Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

[Everlasting-Grace]

It was meant to say I understand...Not I und that. I accidentally cut part of the word while editing the post. I was in a hurry, I had a lot of posts to get through so I missed it. Sometimes the cursor turns up in the wrong place while I am deleting something, and I sometimes miss words that may get cut.
I looked it up in the dictionary to see why UND was so offensive, but couldn't find it. Is it a derogatory slang word?

Your talking to the king of misspelling and auto-correct error. I knew that is what you mean. that was not the issue,

It was your comment about "you used to believe that way" came across as if you knew what I was saying (when you did not) and since you did, You understood my error.

How can you understand my error. when you did not even understand what I was saying??

I am ignoring John?

Yes you are.

If you claim you are without sin, You deceive yourself and there is no truth in you.

Jesus is the Author of Salvation, and you completely ignore his teachings of Salvation.
With this said, Is Jesus the student..or the Master teacher? Your answer is obviously Jesus, but look at your salvation teachings. Do they actually show Jesus to be the Author of Salvation?
Can you teach, what you believe, by only using the Masters teachings? If you can't, you have made Paul the Author of your Salvation.

here you go again with your assumptions. and now you are bearing false witness.

I ignore his teachings?

I posted JESUS own words.. But I ignore him? (I could have posted so much more as I said. I just took the basics)

I posted words from John, Jesus Paul and the author of Hebrews.. And your going to sit there and say I just listen to paul?

Lets get back to the topic at hand

You claim sinless

John said you are decieved. He told you when you sin you have an advocate.
James told us to confess our sins to one another so there will be healing (not be a closed sinner but keep them in the open)

why did these men get it so wrong? why are you ignoring them, and attacking me??

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

one of the main judeaizer tricks- try to make Paul contradict Jesus.

Paul was Jesus's handpicked guy to carry the Gospel to the gentiles.

all those thousands that Paul spoke to that did not have the truth..

Amazing

 

[Goliath]

I posted JESUS own words.. But I ignore him? (I could have posted so much more as I said. I just took the basics)

I posted words from John, Jesus Paul and the author of Hebrews.. And your going to sit there and say

Lets get back to the topic at hand

You claim sinless

John said you are decieved. He told you when you sin you have an advocate.
James told us to confess our sins to one another so there will be healing (not be a closed sinner but keep them in the open)

why did these men get it so wrong? why are you ignoring them, and attacking me??

Well there are a few folks in here which have Grace in their names and I am probably lumping you in with all of them. So...my mistake and apology for that. I will need to keep a file or something to keep track.
And the other thing...I was referring to a time when I was in my 20-30's and I thought I was saved...so I did actually think I understood. A misunderstanding is better term for it....But anyway....Back to John.

You believe, John is saying, ....I am deceived.
Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe....John is referring to two types of Christian followers?
John clearly says in (1 John 3:9), those who are Born again can not sin. But for some reason, you reject this teaching,....and defer me to where he talks about folks who do sin.

Let me ask you this...In (John 8: 34-35), Do you see any difference between those who sin, and those Jesus calls Sons? Tell me...honestly....what do you see as the difference Between them?

(John 8:34-35) Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

 

[posthuman]

You seem to think that since Jesus is our rest, we are free to break the commandment to rest on Sabbath.

Jesus is our truth...so, are we free to break the commandment that forbids lying?

Jesus is our reward...so, are we free to break the commandment that forbids theft?

Jesus is our life, so are we free to break the commandment which forbids killing others or ourselves?

Jesus is our "Everlasting Father", so are we free to break the commandment which forbids dishonoring our parents?

i don't see how you rationally come to any of these conclusions every time you hear someone quote Hebrews 4:10

 

[posthuman]

You seem to think that since Jesus is our rest, we are free to break the commandment to rest on Sabbath.

Jesus is our truth...so, are we free to break the commandment that forbids lying?

Jesus is our reward...so, are we free to break the commandment that forbids theft?

Jesus is our life, so are we free to break the commandment which forbids killing others or ourselves?

Jesus is our "Everlasting Father", so are we free to break the commandment which forbids dishonoring our parents?

Jesus didn't die on the Cross to grant anyone a OSAS License to Sin

For he that is entered into His rest,
hath also ceased from his own works, as God from His.
(Hebrews 4:10 1599 GNV) ​

 

[Goliath]

one of the main judeaizer tricks- try to make Paul contradict Jesus.

Paul was Jesus's handpicked guy to carry the Gospel to the gentiles.

Unfortunately Paul didn't get that memo....notice the underscored...Paul doesn't mention his gospel.
We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing. Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
(2 Thessalonians 1:3-9)

 

[posthuman]

John clearly says in (1 John 3:9), those who are Born again can not sin. But for some reason, you reject this teaching,....and defer me to where he talks about folks who do sin.

Let me ask you this...In (John 8: 34-35), Do you see any difference between those who sin, and those Jesus calls Sons? Tell me...honestly....what do you see as the difference Between them?

(John 8:34-35) Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

do you understand that in 1 John 3:9 and in John 8:34 the Greek tense clearly indicates an ongoing practice of sin, not any one-time or short-term act of sin?
that the English language does not have such a tense, such that you may be deceived about what Christ is saying & John is reiterating, if you do not take the whole counsel of scripture?

if i in my flesh was sold as a slave into sin, was i a permanent member of the family of sin? was i a son of Belial? or a slave?
if i am a son of the family of God, do i belong to it forever or not? what can separate me from the love of God?
shall death? shall famine? shall thirst or weariness? powers or principalities? my own humble stupidity?

 

[posthuman]

Unfortunately Paul didn't get that memo....notice the underscored...Paul doesn't mention his gospel.
We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing. Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
(2 Thessalonians 1:3-9)

2 Thessalonians is interesting.
notice that he says their faith and their love for each other is evidence of their salvation, not their sinless lives of strict obedience to the law.
a pity you stopped with verse 9.

when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

(2 Thessalonians 1:9-12)​

​

again he points at their belief, not works, as commendable.
he very strangely never mentions anything about how they rest on every sabbath and certainly never meet on a sunday, and how wonderful that is??? hmm that's actually absent from any epistle. interesting.

but then he does a very strange thing after commending their faith, love and belief -- and says he prays for their works! that they will be counted worthy of calling, and that God -- who it is that wills and works in the believer -- will fulfill all His work in them!

the same pattern of argument is repeated in 2 Thessalonians 2 -- he talks about deception, and thanks God that they have been chosen for salvation by God, being set apart by the Spirit and their belief in the truth.
then - he prays again for their works!

Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. ​

(2 Thessalonians 2:16-17) ​

​

expressing his joy that he knows they are saved because of their belief, manifest by their love for each other & the witness of the Spirit, Paul's next logical step is to then pray that God comfort them and establish them in good speech and deeds!

sure seems like good speech and deeds are not prerequisite to salvation, and the lack of them, however temporary it may be ((is God not faithful to finish His work in us?)) isn't even evidence of their not having salvation: but what is evidence of salvation are these things: faith, belief in the truth, being marked by the Spirit, and having love for one another.

weirdly no mention of ceremonial physical observance of days anywhere in the epistle.

 

[fredoheaven]

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe....John is referring to two types of Christian followers?
John clearly says in (1 John 3:9), those who are Born again can not sin. But for some reason, you reject this teaching,....and defer me to where he talks about folks who do sin.

Man is a tripartite being, consisting of body, soul, and spirit. Our spirit is he that which is born again (John 3:6), our soul is the thing that is saved today, and our body will be redeemed in the future to make a glorious body. (Phil. 3:21). The one that cannot sin is the spirit but the flesh still sins. In summary, a person still sins because of the presence of the flesh but we have the advocate, our Lord Jesus Christ, we have the Holy Spirit that convinces us of sins done and the word of God that reveals those sins that we need to confess.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You believe, John is saying, ....I am deceived.

John very clearly said that those who claim to be "without sin are self deceived". v.8

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe....John is referring to two types of Christian followers?

Without a doubt!! Believers who are IN fellowship with the Lord, and believers who are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord.

John clearly says in (1 John 3:9), those who are Born again can not sin. But for some reason, you reject this teaching,....and defer me to where he talks about folks who do sin.

No, Everlasting Grace isn't rejecting what John wrote. You aren't understanding what he wrote.

Here is the verse: No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Red words refer to the NEW CREATURE, the born again, regenerated human spirit, which CANNOT sin.

God created Adam trichotomous: body, soul and human spirit. The day he ate the forbidden fruit, his human spirit DIED. His body began to die, and over time (900+ years) it did die. His soil will live forever, as all souls will.

So, because of sin, Adam became dichotomous, body and soul, and dragging around a dead non-functional human spirit.

When a person believes the gospel promise, they are said to be born again or regenerated. This specifically refers to the dead human spirit being "made alive", and the believer becomes a new creature (2 Cor 5:17) with body, soul and regenerated human spirit.

We know the Bible teaches that believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. The question is: where does the Spirit dwell in us?

The answer has to be the regenerated human spirit. Can't be either body or soul, since they were corrupted by sin. So believers, or new creatures, have TWO natures now. They still have their human sinful nature, and now that new nature, the regenerated human spirit.

When believers are IN fellowship ( 1 John 1), they are living or functioning from the human spirit. But when they are out of fellowship, they are living from their sinful nature.

Let me ask you this...In (John 8: 34-35), Do you see any difference between those who sin, and those Jesus calls Sons? Tell me...honestly....what do you see as the difference Between them?

34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.

v.34 is true for believers and unbelievers. When a person sins, they have made the choice of Romans 6:16 - Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

There is a choice here: slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. It's always a choice.

If you want to believe that Jesus and Paul were at odds, and taught contrary doctrines, that would be a problem.

Paul was very clear in Rom 6 and 7 that he continued to struggle with his own sin nature and sin. Rom 7 was written in the present tense. This is not some kind of "historic present". There are no words to support that claim.

1 Tim 1:15 - Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Notice again the present tense here. Paul said in real time that he was the worst. "I AM the worst (sinner)."

My hunch is that being a Pharisee, he had been very legalistic and self-righteous, like so many of the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

The sin he struggled with was probably pride, THE WORST sin ever. The one Satan began with. Isa 14:12-14

Getting saved didn't eliminate Paul's pride. He struggled with it continuously.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Reason it out...I do like your thinking.

My brother, Paul doesn't lay out a particular day of the week....and since most people do not work 24/7, they can gather whenever they like. Now you do make a good point.."If we work six days and rest on the Sabbath, it would be the best time to gather". And that's probably the very reason, the Jews gathered in the synagogues on the Sabbath. But...they didn't keep it as God told them to keep it...did they? And since they were already gathered, Wasn't it was a great opportunity for Jesus and the disciples to teach them?

Now the question, Are we still under Sabbath Law? For some, this is paramount to their teachings. But if it is an important part of our Salvation, why is it not mentioned in the passages below. Notice Jesus, nor his disciples, mention it as a sin anywhere in the entire New Testament.

No mention of Sabbath Law...Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
(Matthew 19:16-19)

Again...no mention of Sabbath breakers...He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
(Revelation 21:7-8)

What do you think?

Paul's example of "gathering" was on Sabbath, and we are to follow him as he "follows Christ" Who also set as our example of gathering on Sabbath, not Sunday. Sure, he "gathered" on Saturday night for a fellowship meal in Acts 20 (as well as the other Christians gathering "from house to house" daily) but there was no Sunday morning service anywhere in Acts 20 or in any of these other gatherings. It was on Sabbath that people were free from daily toil to "the" gathering where proper time was taken for worship, sermonizing, fellowship, singing, which proper execution was not possible on any other days of the week when work and toil consumed the entirety of the day where people labored for their daily bread. What say you, friend?

 

[Phoneman-777]

see post #794

It seems the only explanation you give concerning these verses is to ignore them and focus on the others which say the opposite. Is that the sum total of post #794 because I'd rather not read that, but read your explanation as close to real time as possible.

 

[Phoneman-777]

​

Nevertheless what does the Scripture say?​

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,​

for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman!"​

(Galatians 4:30) ​

Yes, the OC was to be cast out and the NC in which the Ten Commandments are written on the heart is to be taken up...the fourth commandment seems to me lacking in most "NC Christians" who are fallen short of it.​

​

they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple,​

and breaking bread from house to house, ​

did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart​

(Acts 2:46)​

There were many "gatherings" in the NT, such as here in Acts 2, the Saturday night gathering of Acts 20, etc., but only ONE gathering that was "THE" gathering: "THE" gathering on Sabbath, in accordance with the eternal law which God wrote with His own finger in stone.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well there's no need to go on...we both took our best shots...there is no convincing you, so I will just call it a draw.
But anyway....thanks for the discussion.
Enjoy your day off.

Thanks! And please remember that only those who "keep His commandments" have a "right to the Tree of Life and may enter into the gates to the city".

All those who claim to love Jesus but refuse to keep His commandments when they know they ought are "liars and the truth is not in him" according to 1 John 2:3-4 KJV. I pray any who once were convicted but have turned from the holy commandment delivered unto them will turn back, and that those who will come under conviction will walk in the light while they have it, lest darkness come upon them.

Shalom!

 

[posthuman]

It seems the only explanation you give concerning these verses is to ignore them and focus on the others which say the opposite. Is that the sum total of post #794 because I'd rather not read that, but read your explanation as close to real time as possible.

already told you in post #738 days ago
is it my fault if you refuse to read?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The reason that I accused you of cherry-picking from the letter to the Romans is very simple. Here is what you claimed.
Romans 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified.

Your interpretation is claiming that a person is saved by obeying the law.

I stopped reading here because the rest of your post is based upon this error. I say with the utmost emphasis that the verses "For not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law shall be justified in His sight" and "...he that doeth righteousness is righteous" in no way teach the law saves us. We are saved by grace through faith alone.

Now that you and I are clear, I would like you to explain what Paul and John mean in these verses without undoing the plainly stated word of them whatsoever. Are you able to, friend?

 

[Phoneman-777]

If you read the following verse you will notice the word "law'.

"Not the hearers of the law, BUT THE DOERS, shall be justified in His sight". (Romans 2:13)

Paul is not talking about the ten commandments here.

The word. 'law', is often mentioned in the New Testament and is always referring to the entire law of Moses.

The "law" does not always refer to the law of Moses nor can it be referring to the law of Moses in the NT because that was nailed to the Cross, while your Bible says the Ten Commandments "stand forever and ever".

There are several distinctions between the Law God wrote and the one Moses wrote, such as in Daniel 9:11, 2 Kings 21:8 KJV, and even in the NT where the Ten Commandments are called "holy, just, and good" in Romans 7 while the Mosaic law referring to the OT priesthood is called a "carnal commandment" in Hebrews 7...can the same law be both "holy" and "carnal"? (There are several other examples of this distinction, lest you think these alone comprise all of them).

BTW, Paul says "we establish the law", so are you making Paul say we establish the law of Moses since you claim "law" always refers to the Law of Moses?

 

[Phoneman-777]

" we " means jews.

gentiles were never under the Law of Moses.

Oh how Isaiah 56:6 KJV begs to differ

It plainly says a non-Israelite can take hold of the OT covenant and observe the Sabbath. Praise God we who are not Israel by birth are the ONLY Israel recognized as such by God today, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV and Galatians 6:15:16 KJV.

 

[Phoneman-777]

i don't see how you rationally come to any of these conclusions every time you hear someone quote Hebrews 4:10

Well, Hebrews 4 plainly says if we're resting in Jesus inwardly, we have an obligation to demonstrate that by resting outwardly from our work on Sabbath as God rested from His work.

"It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath. For he that has entered into His rest, he has ceased from his own works, as God did from His." Hebrews 4:9-10 Lamsa's Peshitta

 

[Phoneman-777]

​

For he that is entered into His rest, ​

hath also ceased from his own works, as God from His.​

(Hebrews 4:10 1599 GNV) ​

So, you're going to ignore the line of reasoning which destroys the idea that we can break the Sabbath commandment to rest on the seventh day the moment He becomes our rest when we invite Him into our heart?

Again, if accepting Jesus as our rest means we can break the Sabbath commandment, does the fact that Jesus is our truth mean we can now lie?

If He is our reward, can we now steal?

Will you and Magenta admit this line of reasoning is no basis at all for willfully sinning against Jesus by refusing to obey what He wrote with His own finger in stone?