Constantine probably wasn't even a Christian

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#21
Difficult stance given that the church flourished and multiplied under Roman persecution. What church would we have today if the saints who were systematically killed by the Roman church remained alive in their time?
It is important that we know and understand how the church changed dramatically when Constantine took over leadership. It was a small group of power before, called the age of the apostles. This was because the leaders of the church were at first directly trained by Christ, and then these men trained the leaders to come. They were the ones with authority.

Constantine was a brilliant politician, dedicated to the development of the Roman empire. He used his political know how to build the church. Many heretics had developed in the church of the apostles. The core group was so strong that it changed lives, but Constantine felt that the heretics must be handled so there was a council to decide what was acceptable. A huge council was called to decide these questions.

The true church must take its orders from God, not men. The church was made acceptable for the pagans and the way was opened for it to grow, but it was weakened.

We need to go back to the age of the apostles and take out the elements that weakened the church.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,901
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#22
It is important that we know and understand how the church changed dramatically when Constantine took over leadership. It was a small group of power before, called the age of the apostles. This was because the leaders of the church were at first directly trained by Christ, and then these men trained the leaders to come. They were the ones with authority.

Constantine was a brilliant politician, dedicated to the development of the Roman empire. He used his political know how to build the church. Many heretics had developed in the church of the apostles. The core group was so strong that it changed lives, but Constantine felt that the heretics must be handled so there was a council to decide what was acceptable. A huge council was called to decide these questions.

The true church must take its orders from God, not men. The church was made acceptable for the pagans and the way was opened for it to grow, but it was weakened.

We need to go back to the age of the apostles and take out the elements that weakened the church.
He built a demonic hegemony by co-opting pagan religions and wrapping them in Christian attire. The church, then, received power from the consent of the State not the Holy Spirit.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#23
Constantine's Conversion to Christianity was a Great Triumph for Christendom and a Great Relief to thousands of Suffering Christians.

The Bible says someone who believes that Jesus is Lord i.e. God will be saved, and thus is a Christian. Ergo, Constantine was Christian.

Constantine certainly believed in the Divinity of Christ. Disagree with him all you like, but you cannot deny this basic fact about him.

From New Advent: "
In deciding for Christianity he was no doubt also influenced by reasons of conscience--reasons resulting from the impression made on every unprejudiced person both by the Christians and by the moral force of Christianity, and from the practical knowledge which the emperors had of the Christian military officers and state officials. These reasons are, however, not mentioned in history, which gives the chief prominence to a miraculous event. Before Constantine advanced against his rival Maxentius, according to ancient custom he summoned the haruspices, who prophesied disaster; so reports a pagan panegyrist. But when the gods would not aid him, continues this writer, one particular god urged him on, for Constantine had close relations with the divinity itself. Under what form this connection with the deity manifested itself is told by Lactantius (How the Persecutors Died 44) and Eusebius (Life of Constantine I.26-31). He saw, according to the one in a dream, according to the other in a vision, a heavenly manifestation, a brilliant light in which he believed he descried the cross or the monogram of Christ. Strengthened by this apparition, he advanced courageously to battle, defeated his rival and won the supreme power. It was the result that gave to this vision its full importance, for when the emperor afterwards reflected on the event it was clear to him that the cross bore the inscription: HOC VINCES (in this sign wilt thou conquer). A monogram combining the first letters, X and P, of the name of Christ (CHRISTOS), a form that cannot be proved to have been used by Christians before, was made one of the tokens of the standard and placed upon the Labarum. In addition, this ensign was placed in the hand of a statue of the emperor at Rome, the pedestal of which bore the inscription: "By the aid of this salutary token of strength I have freed my city from the yoke of tyranny and restored to the Roman Senate and People the ancient splendour and glory." Directly after his victory Constantine granted tolerance to the Christians and next year (313) took a further step in their favour. In 313 Licinius and he issued at Milan the famous joint edict of tolerance.

This declared that the two emperors had deliberated as to what would be advantageous for the security and welfare of the empire and had, above all, taken into consideration the service which man owed to the "deity". Therefore they had decided to grant Christians and all others freedom in the exercise of religion ... Before this, it is true, it had occurred to Melito of Sardes (Eusebius, Church History IV.33) that the emperor might some day become a Christian, but Tertullian had thought otherwise, and had written (Apology 21) the memorable sentence: "Sed et Caesares credidissent super Christo, si aut Caesares non essent saeculo necessarii, aut si et Christiani potuissent esse Caesares" (But the Caesars also would have believed in Christ, if either the Caesars had not been necessary to the world or if Christians too could have been Caesars). The same opinion was held by St. Justin (I, xii, II, xv). That the empire should become Christian seemed to Justin and many others an impossibility, and they were just as little in the wrong as the optimists were in the right. At all events, a happy day now dawned for the Christians. They must have felt as did the persecuted in the time of the French Revolution when Robespierre finally fell and the Reign of Terror was over.

The feeling of emancipation from danger is touchingly expressed in the treatise ascribed to Lactantius (How the Persecutors Died), concerning the ways in which death overtook the persecutors. It says: "We should now give thanks to the Lord, Who has gathered together the flock that was devastated by ravening wolves, Who has exterminated the wild beasts which drove it from the pasture. Where is now the swarming multitude of our enemies, where the hangmen of Diocletian and Maximian? God has swept them from the earth; let us therefore celebrate His triumph with joy; let us observe the victory of the Lord with songs of praise, and honour Him with prayer day and night, so that the peace which we have received again after ten years of misery may be preserved to us." The imprisoned Christians were released from the prisons and mines, and were received by their brethren in the Faith with acclamations of joy; the churches were again filled, and those who had fallen away sought forgiveness."
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#24
In the earliest account of his victory by Eusebius, there's no mention of a vision of the cross or anything Christian.
Actually Eusebius wrote extensively about Constantine's visions. And then he wrote this in his Life of Constantine:

Chapter 32. How Constantine received Instruction, and read the Sacred Scriptures.
These things were done shortly afterwards. But at the time above specified, being struck with amazement at the extraordinary vision, and resolving to worship no other God save Him who had appeared to him, he sent for those who were acquainted with the mysteries of His doctrines, and enquired who that God was, and what was intended by the sign of the vision he had seen. They affirmed that He was God, the only begotten Son of the one and only God: that the sign which had appeared was the symbol of immortality, and the trophy of that victory over death which He had gained in time past when sojourning on earth. They taught him also the causes of His advent, and explained to him the true account of His incarnation. Thus he was instructed in these matters, and was impressed with wonder at the divine manifestation which had been presented to his sight. Comparing, therefore, the heavenly vision with the interpretation given, he found his judgment confirmed; and, in the persuasion that the knowledge of these things had been imparted to him by Divine teaching, he determined thenceforth to devote himself to the reading of the Inspired writings. Moreover, he made the priests of God his counselors, and deemed it incumbent on him to honor the God who had appeared to him with all devotion. And after this, being fortified by well-grounded hopes in Him, he hastened to quench the threatening fire of tyranny."
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#25
However the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia does state that Constantine was half Christian and half pagan: "In the dedication of Constantinople in 330 a ceremonial half pagan, half Christian was used. The chariot of the sun-god was set in the market-place, and over its head was placed the Cross of Christ, while the Kyrie Eleison was sung. Shortly before his death Constantine confirmed the privileges of the priests of the ancient gods. Many other actions of his have also the appearance of half-measures, as if he himself had wavered and had always held in reality to some form of syncretistic religion."
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#26
Actually Eusebius wrote extensively about Constantine's visions. And then he wrote this in his Life of Constantine:
Eusebius' first account of the battle at the Milvian bridge was in Ecclesiastical History. It contains a history of the "church" up to 324. In Ecclesiastical History he doesn't say anything about a vision.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#27
Constantine's Conversion to Christianity was a Great Triumph for Christendom and a Great Relief to thousands of Suffering Christians.
Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand you can't have Christianity mingled with paganism. Until you figure this out it's pointless trying to reason with you.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#28
Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand you can't have Christianity mingled with paganism. Until you figure this out it's pointless trying to reason with you.
Please don't do the "arguing". We are looking together for facts. No one says it is right to mix paganism and Christianity, they stated what Constantine believed.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#29
Please don't do the "arguing". We are looking together for facts. No one says it is right to mix paganism and Christianity, they stated what Constantine believed.
Yes, it's clear from what Nehemiah quoted that Constantine believed Christ to be True God, and God Almighty to be the One and Only God. Constantine also loved reading the Bible with devotion. Some historians do seem to be of the opinion that he tried to mix Christianity and paganism for a while, but this was probably a concession to his pagan citizens imho.

Anyway, if we read 3rd Century Church Fathers, and 4th Century Church Fathers, in comparison, it will be clear there is hardly any substantial difference in what they believed. Constantine himself didn't decide anything. One of his most famous decisions was asking the Bishops themselves to convene in the Council of Nicea - 320 Bishops from all over the world, many of whom still bore visible scars of persecution - in the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. Constantine took part in the Council, but it was the Bishops who drafted the Nicene Creed.

318 Bishops acknowledged and professed the Divinity of Christ. 2 Bishops did not and were excommunicated by the rest.

Constantine did not change Christianity, but Christianity changed Constantine imo. He may not have been perfect, but he loved Christ.

God Bless.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#30
Constantine never fully renounced paganism. Catholicism mixes Christianity with paganism. It absorbed the gods of paganism and made them "saints." The sun god became "Jesus." The pagan holidays became "church" holidays. You can't have it both ways; to think you can is truly self-delusional.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#31
Constantine is accused by some of being too harsh on paganism. Yet, he is accused by others of being too mild on it? I'm suspending judgment till I research it more, but something doesn't wash with me about that. I think I disagree with some claims of that CE article.

Eusebius (265-339 A.D) was a contemporary of Constantine (reigned 306-337 A.D.) and is the best historical source on his life. God Bless.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#32
Eusebius (265-339 A.D) was a contemporary of Constantine (reigned 306-337 A.D.) and is the best historical source on his life.
If he's such a reliable historian why didn't he report the "vision" in his first account of the Milvian bridge in Ecclesiastical History?
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#33
Yeah, right. Constantine was a devout and religious Christian Emperor. Even a casual reread of Eusebius Oration makes that crystal clear.

Here is an excerpt from Chapter 9:

"And then, with thanksgiving and praise, the tokens of a grateful spirit, to the Author of his victory, he proclaimed this triumphant Sign, by monuments as well as words, to all mankind, erecting it as a mighty trophy against every enemy in the midst of the imperial city, and expressly enjoining on all to acknowledge this imperishable symbol of salvation as the safeguard of the power of Rome and of the empire of the world.

9. Such were the instructions which he gave to his subjects generally; but especially to his soldiers, whom he admonished to repose their confidence, not in their weapons, or armor, or bodily strength, but to acknowledge the Supreme God as the giver of every good, and of victory itself.

10. Thus did the emperor himself, strange and incredible as the fact may seem, become the instructor of his army in their religious exercises, and teach them to offer pious prayers in accordance with the divine ordinances, uplifting their hands towards heaven, and raising their mental vision higher still to the King of heaven, on whom they should call as the Author of victory, their preserver, guardian, and helper. He commanded too, that one day should be regarded as a special occasion for religious worship; I mean that which is truly the first and chief of all, the day of our Lord and Saviour; that day the name of which is connected with light, and life, and immortality, and every good.

11. Prescribing the same pious conduct to himself, he honored his Saviour in the chambers of his palace, performing his devotions according to the Divine commands, and storing his mind with instruction through the hearing of the sacred word. The entire care of his household was entrusted to ministers devoted to the service of God, and distinguished by gravity of life and every other virtue; while his trusty body-guards, strong in affection and fidelity to his person, found in their emperor an instructor in the practice of a godly life.

12. Again, the honor with which he regards the victorious Sign is founded on his actual experience of its divine efficacy. Before this the hosts of his enemies have disappeared: by this the powers of the unseen spirits have been turned to flight: through this the proud boastings of God's adversaries have come to nought, and the tongues of the profane and blasphemous been put to silence. By this Sign the Barbarian tribes were vanquished: through this the rites of superstitious fraud received a just rebuke: by this our emperor, discharging as it were a sacred debt, has performed the crowning good of all, by erecting triumphant memorials of its value in all parts of the world, raising temples and churches on a scale of royal costliness, and commanding all to unite in constructing the sacred houses of prayer."
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#35
People who don't have a True Relationship with Christ Jesus don't do the kind of things Emperor Constantine did for the Glory of Christ. Because of him, thousands of citizens of the Roman Empire worshipped Jesus Christ as God, and the Cross of Christ was Triumphant.

"
15. Above all, he has selected two places in the eastern division of the empire, the one in Palestine (since from thence the life-giving stream has flowed as from a fountain for the blessing of all nations), the other in that metropolis of the East which derives its name from that of Antiochus; in which, as the head of that portion of the empire, he has consecrated to the service of God a church of unparalleled size and beauty. The entire building is encompassed by an enclosure of great extent, within which the church itself rises to a vast elevation, of an octagonal form, surrounded by many chambers and courts on every side, and decorated with ornaments of the richest kind.

16. Such was his work here. Again, in the province of Palestine, in that city which was once the seat of Hebrew sovereignty, on the very site of the Lord's sepulchre, he has raised a church of noble dimensions, and adorned a temple sacred to the salutary Cross with rich and lavish magnificence, honoring that everlasting monument, and the trophies of the Saviour's victory over the power of death, with a splendor which no language can describe.

17. In the same country he discovered three places venerable as the localities of three sacred caves: and these also he adorned with costly structures, paying a fitting tribute of reverence to the scene of the first manifestation of the Saviour's presence; while at the second cavern he hallowed the remembrance of his final ascension from the mountain top; and celebrated his mighty conflict, and the victory which crowned it, at the third. All these places our emperor thus adorned in the hope of proclaiming the symbol of redemption to all mankind;

18. that Cross which has indeed repaid his pious zeal; through which his house and throne alike have prospered, his reign has been confirmed for a lengthened series of years, and the rewards of virtue bestowed on his noble sons, his kindred, and their descendants.

19. And surely it is a mighty evidence of the power of that God whom he serves, that he has held the balances of justice with an equal hand, and has apportioned to each party their due reward. With regard to the destroyers of the houses of prayer, the penalty of their impious conduct followed hard upon them: immediately were they swept away, and left neither race, nor house, nor family behind. On the other hand, he whose pious devotion to his Lord is conspicuous in his every act, who raises royal temples to his honor, and proclaims his name to his subjects by sacred offerings throughout the world, he, I say, has deservedly experienced him to be the preserver and defender of his imperial house and race. Thus clearly have the dealings of God been manifested, and this through the sacred efficacy of the salutary Sign.


Chapter 10
1. Much might indeed be said of this salutary Sign, by those who are skilled in the mysteries of our Divine religion. For it is in very truth the symbol of salvation, wondrous to speak of, more wondrous still to conceive; the appearance of which on earth has thrown the fictions of all false religion from the beginning into the deepest shade, has buried superstitious error in darkness and oblivion, and has revealed to all that spiritual light which enlightens the souls of men, even the knowledge of the only true God.

2. Hence the universal change for the better, which leads men to spurn their lifeless idols, to trample under foot the lawless rites of their demon deities, and laugh to scorn the time-honored follies of their fathers. Hence, too, the establishment in every place of those schools of sacred learning, wherein men are taught the precepts of saving truth, and dread no more those objects of creation which are seen by the natural eye, nor direct a gaze of wonder at the sun, the moon, or stars; but acknowledge him who is above all these, that invisible Being who is the Creator of them all, and learn to worship him alone.

3. Such are the blessings resulting to mankind from this great and wondrous Sign, by virtue of which the evils which once existed are now no more, and virtues heretofore unknown shine everywhere resplendent with the light of true godliness.

4. Discourses, and precepts, and exhortations to a virtuous and holy life, are proclaimed in the ears of all nations. Nay, the emperor himself proclaims them: and it is indeed a marvel that this mighty prince, raising his voice in the hearing of all the world, like an interpreter of the Almighty Sovereign's will, invites his subjects in every country to the knowledge of the true God.

5. No more, as in former times, is the babbling of impious men heard in the imperial palace; but priests and pious worshipers of God together celebrate his majesty with royal hymns of praise. The name of the one Supreme Ruler of the universe is proclaimed to all: the gospel of glad tidings connects the human race with its Almighty King, declaring the grace and love of the heavenly Father to his children on the earth.

6. His praise is everywhere sung in triumphant strains: the voice of mortal man is blended with the harmony of the angelic choirs in heaven; and the reasoning soul employs the body which invests it as an instrument for sounding forth a fitting tribute of praise and adoration to his name. The nations of the East and the West are instructed at the same moment in his precepts: the people of the Northern and Southern regions unite with one accord, under the influence of the same principles and laws, in the pursuit of a godly life, in praising the one Supreme God, in acknowledging his only begotten Son their Saviour as the source of every blessing, and our emperor as the one ruler on the earth, together with his pious sons.


7. He himself, as a skillful pilot, sits on high at the helm of state, and directs the vessel with unerring course, conducting his people as it were with favoring breeze to a secure and tranquil haven. Meanwhile God himself, the great Sovereign, extends the right hand of his power from above for his protection, giving him victory over every foe, and establishing his empire by a lengthened period of years: and he will bestow on him yet higher blessings, and confirm in every deed the truth of his own promises. But on these we may not at present dwell; but must await the change to a better world: for it is not given to mortal eyes or ears of flesh, fully to apprehend the things of God."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#37
Constantine is a government leader, all he tough is to make himself strong leader and I agree with the video he have political reason to get support from pagan and Christian to combine 2 believe system for the his own benefit not for Christianity. So I believe he wasn't christian
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#38
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."—Exodus 20:4-5

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#39
However the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia does state that Constantine was half Christian and half pagan: "In the dedication of Constantinople in 330 a ceremonial half pagan, half Christian was used. The chariot of the sun-god was set in the market-place, and over its head was placed the Cross of Christ, while the Kyrie Eleison was sung. Shortly before his death Constantine confirmed the privileges of the priests of the ancient gods. Many other actions of his have also the appearance of half-measures, as if he himself had wavered and had always held in reality to some form of syncretistic religion."
And Jesus say

Matthew 6:24

King James Version



24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Read full chapter
Matthew 6:24 in all English translations
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#40
Everything he did was for himself and his own political ends.
Listen, nobody empties the Royal Treasuries to build Glorious Churches to Jesus Christ for his own sake. No, Constantine did it for the love of Jesus Christ, and he will enjoy his eternal reward with the Lord in Heaven, no matter what this man or that man may say about it.

He did not store his Treasures on Earth. He emptied them for the Love of Christ, as Christ taught to do, and thus stored them in Heaven.

In Christ,
Xavier.