Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Still trying to catch up to the timeline, chronological list . . . so we remain in Deuteronomy.

Below, this passage mostly focuses on the "Hornet" that God sends. What is the Hornet? There is scholarly debate on the matter. Here is one possibility:

Blue Letter Bible Dictionary for "Hornet" - "The word is used in these passages as referring to some means by which the Canaanites were to be driven out from before the Israelites. Some have supposed that the word is used in a metaphorical sense as the symbol of some panic which would seize the people as a "terror of God" (Gen 35:5), the consternation with which God would inspire the Canaanites."

I have personally experienced the Terror of the Lord, and friends, and second, to experience the Raw, Almighty Power of God, it is the second most incredible "feeling" I've ever experienced. Spiritual Terror is all-consuming to the point that if God had not relieved my mind of this Terror, I would have died. There are simply no human words that can fully express what this Terror is like; I can only offer a limited expression of it. And so, this Terror is more than simply a panic; but it is controlling. "You" do not have the available option of talking yourself out of this form of panic attack . . . it is Spiritual, not of a human, physical level. I've had two human-level panic attacks, and they are kindergarten compared to Spiritual panic. So, I realize that this Terror of the Lord is difficult for "you" to understand, but "you're" going to have to trust me.

Deuteronomy 7:17-21 NIV - "You may say to yourselves, "These nations are stronger than we are. How can we drive them out?" But do not be afraid of them; remember well what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt. You saw with your own eyes the great trials, the signs and wonders, the mighty hand and outstretched arm, with which the LORD your God brought you out. The LORD your God will do the same to all the peoples you now fear. Moreover, the LORD your God will send the hornet among them until even the survivors who hide from you have perished. Do not be terrified by them, for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a great and awesome God."

Terror of the Lord is a form of mind control. Anyone who has experienced will understand what I'm talking about. Those of you who have not, these passages simply are not going to make proper sense to you . . . unless you are able to trust another such as me. Paul referred to this Terror:

2 Corinthians 5:11 KJV - "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

I promise each of you that when a person experiences and is under the influence of the Terror of the Lord, their options of choice are nearly gone. There is little capacity to think and perceive, as the Terror is so insurmountable and physically controlling. As I have referenced this Terror, I have equated it to "having one foot in hell," meaning that I was sharing "space" with evil spirits. And while I can say that I don't wish that anyone would experience such Terror, on the other hand, I wish that all would . . . for it will change "your" perspective not only in this life but in how a person reads the entire Bible.

And so, it is this Hornet that strips a person of choice and personal control, options to choose . . . free will.

Is this fair? Is it right that God would allow "people" to experience this Terror? To strip them of their ability to think straight and determine their own path? For when this Terror strikes a person, they are inclined to make a new choice and they are inclined to "choose" a new path, for they feel that there is no other option, lest they experience hell. Essentially, the freedom to choose has been stripped, for when a person experiences True hell, options have been removed. Having experienced the Terror of the Lord . . . no one would ever say to themselves, "Yes! That's what I'm looking for! I desire and crave to live in Spiritual Terror for all of eternity!" Impossible. It is 100% impossible for anyone to desire eternal Spiritual Terror. Again, the option of choosing between Heaven and hell has been stripped (at that point.)

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

You are twisting what I said and you are attributing to me an attitude that I do not have.

You can hardly expect me to or anyone to lavish praise on your assertions when I have already stated I do not agree with you.

Now if you cannot abide any sort of criticism, then plainly say so. That is not my determination; rather it is yours. I have more than once stated both sides of the equation regarding Pharaoh's heart. I have stated both sides so why do you state otherwise?

Here is the proof:

Yes, God did harden Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh already had that kind of heart. God did not decide to give him a hard heart; He worked with what was already there. Post 270

Well again I read all of your post and I appreciate what you say. I disagree with your conclusion regarding the hardening of the heart. I did expressly illustrate the fact that the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It would seem that God remarked on that and continued the process (not trying to be smart). Post 240

And what is that something else? I have shown you now that you are wrong stating I left out the fact that God hardened the heart of the ruler of Egypt.

You presented a different translation that used the word stubborn to describe that heart but that word bears the same connotations.

YOU want to discuss the belief you have that none of us are capable of choosing. If you wish no opposing views, then there is the option of the blog available to you. Be consistent in your own expression of wanting to discuss the presentations of others especially when they fully cited scripture.

If you choose to ignore me as you have done to others, you simply display an intolerance for anyone's understanding but your own.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Polar said:

You are twisting what I said and you are attributing to me an attitude that I do not have.

You can hardly expect me to or anyone to lavish praise on your assertions when I have already stated I do not agree with you.

Now if you cannot abide any sort of criticism, then plainly say so. That is not my determination; rather it is yours. I have more than once stated both sides of the equation regarding Pharaoh's heart. I have stated both sides so why do you state otherwise?

Here is the proof:

Yes, God did harden Pharaoh's heart but Pharaoh already had that kind of heart. God did not decide to give him a hard heart; He worked with what was already there. Post 270

Well again I read all of your post and I appreciate what you say. I disagree with your conclusion regarding the hardening of the heart. I did expressly illustrate the fact that the Bible tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It would seem that God remarked on that and continued the process (not trying to be smart). Post 240

And what is that something else? I have shown you now that you are wrong stating I left out the fact that God hardened the heart of the ruler of Egypt.

You presented a different translation that used the word stubborn to describe that heart but that word bears the same connotations.

YOU want to discuss the belief you have that none of us are capable of choosing. If you wish no opposing views, then there is the option of the blog available to you. Be consistent in your own expression of wanting to discuss the presentations of others especially when they fully cited scripture.

If you choose to ignore me as you have done to others, you simply display an intolerance for anyone's understanding but your own.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go down this path of arguing about these kinds of things. That's not why I'm here.

I do sincerely wish you the best.

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

I am familiar with this type of dismissal from you. This is not my first profile here and this is what you do. You choose what you will respond to. I am disappointed but not surprised.

Arguing? I proved what you stated to be wrong. Instead of acknowledging that, you falsely claim I am arguing.

Your choice. Your words.

It appears you may think you are here to teach, but this is a discussion forum.

From your signature line:

That is questionable.

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Sorry, but it seems you are somehow equating your subjective experience with biblical truth. Stating we should believe you, is what then? I find no expression of what you say you experienced related anywhere in scripture with the results that you think it better to die than to live.

Paul does state it is better to be with the Lord and who would disagree with that? However a distaste for God given life is unsettling IMO.

Your experience may not even have been from God. Why on earth would God send 'spiritual panic' to a believer? Having counselled people who have had the fear of God deserting them and who were reassured with biblical counselling and were then able to reason that what they suffered could not have been from God, I cannot determine what you state is from God and there is no apparent reason that anyone else should either.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Polar said:

I am familiar with this type of dismissal from you. This is not my first profile here and this is what you do. You choose what you will respond to. I am disappointed but not surprised.

Arguing? I proved what you stated to be wrong. Instead of acknowledging that, you falsely claim I am arguing.

Your choice. Your words.

It appears you may think you are here to teach, but this is a discussion forum.

From your signature line:

That is questionable.

I'm sorry.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Polar said:

Sorry, but it seems you are somehow equating your subjective experience with biblical truth. Stating we should believe you, is what then? I find no expression of what you say you experienced related anywhere in scripture with the results that you think it better to die than to live.

Paul does state it is better to be with the Lord and who would disagree with that? However a distaste for God given life is unsettling IMO.

Your experience may not even have been from God. Why on earth would God send 'spiritual panic' to a believer? Having counselled people who have had the fear of God deserting them and who were reassured with biblical counselling and were then able to reason that what they suffered could not have been from God, I cannot determine what you state is from God and there is no apparent reason that anyone else should either.

I"m sorry.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

Polar said:

Spot on! Pharoah's heart was hardened by himself for the first 5 plagues:

First plague: water into blood
Ex 7-
22 But the Egyptian magicians did the same things by their secret arts, and Pharaoh’s heart became hard; he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
23 Instead, he turned and went into his palace, and did not take even this to heart.

Second plague: frogs
Ex 8:15 - But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Third plague: gnats
Ex 8:19 - the magicians said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.

Fourth plague: flies
Ex 8:32 - But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go. The bolded proves that in all these plagues, Pharoah was hardening his own heart.

Fifth plague: death of livestock
9:7- Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelites had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.

So the pattern was set: Pharoah hardened his own heart for 5 plagues. So when the Bible says that "God hardened Pharoah's heart" it is explained in Ex 9-
15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

So then, "God hardening Pharoah's heart" means that Pharoah became even harder by God allowing him to live longer.

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

God prevailed, of course, and Pharaoh finally allowed God's people to leave, but the other thing, is that he relented yet again and chased after the Israelites with his army and they were drowned in the Red Sea, while the Israelites celebrated at their freedom.

Thing is though, they still had the 'slave' mentality they had been born with and suffered under. Kind of like a physical comparison to the spiritual dilemma many Christians suffer, not understanding that It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

For another thread though I think.

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The only problem with this theory of yours is the following . . . which was [before] the plagues began:

Genesis 41:38 NKJV - "And Pharaoh said to his servants, "Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom is the Spirit of God?"

That doesn't sound like a hardened heart, but a heart that was looking for a Spirit-led person.

Next, God hardened Pharaoh's heart [before] the plagues began.

From the KJV and not the disgusting NLT:

Exodus 4:21 KJV - "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

Chapter 5 is where Moses and Aaron confront Pharaoh.

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

In Moses’ and Pharaoh’s first encounter, Pharaoh’s heart “became hard.” Get your Bible-nerd hat on because there’s a translation issue here that unfortunately complicates things. The Hebrew verb for “became hard” (pronounced, khazaq) is not passive, nor does it indicate who is initiating the action (it’s called a “stative” verb, meaning it doesn’t say whether it’s Pharaoh or God). If you’re reading in the NIV, it’s ambiguous, which seems to be the point. However, some other modern translations have regrettably inserted their interpretation into the text and rendered this verb “was hardened.” In other words, they turn it into a passive verb. You walk away from chapter 7 thinking God was hardening Pharaoh’s heart from the first, which isn’t what the text says. As you read on, you’ll notice a fascinating pattern emerge. In the first five plagues that God sends on Egypt, the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart happens by his own will, or is again ambiguous, just as we saw in the opening scene. In the last five plagues, the pattern changes.

Blood: Pharaoh’s heart “became hard” (7:22)
Frogs: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (8:15)
Gnats: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (8:19)
Flies: “Pharaoh hardened his own heart” (8:32)
Livestock die: Pharaoh’s heart “was hard” (9:7)
Boils: “The Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (9:12)
Hail: Pharaoh “hardened his own heart” (9:34)
Locusts: God announces that he has “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:1,10:20)
Darkness: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (10:27)
Death of the firstborn: God “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” (11:10)

Here we are able to draw several conclusions. First of all, in plagues 6-10, we hear four times that God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Can you see how this is a distinct change from plagues 1-5? In those stories, Pharaoh explicitly hardened his own heart (plagues 2 and 4), or the source of the hardening was ambiguous (plagues 1, 3, and 5). Interestingly, in the seventh plague of hail, we first see Pharaoh harden his own heart, but afterward the narrator uses the ambiguous verb “became hard” to describe it. This means that all of the other uses of the ambiguous verb (plagues 1, 3, and 5) do not imply that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but just the opposite!

source

Polar · Jun 8, 2022

Concluding analysis of the above cited article, same source:

Why does the author use this back-and-forth technique in describing Pharaoh’s heart? It’s all part of the brilliant diagnosis of the human condition in this story, which is about the mysterious nature of human evil. God called Pharaoh to humble himself and acknowledge that God is his authority and that he cannot redefine good and evil on Egyptian terms. Pharaoh’s response is to balk at the God of Israel. After this, God gives Pharaoh five opportunities to repent and humble himself. And five times Pharaoh hardens his heart. The author wants us to see that even the most heinous and absurd forms of human evil are not a true threat to God’s purposes. He can steer even this kind of evil toward his plan to bless all humanity through Abraham’s family.
Israel’s Labor Increased
1And afterward Moses and Aaron came and said to Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Let My people go that they may celebrate a feast to Me in the wilderness.’ ” 2But Pharaoh said, “Who is the Lord that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, and besides, I will not let Israel go.”

Magenta · Jun 8, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

That is God saying what He is going to do. God did not take action on that promise until after
Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times, as shown by @FreeGrace2 in post #288 above.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his own self-willed rebellion against the One True God, regardless
of how much he was supposedly seeking a spirit-filled person. What was spirit to him, after all, when
he himself was considered a god? The Egyptians had multiple gods and goddesses, each one of whom
was vanquished by bringing the plagues upon the Egyptians... the fulfillment of another of God's promises.

Magenta · Jun 8, 2022

2ndTimothyGroup said:

Oh, I thought you did know... not that I expect you to remember all of our exchanges

(1) Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Spot on! Pharoah's heart was hardened by himself for the first 5 plagues:

2ndTimothyGroup said:

So all those verses I quoted from Exodus are a theory in your estimation? Really? What DO you believe in the Bible?

lol. Did you bother looking at the context at all? THAT Pharoah was the one who dealt with Joseph and his wisdom, and in whom he gave him nearly ALL of Egypt to rule over.

By the time we get to Exodus and the plagues, the context is Moses and a DIFFERENT Pharoah.

So, now you can wipe all that embarrassment off your face. Did you really think the Pharoah who dealt with Joseph was the SAME Pharoah that dealt with Moses? By the time Moses went back to Egypt, he was 80 y/o.

Keep in mind that Joseph stayed in Egypt for the rest of his life and he lived 110 years. Gen 50:22.

Acts 7-
17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased.
18 Then ‘a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.’

So, the Pharoah of the exodus was NOT the Pharoah who dealt with Joseph, so quoting Gen 41:38 was foolish, and demonstrated how little you actually know.

So what? You have SEEN the verses regarding the first 5 plagues and it is clear that Pharoah hardened his own heart. Ex 4:21 is a prophecy regarding the 6th - 10th plagues, and the pattern had already been set.

The ONLY way God hardened Pharoah's heart was by allowing him to live longer so he himself could harden his own heart MORE.

Id youe eyes and ears are open to truth, you will realize all this.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 8, 2022

Magenta said:

That is God saying what He is going to do. God did not take action on that promise until after
Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times, as shown by @FreeGrace2 in post #288 above.
Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his own self-willed rebellion against the One True God, regardless
of how much he was supposedly seeking a spirit-filled person. What was spirit to him, after all, when
he himself was considered a god? The Egyptians had multiple gods and goddesses, each one of whom
was vanquished by bringing the plagues upon the Egyptians... the fulfillment of another of God's promises.

Very well said, m'lady! It is refreshing to find other believers who realize what is meant by "God hardened Pharaoh's heart".

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Magenta said:

I hear what you are saying. My question is:

Why would God harden the heart of someone who has already hardened their own heart? That doesn't make any sense (to me).

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

Magenta said:

I am quick to admit that I recall very few of the exchanges, here. Unless something really strikes my heart, I won't likely recall. I also admit that I quickly let go of things that don't make sense (to me), but this is not to say that what you have written about this subject does not make sense. In fact, the Spirit within you brings peace, even though we may not always agree.

Magenta, I deeply value the manner in which we dialog with one another. Even though we may not always see things the same way, you present yourself (to me) in an unaggressive manner, and that is what I always seek in others. To those who do not possess this skill, which I believe is evidence of a Right Spirit, I admit that I am quick to "dismiss" as one above correctly stated. When I see that a mind is closed, I don't waste my time (or theirs).

2ndTimothyGroup · Jun 8, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said:
Spot on! Pharoah's heart was hardened by himself for the first 5 plagues:

So all those verses I quoted from Exodus are a theory in your estimation? Really? What DO you believe in the Bible?

lol. Did you bother looking at the context at all? THAT Pharoah was the one who dealt with Joseph and his wisdom, and in whom he gave him nearly ALL of Egypt to rule over.

By the time we get to Exodus and the plagues, the context is Moses and a DIFFERENT Pharoah.

So, now you can wipe all that embarrassment off your face. Did you really think the Pharoah who dealt with Joseph was the SAME Pharoah that dealt with Moses? By the time Moses went back to Egypt, he was 80 y/o.

Keep in mind that Joseph stayed in Egypt for the rest of his life and he lived 110 years. Gen 50:22.

Acts 7-
17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased.
18 Then ‘a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.’

So, the Pharoah of the exodus was NOT the Pharoah who dealt with Joseph, so quoting Gen 41:38 was foolish, and demonstrated how little you actually know.

So what? You have SEEN the verses regarding the first 5 plagues and it is clear that Pharoah hardened his own heart. Ex 4:21 is a prophecy regarding the 6th - 10th plagues, and the pattern had already been set.

The ONLY way God hardened Pharoah's heart was by allowing him to live longer so he himself could harden his own heart MORE.

Id youe eyes and ears are open to truth, you will realize all this.

The aggressive tone . . . I walk away from. I don't have the heart for it.

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