Will get back to you on this later on. Just wanted to let you know things can sometimes go either way as far as changing one's mind.
Will get back to you on this later on. Just wanted to let you know things can sometimes go either way as far as changing one's mind.
What I am interested in accomplishing in this thread is to share ideas with each other. I detest arguing and the senseless waste that comes from it. But as said, I really, REALLY enjoy it when we posit ideas to each other for the opposite to consider. That's what get's me excited about coming to this place. But, and as you know, this rarely happens. We jab at each other with knives the size of skyscrapers.
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I'm not really sure if humans have free will or not. This is something that amazes and mystifies me. That said, if we go back and look at all of the Scriptures that I have posted, I am showing that in these circumstances, the choice to think, feel, and act has been taken from or forced upon by God Himself. I realize that some of my opinions might be wrong . . . I don't claim utter perfection and perfect knowledge. But, I do believe that when I am done, I will have provided one of the single most exhaustive discourses on how the Lord is Truly Omnipotent.
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Nah. Put down the knives as far as I am concerned. I have already been made a kabob by a soul sucking individual on this site and have no desire to repeat the experience. I actually agree with your statement that we can be wrong. Any thinking person with some experience you might expect to share that same reflection. But no. We have stockade Christianity where the only thing visible from the outside are the guns pointing through the little holes and shooting unholy and self righteous ammo from a stockpile years in the making.
We speak of the truth and knowing the truth but I am not sure we really understand the concept. But I will respond later as I said.
We speak of the truth and knowing the truth but I am not sure we really understand the concept. But I will respond later as I said.
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The Bible says: They (Nephilim) were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Some claim God flooded the earth because of the actions of angels, while Scripture says it was because of humans.
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that
every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted
that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said,
“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals,
the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Notice nothing is said of so-called angels in human form, or the imagined off-spring of such.
Some claim God flooded the earth because of the actions of angels, while Scripture says it was because of humans.
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that
every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted
that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said,
“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals,
the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Notice nothing is said of so-called angels in human form, or the imagined off-spring of such.
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm the one with verses that actually SAY what I believe. You didn't share any verses that actually SAY what you believe.
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but a very backward person would think that of someone who isn't backward.
No one thinks they are going backwards. Everyone thinks they are right. No one wants to be wrong, even you or me.
When you are challenged by another view, do you just dig in your heels and close your eyes, or do you do what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, beause that is what I do.
Those who make claims should be able to quote verses that actually SAY what they claim. You haven't done that. So I'm not the backward one.
I've given you verses that DO say what I believe.
If I'm so wrong, how come you haven't tried to address the verses I quote and explain how they don't say what I believe they say?
That's the least you should do if you are right and I am backward.
I am convinced that truth ALWAYS has an answer to any question. And can refute any untrue claim.
So, instead of just claiming that I am "so backward", why don't you take the time to explain how I am? Can you do that?
If you really do have the truth, you would be able to. Those who don't just throw insults and ad hominems around.
I'm the one with verses that actually SAY what I believe. You didn't share any verses that actually SAY what you believe.
Maybe it hasn't occurred to you, but a very backward person would think that of someone who isn't backward.
No one thinks they are going backwards. Everyone thinks they are right. No one wants to be wrong, even you or me.
When you are challenged by another view, do you just dig in your heels and close your eyes, or do you do what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, beause that is what I do.
Those who make claims should be able to quote verses that actually SAY what they claim. You haven't done that. So I'm not the backward one.
I've given you verses that DO say what I believe.
If I'm so wrong, how come you haven't tried to address the verses I quote and explain how they don't say what I believe they say?
That's the least you should do if you are right and I am backward.
I am convinced that truth ALWAYS has an answer to any question. And can refute any untrue claim.
So, instead of just claiming that I am "so backward", why don't you take the time to explain how I am? Can you do that?
If you really do have the truth, you would be able to. Those who don't just throw insults and ad hominems around.
The pettiness drives me "insane" - figuratively speaking, that is. The fact that "we" go at each other so hard around here proves that one or more still possesses the Satan as their Spiritual Father. It concerns me when I retort back, in that I question my own self and the status of my "father."
I wish we could just offer ideas, consider them, perhaps say things like, "I see where you're coming from . . . very interesting" and leave it at that. But we don't. It is heart-breaking.
I wish we could just offer ideas, consider them, perhaps say things like, "I see where you're coming from . . . very interesting" and leave it at that. But we don't. It is heart-breaking.
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I have been trying to follow the timeline, chronological list of events that show the Omnipotence of God. I admit that I am carousing over my commentary and re-cataloging some passages to make it easier to find them in terms of the "free will" concept. This means that I am not offering the most powerful passages first, such as the one below. I am breaking my little rule of following the Timeline objective by offering the below passages that are difficult to refute. It seems that now, though, is a good time to interject:
Ecclesiastes 6:10-12 NET - "Whatever has happened was foreordained, and what happens to a person was also foreknown. It is useless for him to argue with God about his fate because God is more powerful than he is. 11 The more one argues with words, the less he accomplishes. How does that benefit him? 12 For no one knows what is best for a person during his life - during the few days of his fleeting life - for they pass away like a shadow. Nor can anyone tell him what the future will hold for him on earth."
Those of you who disagree with the concept that I am offering, go ahead and kick against the goads with God. Either Eccl 6:10-12 is True or the Bible is telling a lie.
I'm sticking with what the Bible says regardless of what any mere, meager human crams down my throat.
Ecclesiastes 6:10-12 NET - "Whatever has happened was foreordained, and what happens to a person was also foreknown. It is useless for him to argue with God about his fate because God is more powerful than he is. 11 The more one argues with words, the less he accomplishes. How does that benefit him? 12 For no one knows what is best for a person during his life - during the few days of his fleeting life - for they pass away like a shadow. Nor can anyone tell him what the future will hold for him on earth."
Those of you who disagree with the concept that I am offering, go ahead and kick against the goads with God. Either Eccl 6:10-12 is True or the Bible is telling a lie.
I'm sticking with what the Bible says regardless of what any mere, meager human crams down my throat.
God is not the Author of unbelief, nor the Cause of wickedness. To say such is offensive to the Goodness and Majesty of the Lord imho. He IS the Author of Faith, and the Cause of All Goodness. As it is written: "13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (Jam 1:13-17).
Notice the Clear Distinction between Good and Evil in the Epistle of St. James above. Every Good and Perfect Gift comes from the Father of Lights. But every EVIL AND SIN comes from MAN'S OWN EVIL DESIRE and that is why man has no excuse for the sins that he commits.
God is not equally and in the same way the Cause of the Treason of the traitor Judas, and either the calling or the heroic labors of St. Paul or the other Apostles. The one is His Perfect Will, which He Himself works in His believers. The other He only PERMITS with sadness.
Again, as it is written, in Genesis 6 itself: "5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." (Gen 6:5-6)
God delights with joy in those who serve Him with Love in response to His Grace. He has displeasure and grief over those whose inclination of their own heart - not caused by His tempting but enticed by their own evil desire - is wicked and not aligned with His Will. God Bless.
16Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." (Jam 1:13-17).
Notice the Clear Distinction between Good and Evil in the Epistle of St. James above. Every Good and Perfect Gift comes from the Father of Lights. But every EVIL AND SIN comes from MAN'S OWN EVIL DESIRE and that is why man has no excuse for the sins that he commits.
God is not equally and in the same way the Cause of the Treason of the traitor Judas, and either the calling or the heroic labors of St. Paul or the other Apostles. The one is His Perfect Will, which He Himself works in His believers. The other He only PERMITS with sadness.
Again, as it is written, in Genesis 6 itself: "5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was altogether evil all the time. 6And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." (Gen 6:5-6)
God delights with joy in those who serve Him with Love in response to His Grace. He has displeasure and grief over those whose inclination of their own heart - not caused by His tempting but enticed by their own evil desire - is wicked and not aligned with His Will. God Bless.
I just ran across some notes on: Jeremiah 32:23 NKJV, which is: - 23 'And they came in and took possession of it, but they have not obeyed Your voice or walked in Your law. They have done nothing of all that You commanded them to do; therefore You have caused all this calamity to come upon them.
I wrote the following to consider:
Jeremiah is charging the Lord, in his prayer, that it was God that has done all of these destructive things to Judah. Why? Because Judah refused to obey, to do as the Lord had commanded them. Yes, the Lord [did] command Israel and Judah to obey just as all are commanded to obey. But, how can one obey if they possess the Sinful Nature? Do you see? There is this innate catch-22 on every page of the Bible, for the Lord places His commands upon us, but His Chosen Ones cannot respond. This gives the appearance that God is not in control, that His Plan cannot work nor be successful. But it is quite the opposite: Because God is able to harden our hearts as well as unharden them whenever He so chooses, this is the ultimate form of control over His Creation. Did not the Lord harden the heart of Peter three times? Was this not the Lord that led Peter into the sin of denying the Lord Almighty three times? If God hardened Peter's heart, how could Peter possibly be responsible for his thoughts and quite frankly, his lack of actions? Certainly, before his heart was hardened, he was ready to fight for the life of Christ.
The conclusion must be this: If God has a Plan that will be fulfilled, then whatever plans we think we have designed and fulfilled, they were not ours. Consider a portion of the Lord's Prayer: ". . . And do not lead me into temptation, but deliver me from evil."
Wait a second! Who is Jesus teaching us to pray to? "Our Father who art in Heaven," that is who!
It simply does not matter what we think about all that is happening. What is important for us to understand is that there [is] a Holy Plan and that there is not one thing that we can do to change or overthrow it. For even if we intend our poor behavior to be of disadvantage for one, God will use it for the benefit of His cause. Therefore, God is in control of literally all events and people. If the Lord wants to prevent actions and behaviors in a person, He has proven over and over again that He can do absolutely whatever He desires. And He reminds us of this in Vs 27.
I wrote the following to consider:
Jeremiah is charging the Lord, in his prayer, that it was God that has done all of these destructive things to Judah. Why? Because Judah refused to obey, to do as the Lord had commanded them. Yes, the Lord [did] command Israel and Judah to obey just as all are commanded to obey. But, how can one obey if they possess the Sinful Nature? Do you see? There is this innate catch-22 on every page of the Bible, for the Lord places His commands upon us, but His Chosen Ones cannot respond. This gives the appearance that God is not in control, that His Plan cannot work nor be successful. But it is quite the opposite: Because God is able to harden our hearts as well as unharden them whenever He so chooses, this is the ultimate form of control over His Creation. Did not the Lord harden the heart of Peter three times? Was this not the Lord that led Peter into the sin of denying the Lord Almighty three times? If God hardened Peter's heart, how could Peter possibly be responsible for his thoughts and quite frankly, his lack of actions? Certainly, before his heart was hardened, he was ready to fight for the life of Christ.
The conclusion must be this: If God has a Plan that will be fulfilled, then whatever plans we think we have designed and fulfilled, they were not ours. Consider a portion of the Lord's Prayer: ". . . And do not lead me into temptation, but deliver me from evil."
Wait a second! Who is Jesus teaching us to pray to? "Our Father who art in Heaven," that is who!
It simply does not matter what we think about all that is happening. What is important for us to understand is that there [is] a Holy Plan and that there is not one thing that we can do to change or overthrow it. For even if we intend our poor behavior to be of disadvantage for one, God will use it for the benefit of His cause. Therefore, God is in control of literally all events and people. If the Lord wants to prevent actions and behaviors in a person, He has proven over and over again that He can do absolutely whatever He desires. And He reminds us of this in Vs 27.
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"yes but"
Choice is not freewill.
Choice is an instrument of government, The One who gives the choice and who controls the outcome of whatever choice is made, He it is who is the only one with free sovereign will.
If they had freewill they could devise an option of their own, they could simply fold their arms and refuse to make a choice at all, no no they must choose, they have no choice but to choose between the options given to them.
And the options were serve Me, in which case they will be doing God's will, or perish in which case they will have no more will at all.
And
You are overlooking Big Chief SittingBull and all the generations of injuns who preceded him. They didn't have a choice did they. The Egyptians didn't have a choice, no only the Jews had the choice because God of His own freewill set the choice before them.
This is important to your second point for being dead in trespasses and sins means we are dead to God. We simply don't have the ability to obey or even hear Him unless He first takes the initiative. He must give us ears to hear Him and eyes to see Him.
Of a truth the new birth comes first, God brings us ALIVE when we hear the gospel, being made alive we then respond to Him with faith which also is imparted to us.
God doesn't accept our freewill He over rules it and subjugates it to His own.
I fully grant to you that we can withold that from Him, even after we is saved we can backslide to the position of following our own will but then during that time we are saved but we are dead to God and totally unable to do Hill will. And backsliding to follow our own will is not free, it will bring us into all kinds of bondage and sorrow. WHY? because our will is in bondage, The will of our flesh and our minds are set at emnity with God.
Our will is our very selves which we must present to God a living sacrifice in order to be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we might know what is that good and perfect will of God.
Choice is not freewill.
Choice is an instrument of government, The One who gives the choice and who controls the outcome of whatever choice is made, He it is who is the only one with free sovereign will.
If they had freewill they could devise an option of their own, they could simply fold their arms and refuse to make a choice at all, no no they must choose, they have no choice but to choose between the options given to them.
And the options were serve Me, in which case they will be doing God's will, or perish in which case they will have no more will at all.
And
You are overlooking Big Chief SittingBull and all the generations of injuns who preceded him. They didn't have a choice did they. The Egyptians didn't have a choice, no only the Jews had the choice because God of His own freewill set the choice before them.
This is important to your second point for being dead in trespasses and sins means we are dead to God. We simply don't have the ability to obey or even hear Him unless He first takes the initiative. He must give us ears to hear Him and eyes to see Him.
Of a truth the new birth comes first, God brings us ALIVE when we hear the gospel, being made alive we then respond to Him with faith which also is imparted to us.
God doesn't accept our freewill He over rules it and subjugates it to His own.
I fully grant to you that we can withold that from Him, even after we is saved we can backslide to the position of following our own will but then during that time we are saved but we are dead to God and totally unable to do Hill will. And backsliding to follow our own will is not free, it will bring us into all kinds of bondage and sorrow. WHY? because our will is in bondage, The will of our flesh and our minds are set at emnity with God.
Our will is our very selves which we must present to God a living sacrifice in order to be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we might know what is that good and perfect will of God.