Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[Polar]

And that is precisely the issue. Since Calvinists do not believe that an unsaved person has the ability to believe apart from being regenerated first, they have to attack "free will" and freedom to choose, whatever. Either way, their position is refuted.

Well the op says he is not a Calvinist and I see no reason to believe he is hiding the fact he is one. I have debated with some who do refer to themselves as Calvinist and there are different flavors even then. To say some are ugly and negate any love they might profess to have, would be putting it mildly.

Yes I know about the 'no choice' deal aka TULIP and total depravity and the other supposedly irrefutable and written in stone observations of those who adhere to that persuasion.

I'm very glad to see common sense here. It is sad how many totally misunderstand what is meant by "hardened by God".

Yeah I don't think that can be ignored or explained away. It has a place in our understanding and would not be there if not so.

 

[Magenta]

I used to live in an apartment with a friend who is now deceased. We came out west together

In this apartment was a cyan stove, and a cyan chesterfield

I saw the stove as being turquoise. My friend saw it as being green.

I saw the chesterfield as being green. She saw it as being turquoise.

Sometimes Scripture is like that

 

[Polar]

Mahy people reject the idea that God has a Plan for our lives. But, this simply doesn't make any sense. Many believe that God places us in certain positions, gives us our spouses, etc . . . yet when it comes to our lives, nearly everyone says that THEY choose and decide what takes place in their lives. But was Job wrong when he told God that His Plans cannot be overturned should He have them? Consider what Paul wrote to Timothy below . . . the Plan of living a Holy Life.

Personally, I have always thought to ask God about any of my plans. We are not all 'special' though or standouts like David, Paul or John.

2 Timothy 1:9 NLT - "For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time--to show us his grace through Christ Jesus."

If this is the Plan of God, and if Job is right, which is that God's Plan are never over-turned, are we sure that we "chose" God? Or, is it possible that God chooses His Holy Elect SO THAT they will live a Holy Life? If this is the Plan of God, how can we say that it is our Plan?

Right. God's plan was always salvation but I do not see in that understanding, that we have no choice. Seems the emphasis is ALWAYS on the Son. I think when 'plans' are being spoken of here, that is means the ultimate planning of God and how He directs the world according to that end. When I read of people saying it was God's will to take little Johnny by sending a car to smoosh him, I shudder. I think God can and does bring good out of the 'all things' the Bible speaks of, but I don't believe God had little Johnny taken as part of that bigger plan. God was not planning evil against Job, but the devil was and God allowed all the disasters. Did God plan those disasters? I don't believe we find that in scripture, but God also will be acknowledged in the 'all things' as He responded to Job, excuse me, but who do you think you are?

But then, He restores Job and does not leave Job with a hard heart as Job did not have that hard heart Pharaoh apparently had.

Look at what Ezekiel has to say about living this Holy Life (and note the words SO THAT):

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NLT - "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations."

That reads like what happens at salvation. We cannot follow God's decrees without His Spirit as is shown all through scripture. God follows through on these words when we accept Christ. These things then follow in those who have accepted Him.

What we have just read is the workings of the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. We receive Spiritual Circumcision SO THAT we will follow the decrees of the Lord, careful to obey His regulations. Obviously, this means that we CANNOT live this way until we receive Circumcision of Heart. We cannot choose to be the person described in Ezekiel above until we are lifted of the Curse. We do not have the ability to make these choices of obedience. And more, this is the Operation of Faith, as the KJV puts it.

Colossians 2:12 KJV - "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Salvations is entirely the Work of God, and not of ourselves.

Hmmm. Will save that for tomorrow.

 

[Polar]

I used to live in an apartment with a friend who is now deceased. We came out west together

In this apartment was a cyan stove, and a cyan chesterfield

I saw the stove as being turquoise. My friend saw it as being green.

I saw the chesterfield as being green. She saw it as being turquoise.

Sometimes Scripture is like that

aha! But that color, cyan, is between blue and green on the visible spectrum of light. So were you both right? I agree that scripture can be like that though.

Life experience? Personality? Different understandings of time and space? Some think the world is flat and under a dome.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Well again I read all of your post and I appreciate what you say. I disagree with your conclusion regarding the hardening of the heart. I did expressly illustrate the fact that the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It would seem that God remarked on that and continued the process (not trying to be smart).



I don't understand what you mean by that. Probably not going to be back on here tonight so next time.

You certainly will not be accused of over-simplification. That's a good thing.

I hear what you're saying. Regarding Pharaoh, there are other translations that describe his heart (though I recognize that you may not appreciate the translation itself):

Exodus 8:15 NLT - "But when Pharaoh saw that relief had come, he became stubborn. He refused to listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had predicted."

Also, the Bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. LOL

Exodus 4:21 KJV - "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

The reason for why I choose to believe that God hardened his heart is because on many occasions, it is said that God did what He did to prove His Power.

Romans 9:17 NLT - "For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth."

I will always lean towards the greater reasoning.

I appreciate your dialog, Polar. Thank you!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

When I read of people saying it was God's will to take little Johnny by sending a car to smoosh him, I shudder.

I have to run, but I after my Spiritual experience, I came to realize the death, and I mean any form of death, is an escape from this place that is the world of the Devil. My experience was so incredible, that I realized that even the death of the woman who was raped so much that it killed her, to die was a gift. I found out that it doesn't matter how a person dies, we just need to die. We must pass from this form to the next form, for when we are in the presence of our Peaceful and Loving God, the manner in which we died is irrelevant. In fact, we will wish that we had undergone that even years before . . . even the same death. It really doesn't matter how we die . . . death is a gift of escapement.

Psalm 116:15 KJV - "Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints."

Our humanity gets in the way of understanding the Lord's Way . . . and His Ways are not like our ways. His Understanding is not like our limited understanding.

Isaiah 55:8 NKJV - "For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD."

Have a great night.

 

[Magenta]

aha! But that color, cyan, is between blue and green on the visible spectrum of light.
So were you both right? I agree that scripture can be like that though.

Life experience? Personality? Different understandings of time and space? Some think the world is flat and under a dome.

Yes, cyan is equal parts blue and green It is the opposite of red. And, magenta does not exist

One thing to keep in mind: if anyone thinks nobody has a choice about anything, there is no point opposing
anyone you disagree with because they had and/or have no choice in the matter of what they believe

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes, cyan is equal parts blue and green It is the opposite of red. And, magenta does not exist

One thing to keep in mind: if anyone thinks nobody has a choice about anything, there is no point opposing
anyone you disagree with because they had and/or have no choice in the matter of what they believe

Paul spoke along these lines . . . hehe

Romans 9:18-21 NLT - "So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. 19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?" 20 No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?"

This idea of free will is really something else, is it not?

 

[Magenta]

Paul spoke along these lines . . . hehe

Romans 9:18-21 NLT - "So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. 19 Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?" 20 No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?"

This idea of free will is really something else, is it not?

Yes, and as you know, I do not care for the term free will at all. Self will, yes.

Now self will can either be aligned with God's will, or opposed to it.

What perplexes me is, since the natural man cannot accept the things that come from God, isn't it true
that our hearts must be changed before we can believe? And yet there are those who say we are free
to believe. Free, as a slave to sin, to believe something we are in rebellion against. Yes, that perplexes me.

However, I know we are all quite different and God can work in and with any set of circumstances

 

[Magenta]

From Ephesians 2:4-7


I will redo this one. Key text is missing

Because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ
even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God
raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 2:13-14

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes, and as you know, I do not care for the term free will at all. Self will, yes.

Actually, I didn't know that, but know that I pay attention to what you say. I appreciate all of your ideas and knowledge. I value you.

isn't it true
that our hearts must be changed before we can believe?

I don't see how it can be any other way. I've studied Circumcision of the Heart beyond imagination, and what I've found is that the physical healings of Jesus were a reflection of this same Circumcision. When a person was healed of being unable to walk, they are first healed, and THEN they get up and walk. A blind person is first healed, and THEN they can see. But the healing comes from Christ first. The incredible fact that you have created panels that deal with Circumcision of the Heart proves to me that you recognize the value of this core doctrine. Your panels themselves say something to the effect of "I will give you a new heart SO THAT you will obey my degrees and Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind."

Until we are relieved of that Curse, there is no hope, for no one can relieve themselves of that Curse. To be redeemed of the Curse is the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and it becomes the Effect of Christ's Work and Purpose. Until Jesus removes that Curse, there is no hope of reflecting the Glory of God "more and more."

And yet there are those who say we are free
to believe.

I hear you. What I have found is that we are to never stop asking, seeking, and knocking. This task is never complete, for there is always more to learn, discover, and uncover. I am utterly convinced that the Bible says what it says in order to keep the Mysterious Plan just that . . . a Mystery. And the idea itself denotes that we should become something like a detective. In fact, that's what happened to me. I read of this Mysterious Plan in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3 (after my Spiritual experience) and realized that it was True . . . I couldn't honestly say that I knew what Paul was talking about. So, I began reading the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that I could answer that question, "What is the Mysterious Plan?" I had to know! My former wife used to say that I thought like a lawyer, so I took that mindset to the Bible and applied it. Amazingly, God showed me this Plan and it blows me away each day of my life. I simply cannot believe that God had mankind write down the things that we did, for the Bible is the single most incredible thing ever written. It IS Power itself; it exudes Power. Power is the single most important thing that any person should pull out of the Bible, for if they do, they will gain a reverent Fear of the Lord, and where there is Fear of the Lord, we will find Holy Wisdom.

Sigh . . . I could keep writing and writing.

I appreciate you so much!

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

From Ephesians 2:4-7


I will redo this one. Key text is missing

Because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ
even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God
raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...

There you go! I'm not sure if I have this one added to my list of great verses that support the choice of God verses the choice of the mere human. Thanks!!

 

[Evmur]

You are really not making the case you think you are. I understand you are firmly embedded in those thoughts. That's fine but I don't follow what you are saying other than you do not believe mankind has free will. Or can choose which would sadly indicates no decision making abilities.



Then I must be here by design and yet I will not agree with you. Perhaps God is trying to show you something different through me? You did open that door. Talk later or read my posts to the op that I hope tack on here sometime.

Man's perfect freedom is to be in GOD'S WILL, that's what we are created for, to be the expression of GOD [who is invisible] of His will, of who He is.

When we is in God's good and perfect will we is like fishes swimming happily in our watery home. Man outside of God's will is just like a fish flapping around on the river bank.

The doctrine of human freewill is a distrust that God's will for us the best, so much better than we could ever imagine for ourselves.

The doctrine of human freewill is a drawing back from God.

 

[Evmur]

Thank you for that most excellent explanation, Billy!

Co-incidentally (or not LOL), I have been working on getting this panel ready to post in my Scripture Art thread

The Holy Ghost

 

[Evmur]

You are totally missing Paul's words. So let's go over it again.

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

If you don't see a choice being made in the bolded words above, you just aren't looking. When you are told to "stop", you have the choice to either do it or not do it.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Again, the bolded words in v.16 PROVES that a person chooses to whom they "offer themselves" to be slaves.

So focus on the action words of "offer yourselves", "do not let", "do not offer yourselves" rather than the nouns like "slaves".

btw, does a slave owner control the thinking of the slave? yes or no?

You are not describing freedom you are describing bondage. Christ doesn't command us "stop sinning" He takes our sins away. He imparts to us His life.

The slave may thinks as he likes but because he is a slave he must do the will of his owner. He has a will but it is in bondage.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that is precisely the issue. Since Calvinists do not believe that an unsaved person has the ability to believe apart from being regenerated first, they have to attack "free will" and freedom to choose, whatever. Either way, their position is refuted.

Well the op says he is not a Calvinist and I see no reason to believe he is hiding the fact he is one.

It seems there are many who are being taught by their pastors the "reformed way" and they don't even know anything about Calvin the man or his theology. They just know what they are taught, which is Calvinism. Many pastors just don't advertise that fact.

I have debated with some who do refer to themselves as Calvinist and there are different flavors even then. To say some are ugly and negate any love they might profess to have, would be putting it mildly.

Yes, 3-, 4-, and 5 pointers, for sure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, and as you know, I do not care for the term free will at all. Self will, yes.

Now self will can either be aligned with God's will, or opposed to it.

Good point! I think the best term is "freedom of choice", which leaves the will out of it.

When the term "free will" is used, it suggests that man has to will his belief in the gospel. Of course, no one ever "wills" what he/she believes. They just do it. It's crazy to even think we need to "will" what we believe.

The issue is freedom, which God has given to eveyrone. That's why He created mankind with a conscience.

What perplexes me is, since the natural man cannot accept the things that come from God, isn't it true
that our hearts must be changed before we can believe?

Good question. 1 Cor 2 actually addresses this question.

The point of ch 2 is found in 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

So Paul wasn't speaking of the simple straightforward doctrines that anyone can understand, which include salvation. Because salvation is simply a choice whether to believe God's promise of eternal life through faith in His Son, or not. It is the deeper doctrines that unregenerate man cannot understand.

Speaking of "deeper doctrines", then Paul wrote 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

This is one of the reasons God gives His Holy Spirit to believers; to understand the "deep things of God", which the unbeliever cannot understand. And this is what Paul meant by "message of wisdom" in v.6.

And Titus 2:11 proves that unregenerate man can understand the gospel, since salvation is offered to everyone.

And yet there are those who say we are free to believe. Free, as a slave to sin, to believe something we are in rebellion against. Yes, that perplexes me.

While unregenerate man IS a slave to sin, in the sense that he has no divine righteousness in him, unlike believers, unregenerate man CAN be very moral. Mormons are examples of morality. They make great neighbors. So are non-radicalized Muslims.

However, Isa 64:6 says that "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags". This is literally "used menstral rags" in the Hebrew. This verse teaches that man's BEST morality without the power of the Holy Spirit stinks to God.

2 believers can perform the same works, deeds and have the same lifestyle, yet one does it from their own will (human nature, like all unbelievers do) and the other does it from the power of the Holy Spirit when being filled with the Spirit.

Like 1 Cor 3:15 says, the works done from human good (filthy rags) will be burned up, while the believer will be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 6-
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

If you don't see a choice being made in the bolded words above, you just aren't looking. When you are told to "stop", you have the choice to either do it or not do it.

16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

You are not describing freedom you are describing bondage.

Certainly not. Paul even gives the options of these choices. If there were no choices, Paul would not have included being a slave to obedience. It seems you are not willing to accept the fact that God has given freedom to man.

Christ doesn't command us "stop sinning" He takes our sins away. He imparts to us His life.

Really? Have you never read:
John 5:14 - Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” NIV
1 Cor 15:34 - Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God —I say this to your shame.

Scripture says differently.

The slave may thinks as he likes but because he is a slave he must do the will of his owner.

This is true, but accepting the promise of salvation is a THOUGHT, not an action commanded.

Trusting cannot be ordered by the slave owner. So unbelievers CAN trust God and His promise.

This isn't about willing something. It is about believing something.

Do you have to "will yourselrf" to believe something? Of course not. That doesn't even sound right.

He has a will but it is in bondage.

Sure. He can rebel against the slave owner, just like Onesimus did.

The will isn't involved in getting saved. The mind is involved. When the gospel is presented, a choice is created. To believe God's promise or not to.

Real simple.

The Calvinst claim that man must be regenerated in order to believe is not found in Scripture. The opposite is, actually.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

As difficult as some of these back and forth comments have been, they have been helpful. All concepts and ideas have been helpful, thus I appreciate it very much. And ironically, this lends credulity to what I'll be offering to us today.

Going back to Genesis, let's look at Joseph and how his brothers initially thought of killing him, though ultimately sold him into slavery for 20 bits of silver. Did the brothers of Joseph REALLY make this decision upon their own, or, did the Lord implant this idea into them (less Reuben, who secrety planned on saving him). Again, the issue is: Who is in control over the decision to sell Joseph into slavery?

Genesis 50:18-20 NLT - "Then his brothers came and threw themselves down before Joseph. "Look, we are your slaves!" they said. But Joseph replied, "Don't be afraid of me. Am I God, that I can punish you? You intended to harm me, but God intended it all for good. He brought me to this position so I could save the lives of many people."

Do you see it? The brothers of Joseph THOUGHT that they are the ones making decisions regarding the treatment of Joseph, but at the True depths of the matter, these actions were brought on by the Plan of God. Now, there are THREE plans at work, here.

1: The majority plan of Josephs brothers
2: The plan of Reuben
3: The Plan of God

Whose plan was more Powerful? Whose plan came to fruition? And what is that Plan? The Plan of God became reality, which was the He would cause Josephs majority of brothers to sell Joseph into slavery SO THAT (there's that phrase again) Joseph would be placed into a remarkable situation where he could save the Lord's Chosen Jews.

Is this a matter of free will? Is this a matter of control?

Friends, this is but another one of the many, many stories that I am offering that show the incredible, Almighty Power of God. All throughout the Bible we find these stories of God controlling the thoughts and minds of people SO THAT He can show His Almighty, Omnicient Power over all of creation. It is the Lord who sets up these situations, and He does so by orchestrating the lives and minds of us meager humans. This is 100% undeniable.

Daniel 2:21 NLT - "He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars."

We are not in control over anything, not even our own wisdom and knowledge. Well, unless we're going to call God a liar.