Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
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A person can know that it was the right thing to do, to place someone on the Ignore list when after the task is complete, the disrupter thinks its funny . . . marked by the appropriate emoji. It's as if being placed on such a list is their reward for knowing that they've caused a problem. This wild thinking has existed since Cain and Abel . . . it's nothing new under the sun.
Abigail Intercedes for Nabal - Its a bit of a long(ish) story, but consider what David attributes to the Lord:
1 Samuel 25:23-39 NLT - "When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed low before him. 24 She fell at his feet and said, "I accept all blame in this matter, my lord. Please listen to what I have to say. 25 I know Nabal is a wicked and ill-tempered man; please don't pay any attention to him. He is a fool, just as his name suggests. But I never even saw the young men you sent. 26 "Now, my lord, as surely as the LORD lives and you yourself live, since the LORD has kept you from murdering and taking vengeance into your own hands, let all your enemies and those who try to harm you be as cursed as Nabal is. 27 And here is a present that I, your servant, have brought to you and your young men. 28 Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. The LORD will surely reward you with a lasting dynasty, for you are fighting the LORD's battles. And you have not done wrong throughout your entire life. 29 "Even when you are chased by those who seek to kill you, your life is safe in the care of the LORD your God, secure in his treasure pouch! But the lives of your enemies will disappear like stones shot from a sling! 30 When the LORD has done all he promised and has made you leader of Israel, 31 don't let this be a blemish on your record. Then your conscience won't have to bear the staggering burden of needless bloodshed and vengeance. And when the LORD has done these great things for you, please remember me, your servant!" 32 David replied to Abigail, "Praise the LORD, the God of Israel, who has sent you to meet me today! 33 Thank God for your good sense! Bless you for keeping me from murder and from carrying out vengeance with my own hands. 34 For I swear by the LORD, the God of Israel, who has kept me from hurting you, that if you had not hurried out to meet me, not one of Nabal's men would still be alive tomorrow morning." 35 Then David accepted her present and told her, "Return home in peace. I have heard what you said. We will not kill your husband." 36 When Abigail arrived home, she found that Nabal was throwing a big party and was celebrating like a king. He was very drunk, so she didn't tell him anything about her meeting with David until dawn the next day. 37 In the morning when Nabal was sober, his wife told him what had happened. As a result he had a stroke, and he lay paralyzed on his bed like a stone. 38 About ten days later, the LORD struck him, and he died. 39 When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, "Praise the LORD, who has avenged the insult I received from Nabal and has kept me from doing it myself. Nabal has received the punishment for his sin." Then David sent messengers to Abigail to ask her to become his wife."
This entire set of passages revolves around the Lord preventing David from seeking "redress by blood with your own hands," as Abigail puts it. David concludes with the admission that the Lord had arranged all events so that they would work out as they did. Think about that. Think about all of the minds that God was "tooling," just so that these events would take place before David and his future wife, Abigail. This is amazing Mind Control.
Look at the orchestrating Power of God and what He consistently does throughout the Bible. God kept David from killing Nabal by sending Abigail out to meet him, David. Clearly, God caused Abigail to do as she had done, which was to possess "good sense." The result is that the Plan of God was to keep David from hurting Abigail and to also avenge the insult to David so that David would not retaliate by harming not only Nabal but any of his men, thus keeping David innocent.
This story, if we believe it, cannot be unless the Lord controls the thoughts and decisions of those involved. It is impossible. Once again, this story defies the idea of free will.
1 Samuel 25:23-39 NLT - "When Abigail saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed low before him. 24 She fell at his feet and said, "I accept all blame in this matter, my lord. Please listen to what I have to say. 25 I know Nabal is a wicked and ill-tempered man; please don't pay any attention to him. He is a fool, just as his name suggests. But I never even saw the young men you sent. 26 "Now, my lord, as surely as the LORD lives and you yourself live, since the LORD has kept you from murdering and taking vengeance into your own hands, let all your enemies and those who try to harm you be as cursed as Nabal is. 27 And here is a present that I, your servant, have brought to you and your young men. 28 Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way. The LORD will surely reward you with a lasting dynasty, for you are fighting the LORD's battles. And you have not done wrong throughout your entire life. 29 "Even when you are chased by those who seek to kill you, your life is safe in the care of the LORD your God, secure in his treasure pouch! But the lives of your enemies will disappear like stones shot from a sling! 30 When the LORD has done all he promised and has made you leader of Israel, 31 don't let this be a blemish on your record. Then your conscience won't have to bear the staggering burden of needless bloodshed and vengeance. And when the LORD has done these great things for you, please remember me, your servant!" 32 David replied to Abigail, "Praise the LORD, the God of Israel, who has sent you to meet me today! 33 Thank God for your good sense! Bless you for keeping me from murder and from carrying out vengeance with my own hands. 34 For I swear by the LORD, the God of Israel, who has kept me from hurting you, that if you had not hurried out to meet me, not one of Nabal's men would still be alive tomorrow morning." 35 Then David accepted her present and told her, "Return home in peace. I have heard what you said. We will not kill your husband." 36 When Abigail arrived home, she found that Nabal was throwing a big party and was celebrating like a king. He was very drunk, so she didn't tell him anything about her meeting with David until dawn the next day. 37 In the morning when Nabal was sober, his wife told him what had happened. As a result he had a stroke, and he lay paralyzed on his bed like a stone. 38 About ten days later, the LORD struck him, and he died. 39 When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, "Praise the LORD, who has avenged the insult I received from Nabal and has kept me from doing it myself. Nabal has received the punishment for his sin." Then David sent messengers to Abigail to ask her to become his wife."
This entire set of passages revolves around the Lord preventing David from seeking "redress by blood with your own hands," as Abigail puts it. David concludes with the admission that the Lord had arranged all events so that they would work out as they did. Think about that. Think about all of the minds that God was "tooling," just so that these events would take place before David and his future wife, Abigail. This is amazing Mind Control.
Look at the orchestrating Power of God and what He consistently does throughout the Bible. God kept David from killing Nabal by sending Abigail out to meet him, David. Clearly, God caused Abigail to do as she had done, which was to possess "good sense." The result is that the Plan of God was to keep David from hurting Abigail and to also avenge the insult to David so that David would not retaliate by harming not only Nabal but any of his men, thus keeping David innocent.
This story, if we believe it, cannot be unless the Lord controls the thoughts and decisions of those involved. It is impossible. Once again, this story defies the idea of free will.
And again, we visit the forced relationship between king Saul and David. Look at who David attributes the actions of Saul to:
1 Samuel 26:17-19 NKJV - "Then Saul knew David's voice, and said, "Is that your voice, my son David?" David said, "It is my voice, my lord, O king." And he said, "Why does my lord thus pursue his servant? For what have I done, or what evil is in my hand? "Now therefore, please, let my lord the king hear the words of his servant: If the LORD has stirred you up against me, let Him accept an offering. But if it is the children of men, may they be cursed before the LORD, for they have driven me out this day from sharing in the inheritance of the LORD, saying, 'Go, serve other gods."
And this is what we should expect, as we all know that God stripped Saul of the Good Spirit that influenced his thinking to an Evil Spirit that is again, and possibly, stirring up his thoughts to conspire against David.
So, the evidence that Saul does not have the ability to choose his own thoughts, desires, emotions, and actions against David is disturbing. And this is why David never attacks Saul, because David knows that Saul is being guided by God Himself, and who is David to stop the Plans of God?
David is clearly suggesting that God is causing Saul to act against him as he, the king, is. Is this the will of Saul or the will of the Lord? - David questions why Saul would pursue him, David. What are the possible answers to this question? There's only one answer, and it is that the good Spirit had been taken out of Saul, and replaced with an evil spirit who causes Saul to think and do evil.
1 Samuel 26:17-19 NKJV - "Then Saul knew David's voice, and said, "Is that your voice, my son David?" David said, "It is my voice, my lord, O king." And he said, "Why does my lord thus pursue his servant? For what have I done, or what evil is in my hand? "Now therefore, please, let my lord the king hear the words of his servant: If the LORD has stirred you up against me, let Him accept an offering. But if it is the children of men, may they be cursed before the LORD, for they have driven me out this day from sharing in the inheritance of the LORD, saying, 'Go, serve other gods."
And this is what we should expect, as we all know that God stripped Saul of the Good Spirit that influenced his thinking to an Evil Spirit that is again, and possibly, stirring up his thoughts to conspire against David.
So, the evidence that Saul does not have the ability to choose his own thoughts, desires, emotions, and actions against David is disturbing. And this is why David never attacks Saul, because David knows that Saul is being guided by God Himself, and who is David to stop the Plans of God?
David is clearly suggesting that God is causing Saul to act against him as he, the king, is. Is this the will of Saul or the will of the Lord? - David questions why Saul would pursue him, David. What are the possible answers to this question? There's only one answer, and it is that the good Spirit had been taken out of Saul, and replaced with an evil spirit who causes Saul to think and do evil.
Once again, let's look at what God CAUSED a king to do:
1 Chronicles 5:26 NLT - "So the God of Israel caused King Pul of Assyria (also known as Tiglath-pileser) to invade the land and take away the people of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh as captives. The Assyrians exiled them to Halah, Habor, Hara, and the Gozan River, where they remain to this day."
Yes, it was God who infiltrated the mind of Pul with the purpose of placing the above mentioned tribes into exile. Would these tribes have been taken captive if God had not caused king Pul to think and act as he did? If we say "Yes," then where is the free will of the king to choose such actions? King Pul believed that he was in control of his thinking, for if you asked him, he would have said that beyond a shadow of doubt, he was in control of his thoughts, decisions, and actions, but according to Scripture, it was God who caused king Pul to think and act exactly as he did. Why?
Ephesians 1:11 NLT - "Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan."
Or, do those who believe that they are in total control of their lives reject the idea that God has a Plan for all of creation? We cannot have it both ways, which is to say that we are in control of the events and decisions of our lives, yet also claim that God is sovereign, omniscient, and in control. As king David said, "Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed."
1 Chronicles 5:26 NLT - "So the God of Israel caused King Pul of Assyria (also known as Tiglath-pileser) to invade the land and take away the people of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh as captives. The Assyrians exiled them to Halah, Habor, Hara, and the Gozan River, where they remain to this day."
Yes, it was God who infiltrated the mind of Pul with the purpose of placing the above mentioned tribes into exile. Would these tribes have been taken captive if God had not caused king Pul to think and act as he did? If we say "Yes," then where is the free will of the king to choose such actions? King Pul believed that he was in control of his thinking, for if you asked him, he would have said that beyond a shadow of doubt, he was in control of his thoughts, decisions, and actions, but according to Scripture, it was God who caused king Pul to think and act exactly as he did. Why?
Ephesians 1:11 NLT - "Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan."
Or, do those who believe that they are in total control of their lives reject the idea that God has a Plan for all of creation? We cannot have it both ways, which is to say that we are in control of the events and decisions of our lives, yet also claim that God is sovereign, omniscient, and in control. As king David said, "Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed."
As I have shown over and over, an Eternal Plan is being executed; hopefully, we're nearing the final "stage."
Psalm 102:12-13 NIV - "But you, LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations. You will arise and have compassion on Zion, for it is time to show favor to her; the appointed time has come."
Clearly, an Almighty, Eternal Plan is being followed, and we are the subject matter. The Plan revolves around Jesus and how He will redeem us from this chaotic world and Adamic Curse. - John 03:16-17 . . . N I V: – “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
Christ will arise and have compassion on Zion: See Rom 11:26, as it speaks of "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . ."
This entire set of text screams “Plan”! In this text, the Bible refers to a later time when Israel as a Nation, after having been placed into a “deep sleep” (and this is totally against personal free will (if it Truly exists), will be awakened. The text clearly states that these things will occur at an appointed time. Think about it: For there to be an Eternal Plan, all “things” must and will have their appointed time, just as Judas Iscariot and his evil deeds were all performed at a specific, planned time. Even the life of Judas Iscariot proves that God has been executing His Eternal Plan.
Consider the below text regarding the actions of Judas . . . - John 13:26-27 . . . N L T: - “Jesus responded, "It is the one to whom I give the bread I dip in the bowl." And when he had dipped it, he gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you're going to do."
Were these things pre-Planned, or was this remarkable event an accident? Was it all by coincidence that Judas was given an evil spirit by which to influence him to perform his evil deeds? Was this really the choice of Judas? Did Jesus and the disciples perform a seance to invoke a demon by which to indwell Judas? Or, did Jesus send this evil spirit just as the Lord sent an evil spirit into king Saul (all at an appointed time)?
1 Samuel 16 14 . . . K J V: - “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”
Psalm 102:12-13 NIV - "But you, LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations. You will arise and have compassion on Zion, for it is time to show favor to her; the appointed time has come."
Clearly, an Almighty, Eternal Plan is being followed, and we are the subject matter. The Plan revolves around Jesus and how He will redeem us from this chaotic world and Adamic Curse. - John 03:16-17 . . . N I V: – “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
Christ will arise and have compassion on Zion: See Rom 11:26, as it speaks of "And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob . . ."
This entire set of text screams “Plan”! In this text, the Bible refers to a later time when Israel as a Nation, after having been placed into a “deep sleep” (and this is totally against personal free will (if it Truly exists), will be awakened. The text clearly states that these things will occur at an appointed time. Think about it: For there to be an Eternal Plan, all “things” must and will have their appointed time, just as Judas Iscariot and his evil deeds were all performed at a specific, planned time. Even the life of Judas Iscariot proves that God has been executing His Eternal Plan.
Consider the below text regarding the actions of Judas . . . - John 13:26-27 . . . N L T: - “Jesus responded, "It is the one to whom I give the bread I dip in the bowl." And when he had dipped it, he gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, "Hurry and do what you're going to do."
Were these things pre-Planned, or was this remarkable event an accident? Was it all by coincidence that Judas was given an evil spirit by which to influence him to perform his evil deeds? Was this really the choice of Judas? Did Jesus and the disciples perform a seance to invoke a demon by which to indwell Judas? Or, did Jesus send this evil spirit just as the Lord sent an evil spirit into king Saul (all at an appointed time)?
1 Samuel 16 14 . . . K J V: - “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.”
Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look
It looks pretty exhausted already.
The key thing to remember is what God's will is...
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It looks pretty exhausted already.
The key thing to remember is what God's will is...
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I hear you, but I haven't even offered up half of what is to come. And that is what I find interesting: an overwhelming amount of Scripture demonstrates how God is in control over so many people, animals, and events. And this is why I have my opinion; it is because of the evidence that points to a sense of clear free will and that God is in full control. Likely, I will always struggle with understanding how God does what He does. I cannot deny that at least a portion of us is free to choose, but there are other elements of this life and world that are clearly under the Power and dominion of God.
And so . . . I will keep posting until I have exhausted these cataloged Scriptures, as I think that this side of God's Word that is both good and necessary for all to see.
And so . . . I will keep posting until I have exhausted these cataloged Scriptures, as I think that this side of God's Word that is both good and necessary for all to see.
oyster67 said:
Because He is sovereign, He can choose to give us a choice.
This isn't complex or difficult.
God is sovereign. Therefore, He CAN choose to do whatever He wants with His creation.
His choice for mankind was to give them the ability to make choices about anything and everything.
With a bit of common sense, this doesn't mean that a person can choose to change the weather by his own will. That's NOT making a choice. That's just a fantasy.
Titus 2:11 makes it absolutely crystal clear that God's grace offers salvation to everyone.
And there are consequences for man's choices.
If man chooses to believe that God exists (Rom 1:19-20) and believes in the promise of salvation in the gospel, God guarantees he will go to heaven. But, otoh, if man doesn't believe that God exists, and therefore the promise of salvation, God guarantees that he will NOT go to heaven, but rather be cast into the lake of fire.
Does that sound unreasonable to you?
Because He is sovereign, He can choose to give us a choice.
This isn't complex or difficult.
God is sovereign. Therefore, He CAN choose to do whatever He wants with His creation.
His choice for mankind was to give them the ability to make choices about anything and everything.
With a bit of common sense, this doesn't mean that a person can choose to change the weather by his own will. That's NOT making a choice. That's just a fantasy.
Titus 2:11 makes it absolutely crystal clear that God's grace offers salvation to everyone.
And there are consequences for man's choices.
If man chooses to believe that God exists (Rom 1:19-20) and believes in the promise of salvation in the gospel, God guarantees he will go to heaven. But, otoh, if man doesn't believe that God exists, and therefore the promise of salvation, God guarantees that he will NOT go to heaven, but rather be cast into the lake of fire.
Does that sound unreasonable to you?
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Titus
2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
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Psalm 107:40-43 NKJV - "He pours contempt on princes, And causes them to wander in the wilderness where there is no way; Yet He sets the poor on high, far from affliction, And makes their families like a flock. The righteous see it and rejoice, And all iniquity stops its mouth. Whoever is wise will observe these things, And they will understand the lovingkindness of the LORD."
Who is causing princes to wander in trackless wastes? Who makes a family like a large flock? Is it us? Are we utilizing our sense of “free will” to ensure that our family is that of a large flock? Or, it is the Lord who causes all things to work out according to His Plan . . . His Will? And again . . . what is so beautiful about having a solid grasp of this level of God’s Holy Control is at least two-fold: 1. We will realize that we belong to His Holy Remnant, and 2. We will find assurance and extreme confidence in knowing that God has control over our lives. - Think about it: Would you be more confident in your Eternal Salvation if it were in the Right Hand of God that was doing all of the Work or if your Eternal Destiny were founded upon your personal power? Can we Truly have an assurance of Eternal Life if it is because of our decision-making that accomplishes our goal? Or, does it seem more reasonable that we would have total assurance if it is our Lord who completes His Good Work within us?
Ephesians 2 8-10 . . . NIV: – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Who is causing princes to wander in trackless wastes? Who makes a family like a large flock? Is it us? Are we utilizing our sense of “free will” to ensure that our family is that of a large flock? Or, it is the Lord who causes all things to work out according to His Plan . . . His Will? And again . . . what is so beautiful about having a solid grasp of this level of God’s Holy Control is at least two-fold: 1. We will realize that we belong to His Holy Remnant, and 2. We will find assurance and extreme confidence in knowing that God has control over our lives. - Think about it: Would you be more confident in your Eternal Salvation if it were in the Right Hand of God that was doing all of the Work or if your Eternal Destiny were founded upon your personal power? Can we Truly have an assurance of Eternal Life if it is because of our decision-making that accomplishes our goal? Or, does it seem more reasonable that we would have total assurance if it is our Lord who completes His Good Work within us?
Ephesians 2 8-10 . . . NIV: – “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
For those of you who believe in "free will," I ask this question: Does anyone have the power and ability to cause your heart to turn against another person? And when a person does something horrific against you, is your heart forced to turn against that person, unable to Love and forgive? Does any person possess this power over you or do you have a choice in how you feel?
Regarding David, we don't find that his forced enemies have this option:
Psalm 105:24-25 KJV - "And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants."
God controls two things, here. First, God made Israel to be very fruitful, too numerous and strong for their enemies, and second, God caused the minds and hearts of Israel's enemies to hate the Jews, the Lord’s chosen ones, and to conspire against His "servants."
Who, other than God, has this incredible Power? Who can take an entire group of people and cause them to hate Israel? Is this fair? Those who believe in free will, will have no rest over passages such as these, but they are undeniable in that God has the Power and ability to cause entire Nations to think, feel, and act precisely as He, the Lord . . . wishes.
And herein lies the value of knowing the Bible in a timeline, chronological order . . . the Eternal Plan of God becomes clear and obvious. God does all of these things to prove His Almighty control and Power so as to execute and establish His Eternal Plan; a Plan that points to and revolves around our Savior, Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."
Are "you" famiar with this Plan? Are you even aware of this Plan? Do you acknowledge that this Plan revolves around the actual, full Gospel of Jesus Christ? This Plan IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it revolves around the idea that God chooses us and that we do not choose Him. So as we come to know the Power of God in the Old Testament, it lends credulity to the below passage:
John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."
But until we come to know this full story and Eternal Plan of God, these things will remain elusive. We will not understand them.
Regarding David, we don't find that his forced enemies have this option:
Psalm 105:24-25 KJV - "And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies. He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants."
God controls two things, here. First, God made Israel to be very fruitful, too numerous and strong for their enemies, and second, God caused the minds and hearts of Israel's enemies to hate the Jews, the Lord’s chosen ones, and to conspire against His "servants."
Who, other than God, has this incredible Power? Who can take an entire group of people and cause them to hate Israel? Is this fair? Those who believe in free will, will have no rest over passages such as these, but they are undeniable in that God has the Power and ability to cause entire Nations to think, feel, and act precisely as He, the Lord . . . wishes.
And herein lies the value of knowing the Bible in a timeline, chronological order . . . the Eternal Plan of God becomes clear and obvious. God does all of these things to prove His Almighty control and Power so as to execute and establish His Eternal Plan; a Plan that points to and revolves around our Savior, Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 3:11 NLT - "This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord."
Are "you" famiar with this Plan? Are you even aware of this Plan? Do you acknowledge that this Plan revolves around the actual, full Gospel of Jesus Christ? This Plan IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for it revolves around the idea that God chooses us and that we do not choose Him. So as we come to know the Power of God in the Old Testament, it lends credulity to the below passage:
John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."
But until we come to know this full story and Eternal Plan of God, these things will remain elusive. We will not understand them.
This is the error of the anti-freedom of choicers. You try to argue a "free will" that doesn't exist. So go ahead, and keep building up your straw men.
Everyone has the ability (hardly "power") to change their minds about others. All it takes is facts, experience, etc.
I've had pleasant conversations with other posters until I disagreed with a point made. Then they became nasty. They changed their minds about me, all because I disagreed with a point they made. My disagreement led some of them to even charge me with ad hominem, when all I did was disagree and back it up with verses.
So yes, everyone has the ability (it's actually freedom to change your mind) regarding others.
But you use words to make "free will (which is simply freedom to choose/change your mind) look silly, evil, etc.
Of course everyone has that choice. That is freedom. Your words "is your heart forced to turn against that person" is hardly a reasonable question. When YOU have ever changed your mind, was it your heart FORCING you to make that change? No, that would be silly.
Please explain what a "forced enemy" is. And provide an example.
Just one question. Were these other nations initially pleasant toward Israel or ALREADY antagonistic toward them. You tell me. And provide Scripture that suports your answer.
No one doubts God's omnipotence. You are preaching to the choir here.
Go ahead and accuse God of being unfair. Not very smart though. The real question is what was the initial attitude of these other nations when Israel appeared?
Oh, and btw, let's look at the Promised Land. All the nations IN the land were extremely EVIL. God promised His people that land, and told them to wipe out every man, woman, child, and animal!!
How would you react to being commanded by God to kill children? Do you understand WHY God commanded the Jews to do that?
No need to be so dramatic. There is nothing in ANY of the passages you have provided that should give anyone who believes in freedom of all choices distress.
You aren't looking deeply enough. Check out the nations' initial attitude toward the Jews. Or in the case of the Promised Land, how EVIL the people were. God didn't want any EVIL people dwelling in the Promised Land.
Still preaching to the choir.
Jesus said this to 11 disciples, who were also the apostles. Don't use this verse to support the calvinist notion of election to salvation.
You need to re-think your own view of freedom of choice, which is generally called "free will".
There is NO POWER in freedom of choice. It's simply a decision made. Choosing A over B doesn't take "power" as you guys keep trying to argue.
Actually, choosing A over B only requires a mind with a conscience. No "power" needed.
Everyone has the ability (hardly "power") to change their minds about others. All it takes is facts, experience, etc.
I've had pleasant conversations with other posters until I disagreed with a point made. Then they became nasty. They changed their minds about me, all because I disagreed with a point they made. My disagreement led some of them to even charge me with ad hominem, when all I did was disagree and back it up with verses.
So yes, everyone has the ability (it's actually freedom to change your mind) regarding others.
But you use words to make "free will (which is simply freedom to choose/change your mind) look silly, evil, etc.
Of course everyone has that choice. That is freedom. Your words "is your heart forced to turn against that person" is hardly a reasonable question. When YOU have ever changed your mind, was it your heart FORCING you to make that change? No, that would be silly.
Please explain what a "forced enemy" is. And provide an example.
Just one question. Were these other nations initially pleasant toward Israel or ALREADY antagonistic toward them. You tell me. And provide Scripture that suports your answer.
No one doubts God's omnipotence. You are preaching to the choir here.
Go ahead and accuse God of being unfair. Not very smart though. The real question is what was the initial attitude of these other nations when Israel appeared?
Oh, and btw, let's look at the Promised Land. All the nations IN the land were extremely EVIL. God promised His people that land, and told them to wipe out every man, woman, child, and animal!!
How would you react to being commanded by God to kill children? Do you understand WHY God commanded the Jews to do that?
No need to be so dramatic. There is nothing in ANY of the passages you have provided that should give anyone who believes in freedom of all choices distress.
You aren't looking deeply enough. Check out the nations' initial attitude toward the Jews. Or in the case of the Promised Land, how EVIL the people were. God didn't want any EVIL people dwelling in the Promised Land.
Still preaching to the choir.
Jesus said this to 11 disciples, who were also the apostles. Don't use this verse to support the calvinist notion of election to salvation.
You need to re-think your own view of freedom of choice, which is generally called "free will".
There is NO POWER in freedom of choice. It's simply a decision made. Choosing A over B doesn't take "power" as you guys keep trying to argue.
Actually, choosing A over B only requires a mind with a conscience. No "power" needed.