What Constitutes Scriptures?

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Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#41
This isn’t meant to be argumentative or anything, just sharing my perspective here.

Those New Testament passages are based on Old Testament scriptures.

Leviticus 19:13
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:15
15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.
Again, what Paul quoted is an exact match to part of what Luke wrote in Luke 10:7 in the underlying Greek of the New Testament.

That’s true you’re possibly correct about that, but mountain-moving isn’t exactly a brand new idea unique to the New Testament. There’s some evidence in the Old Testament about mountain-moving.

Isaiah 40:4
4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isaiah 54:10
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

And there’s several more.
Although I'm NOT going to dogmatically say that Paul was referencing either Matthew's or Mark's gospels or both, I will say that the passages that you quoted have nothing to do with moving mountains by one's faith, so I definitely don't see a match there.

It’s my perspective that the New Testament books, letters, epistles, etc were not considered scripture at the time they were written. They weren’t tried and stood the test of time like the Law and Prophets had. It would have basically been like someone writing a random book today and telling you to believe the message in it to be saved. It would be hilarious or maybe even concerning.
I definitely disagree with you on this point for reasons which I've already stated both here and on another thread, but I'm not going to belabor or argue the point anymore than I already have.

The people who were preached to the message of Jesus, the gospel, if they weren’t eyewitnesses, required validation from the Old Testament scriptures or miracles to confirm what was being said is true.
BELIEVE ME, I'm all for validation from the Old Testament, and I've read the entire Old Testament many times myself.

I once heard someone make the following statement, and I totally agree with what he said.

He said:

"Trying to understand the New Testament without first having a working knowledge of the Old Testament is like trying to put the roof on a house without first building the house."

Or, as has been said elsewhere, when it comes to the two testaments, then the following is most certainly true:

"The new (testament) is in the old (testament) concealed, and the old (testament) is in the new (testament) revealed."
 

studentoftheword

Well-known member
Nov 12, 2021
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#42
the Hebrew word for Scripture ----

Strong's Concordance
graphé: a writing, scripture
Original Word: γραφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: graphé
Phonetic Spelling: (graf-ay')
Definition: a writing, scripture
Usage: (a) a writing, (b) a passage of scripture; plur: the scriptures.
HELPS Word-studies
1124
graphḗ properly, writing. 1124 (graphḗ) is used 51 times in the NT –always of holy Scripture, i.e. the inspired, inerrant writings of the Bible (the 66 books of Scripture, 39 in Hebrew, 27 in Greek).

[The NT generally uses 1124 (graphḗ) for the Hebrew Scriptures (the OT) – but see also 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Pet 3:16. 1124 (graphḗ) was used for the Hebrew Scriptures as early as Aristeas (about 130 bc; so MM).]
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
639
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#43
the Hebrew word for Scripture ----

Strong's Concordance
graphé: a writing, scripture
Original Word: γραφή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: graphé
Phonetic Spelling: (graf-ay')
Definition: a writing, scripture
Usage: (a) a writing, (b) a passage of scripture; plur: the scriptures.
HELPS Word-studies
1124
graphḗ properly, writing. 1124 (graphḗ) is used 51 times in the NT –always of holy Scripture, i.e. the inspired, inerrant writings of the Bible (the 66 books of Scripture, 39 in Hebrew, 27 in Greek).

[The NT generally uses 1124 (graphḗ) for the Hebrew Scriptures (the OT) – but see also 2 Tim 3:16 and 2 Pet 3:16. 1124 (graphḗ) was used for the Hebrew Scriptures as early as Aristeas (about 130 bc; so MM).]
Yes, and "graphé" is the word that Peter used in II Peter 3:16 while comparing Paul's epistles to "the OTHER scriptures", and it is the word that Paul used while citing Luke 10:7 and calling it "scripture" in I Timothy 5:18.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#44
Yes, and "graphé" is the word that Peter used in II Peter 3:16 while comparing Paul's epistles to "the OTHER scriptures", and it is the word that Paul used while citing Luke 10:7 and calling it "scripture" in I Timothy 5:18.
My point is Paul may have said what Luke 10:7 says, but the scripture he is referencing and Jesus referenced is Leviticus 19:13 and Deuteronomy 24:14,15.

2 Peter 3:16, in my humble opinion, is just saying that Paul is difficult to understand sometimes, but he doesn’t distort the scriptures like some people do. Paul’s writings are referred to as letters.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#46
My point is Paul may have said what Luke 10:7 says, but the scripture he is referencing and Jesus referenced is Leviticus 19:13 and Deuteronomy 24:14,15.
Look, I like you, I genuinely do, but you're definitely wrong on this one, so I'm hoping that you'll reevaluate your present stance after reading what I'm about to say.

Let's start with what Jesus said as is recorded in Luke chapter 10.

Luke chapter 10

[1] After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
[2] Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
[3] Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
[4] Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
[5] And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
[6] And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
[7] And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
[8] And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
[9] And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

The CONTEXT here is definitely that of Jesus sending 70 laborers out into the spiritual harvest field. As he sends them forth, he instructs them to "carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes", and instead to remain in that house, if they're received, while "eating and drinking such things as they give you; FOR THE LABORER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE".

Well. let's pause here and ask ourselves this very important question:

Who were these 70 working for?

Jesus or the people whose houses they might be entering?

The correct answer is Jesus, as he is the one who sent them forth as his laborers in his spiritual harvest field.

With such being the case, their "hire" was his responsibility, and he informed them that he would basically pay them through the people that they were ministering to. You know, sort of like what Paul said here to the Corinthians:

I Corinthians chapter 9

[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

God has ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel in the sense that those who are sowing spiritual things to others will oftentimes reap carnal or natural things back in return. In fact, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 25:4 here (vs. 9), just like he did in I Timothy 5:18 along with Luke 10:7.

THIS is the context.

Christians who are working for the Lord or the gospel's sake reaping natural provisions from those to whom they are sowing spiritual things.

Now, IN CONTEXT, what does any of this allegedly have to do with either Leviticus 19:13 or Deuteronomy 24:14-15?

"Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning." (Lev. 19:13)

"Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates: At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee." (Deut. 24:14-15)

Both of these references are in relation to people who have hired someone to do work for them, and how they're to pay them their wages before the sun goes down, and not to oppress them because they're relying on said wages.

We're talking apples and oranges here in that neither of these two verses have anything even remotely to do with what Jesus actually said in Luke 10:7 or with what Paul consequently quoted in I Timothy 5:18. In both of those instances, the CONTEXT is Christian servitude to Christ.

That's just reality, so I sincerely hope that you reconsider your presently-held belief in this matter.

2 Peter 3:16, in my humble opinion, is just saying that Paul is difficult to understand sometimes, but he doesn’t distort the scriptures like some people do. Paul’s writings are referred to as letters.
Again, here's the text, IN CONTEXT:

II Peter chapter 3

[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter CLEARLY likened the "wresting" of Paul's epistles to the "wresting" of "the OTHER scriptures", and NOT just to the "wresting" of "the scriptures". Again, why "the OTHER scriptures"? The answer is obvious. Paul's epistles were clearly deemed to be "scripture" by Peter.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#47
Then there's pseudopigrapha. This includes such things as The Book of Enoch, Gospel of Thomas and Etc....
The Book of Enoch was even quoted by Jesus in several places. But to this
day nobody considers it scripture. (Except for what Jesus said of course)

Then we have the book of Jude....which includes many Talmud references.

So...why were these books removed?
Books were not removed. They were added.

Also, Enoch being quoted does not make the book legitimate. Enoch would
have been quoted for centuries before the book of Enoch was even written.


That's how oral traditions work ;)
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#48
Books were not removed. They were added.

Also, Enoch being quoted does not make the book legitimate. Enoch would
have been quoted for centuries before the book of Enoch was even written.


That's how oral traditions work ;)
I read what purports to be the book of Enoch many years ago, and I found it to be of demonic origin.

Sure, whoever wrote it "quoted" the verse from Jude, but the rest was garbage.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#49
This isn’t meant to be argumentative or anything, just sharing my perspective here.

Those New Testament passages are based on Old Testament scriptures.

Leviticus 19:13
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Deuteronomy 24:15
15 At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the Lord, and it be sin unto thee.



Totally agreed and that’s an interesting commentary!



That’s true you’re possibly correct about that, but mountain-moving isn’t exactly a brand new idea unique to the New Testament. There’s some evidence in the Old Testament about mountain-moving.

Isaiah 40:4
4Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isaiah 54:10
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

And there’s several more.




Agreed for sure.

It’s my perspective that the New Testament books, letters, epistles, etc were not considered scripture at the time they were written. They weren’t tried and stood the test of time like the Law and Prophets had. It would have basically been like someone writing a random book today and telling you to believe the message in it to be saved. It would be hilarious or maybe even concerning.

The people who were preached to the message of Jesus, the gospel, if they weren’t eyewitnesses, required validation from the Old Testament scriptures or miracles to confirm what was being said is true.
One of the 100 tests done on a piece of writing was the 100 year tests. Meaning that a piece of prophecy that was given and written down had to wait 100 years before it could become considered scripture.

And this point was put to the test with Daniel. Now Daniel is a prophet in his own right and a leader of many. But one of the unique things that Daniel did was to consider the writings of Jeremiah to be actually accurate scripture. (Which caused a lot of prayer and fasting on Daniel's part) Especially as Daniel witnessed Ezra begin the migration of the Israelites back to Israel to once again building the Temple. Meanwhile Daniel himself is writing down his prophecies that came from God. One of the numbering prophecies accurately predicted the precise day and hour that sacrifices would resume in Temple worship. Which immediately made his writings instantly respected even though he was a Unich. (He had been castrated and could not gain access to the Temple because of the deformity)

Daniel, the prophet, is unique on several occasions and not just this aspect of his life. The list of oddities in his life are vast and many not limited to this early admission of writings as scripture but also the Nebacadnezzar addition, Aramaic usage, the physical deformity, the advisor position to the King, and many others.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#50
Books were not removed. They were added.

Also, Enoch being quoted does not make the book legitimate. Enoch would
have been quoted for centuries before the book of Enoch was even written.


That's how oral traditions work ;)
Just the bits Jesus quoted because Jesus is quoting them.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#51
God’s grace is sufficient
Only if you are worshipping the God who is and not one of your own creation that shares the same name tag.

Which brings up the point that the "cherry picking" thread discusses. Using Eisogesis and cherry picking verses I can promote and license all sorts of vile sins and abuses of other people claiming that "God's word says_________".
And it's a vile mischaracterization of what God intended. People have been doing so for thousands of years already...just because everyone has access to scriptures doesn't mean that they are handled correctly. Even Adolf Hitler used scriptures (along with Martin Luther) to license and encourage abuse and extermination of the Jewish population and subjugation of women.

Scriptures were used by American founding fathers to license slavery...this continued through to Abraham Lincoln and even beyond.
Baptists were notorious for using scriptures before, during, and after prohibition to promote complete abstinence of drinking alcoholic beverages.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
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#53
Only if you are worshipping the God who is and not one of your own creation that shares the same name tag.

Which brings up the point that the "cherry picking" thread discusses. Using Eisogesis and cherry picking verses I can promote and license all sorts of vile sins and abuses of other people claiming that "God's word says_________".
And it's a vile mischaracterization of what God intended. People have been doing so for thousands of years already...just because everyone has access to scriptures doesn't mean that they are handled correctly. Even Adolf Hitler used scriptures (along with Martin Luther) to license and encourage abuse and extermination of the Jewish population and subjugation of women.

Scriptures were used by American founding fathers to license slavery...this continued through to Abraham Lincoln and even beyond.
Baptists were notorious for using scriptures before, during, and after prohibition to promote complete abstinence of drinking alcoholic beverages.
I agree with you about cherry picking verses but I was focusing on your words regarding our immortal soul depending on correct theology. Placing your faith in Jesus Christ is correct theology. It’s that simple.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#54
Jesus quoting Enoch does not mean He is quoting the book of Enoch ;)
Hmm, it is my understanding that he did not quote Enoch.

Some claim that the book of Jude copied the book of Enoch But a careful comparison of the two books reveals that did not occur. Others claim that Jesus quoted the book of Enoch. But is that true? Did Jesus quote the book of Enoch in Matthew 22:29-30? What follows explains why we know that Jesus did not quote the book of Enoch.


The message of Matthew 22:29-30
We will start by providing some background to Matthew 22:29-30. Matthew 22:23-40 records a contest that occurred between the Sadducees and Jesus Christ. The Sadducees began with a fictional story about a woman who had been married to seven different men that were all brothers. The Sadducees presented Jesus with an unrealistic application of the levirate marriage (Genesis 38:8; Deuteronomy 25:5-10). Then they asked Jesus to which of the seven husbands would she be married in heaven.

Matthew 22:29-30 describes how Jesus answered their question.

But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” Matthew 22:29-30 (NASB)



Sadducees Did Not Understand the Scriptures
Notice that Jesus’ answer has three parts.

First, Jesus told the Sadducees that they did not understand the Scriptures.
Acts 23:8 tells us they did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. So, they created a story in which they did not even believe! Jesus was correct. They did not understand the Scriptures.

There are many passages in the Scriptures that teach the resurrection of the dead. The first passage is Genesis 22:5. In that verse, we are told that Abraham understood that even though God had asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, God would raise him from the dead. He was going to sacrifice his son; yet, he told his servant that he and Isaac would return. He did not know that an angel would stop him from sacrificing his son. See Hebrews 11:19. So, this passage reveals the Sadducees did not understand the Scriptures about the resurrection.

As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Job 19:25-26 (NASB)

Sadducees did not understand these Scriptures that clearly teach the resurrection (2 Samuel 12:23; Psalm 16:9-10; Hosea 13:14).

Secondly, the Sadducees failed to realize that people would not be married in the resurrection. They did not think about the implication of the resurrection. Did they understand that Psalm 1:5-6 teaches the wicked will perish? That is, what a person believes about God affects how they act in this life. Their belief and behavior demonstrate where they deserve to spend eternity. The passage says,

Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish.
Psalm 1:5-6 (NASB)

Notice the passage says the way of the wicked will perish. This means more than bad behavior will be punished. We must not miss the point that what one does in this life reveals where they will live forever. That is, the decisions you make now in this life determine your eternal destiny. That is also the teaching of the New Testament (John 3:16, 36).


Did Jesus Quote the Book of Enoch?

One author has quoted section 6-7 of the Book of Enoch as proof that Jesus quoted the book of Enoch. Here are the two sections.

6. But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

7. Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.[1]

The book of Enoch was discussing angels and then made this statement. Then the author claims that Jesus was quoting the book of Enoch. We will ignore the obvious fact that Jesus’ statement is not an exact quote.

The more important question for us is whether Jesus was referring to this statement as Scripture. The answer is no since His point was that the Sadducees 1) did not understand what the Scriptures taught about the resurrection, and 2) they did not understand that what a person believes about God and the way a person lives in this life determines their destiny. Our eternal destiny is not determined by where one is born. If marriage was allowed in the afterlife, then babies could gain admission into heaven or hell by birth. That is contrary to every teaching in Scripture. That was what the Sadducees failed to understand from the Scriptures.

Conclusion:
Did Jesus quote the book of Enoch in Matthew 22:29-30? No!

The Sadducees failed to understand the Scriptures. Jesus’ comment about the angels was new revelation provided by Jesus Christ Himself. He was constantly providing new revelation in His teaching. He did the same thing in Matthew 22:29-30.

The book of Enoch is fiction. The Jews did not include the book of Enoch in the Hebrew Bible, neither did the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestants in their Bibles.

When Jesus said you do not understand scriptures it was not a statement to validate the book of Enoch as scripture. It was an admonishment of the Sadducees for not knowing all scripture pertaining to the resurrection of marriage.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#55
Jesus quoting Enoch does not mean He is quoting the book of Enoch ;)
Actually he was quoting the book of Enoch...He even said so.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#58
Since everyone seems to be questioning the well traveled paths lately....

Why do you believe that certain books are Holy and some are not?

Age?
Authorship?
Content?

We have the 66 books as Cannon. Why?

Why do you think other books were excluded?
Your immortal Soul is dependent upon the theology you have isn't it?

Ugaritic tablets have a very similar story as Genesis but nobody quotes them....why?

Nobody reads the "The Assumption of Moses"....
throughout history isreal went through periodical times when God turned his face away from them and wasn’t inspiring thoer writings

in the ot it’s a huge issue with God he would take time to turn away so he didn’t destroy them and They would keep preaching their own messages from thier own heart and imaginations eventually the false prophets led isreals understanding astray and caused the curse of the ot to come forth

the ot false prophets are a huge problem and we are reminded also that false teachers would arise leading the church astray just as the ot prophets had

I believe that the texts wrotten during the times of suffering and punishment on Israel when he would stop speaking to them from anger and wrath because of their constant idolatry aren’t included because of that information some old Jewish texts are written during thy ode times and when you really look into some of them they lead the mknd away from bi local scripture and contradict many points

sometimes the Jews were kept in the dark but didn’t realize it so They kept speaking as if God was speaking to them still

other times God chose prophets during revival times and times of mercy and God calling and foretelling what he had planned if they relented from thier idolatry and those writings are inspired by God

the times of the texts matters a lot because of the rocky relationship they had with God
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#59
I find it not a little amusing that Catholics love to take credit for the Bible but they're the ones who ultimately rejected it in favor of the Magisterium and the Catechism.