Both progressive and traditional types of Christians blatantly disobey the Bible... and this example about men and women proves it.

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Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,022
1,506
113
#21
christianity today is a far cry from what it was in the 1st century that is true. we have no idea what kind of people the apostle's were and how they ran things. few bible verses don't really tell you nothing about how someone is in person. you can read a book written by an author today but you don't know him until you spend time with him in real life.

i know for sure they would probably be more like the orthodox jews or muslims of today, meaning you cant go to church with a miniskirt if you're a woman or shorts if you're a man. probably more strict, you cant be watching netflix, you should wear a head covering as a woman, you shouldn't be getting tattoos everywhere as a man or woman, you shouldn't be letting your woman pay the bills if you're a man in marriage.

many things we do today they would not approve of, i am sure.
 
C

ChristianTonyB

Guest
#22
Outward expressions of honour are only of benefit if they are truly reflective of what is happening in the heart. Otherwise it is most likely hypocrisy at play. One could argue that if the heart was sound and the mind acted in concert with it, and godly action followed, wouldn't any other parallel expression be superfluous? What if it was an impromptu meeting, and there was no headwear to be found. Should we force the woman from our midst?... I don't think so!
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#23
15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given [a]to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
Talk about cherry picking........ well, more like failing to understand Scripture.

GOODNESS........

A womans LONG HAIR IS HER COVERING!!!!!!

Please enjoy your time here on CC, but, hey, before you begin to teach us, be sure you understand Scripture correctly..........
 

montana123

Active member
Oct 9, 2021
718
248
43
#24
I am new here. Please help me unpack this, and tell me why do you think most ignore this part of the Bible? First, here is some art I made. It's based upon my wife, wearing a head covering as she prays and prophesies.


It looks like we all cherry-pick the Bible. Even those of us that consider ourselves to be hardcore Bible believing Christians of the traditionalist type. We like to point out how progressive Christians deconstruct, deform, or dismiss certain scriptures. It is strange that most of us western Christians do the same thing with the first part of 1 Corinthians 11.

1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given [a]to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

The Corinth Church was out of line because they were not following the traditions that Paul previously taught them. He sent a letter reminding them that men should not cover their heads and women should cover their heads when they pray or prophesy. He also had instructions about the Lord's Supper. This is not about fashion nor food... but liturgy and proper worship.

In verse 16, it is written that the churches of God do not have a custom of a woman praying with her head u-n-c-o-v-e-r-e-d. So for centuries after Paul's letter women covered their heads in church... all the way until the sexual revolution and the feminist movement starting in the 1960's. Now, only certain denominations follow the instructions. Most Western churches ignore these holy scriptures. The people I talk to about this mostly have never heard of it. Or, they pretend that the scriptures mean other things, like it is about women having long hair, or that the letter was ONLY for the Corinthians, or it was a cultural thing of that time, or some other untrue thing. They skip that part of the scripture and only give attention to the part about the Lord's Supper.

Here is a pretty good article that explains the background and history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering

You might think that it is not a big deal if a guy wears a ball cap in church or if a woman does not cover her head. But head covering is not something Paul briefly touched on casually with a single sentence, like the "holy kiss" or "drink a little wine to help your stomach". See how Paul elaborated on the theology of it. The fact that Paul wrote that all the churches practiced this means that it is not merely an instruction unique to the area of Corinth. ADDITIONALLY, and more importantly, the fact that he connected this practice with creation, the natural order, and the Angels makes it a universality. After all, Angels are every time and place. THIS IS NO SMALL THING. A man not covering his head and a woman covering her head, this is an act of worship that shows that we are submitted to God.

It seems that we have now set aside holy scripture, mainly for feminist pride. And this distortion or deconstruction of holy scripture for an agenda has made the way for gay pride to do the same thing. Do we accept the writings of Paul, or just the parts we like? So, was the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul? If we listen to Paul when it comes to the gifts of the spirit, the Lord's Supper, and on and on, why not about head coverings?

And the next thing you know, many Christians will cherry-pick the words of Christ, and ignore His definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman (Matthew 19:4-6). Wait, that is already happening....
1 Corinthians 11:10,13-15 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

The covering for the women is hair not a material covering.

It is a shame for a man to have short hair and even nature teaches that and it is a glory for women to have long hair and they ought to have long hair, power on their head because of the angels because women are authority above the angels.

I know some people do not like to hear that as many men and women say do not tell me what length to have my hair and it does not make a difference but God wants a distinction between men and women.

And many people do not like to hear that for they say the covering is a material cloth but the Bible says it is hair that is the covering for women.

But a lot of the time the foundation the Church they go to lays down is what they will go along with and fight about it tooth and nail.

1 Corinthians 11:4-7 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

A man that has long hair dishonors his head when he is praying or prophesying.

And every woman that does not have long hair dishonors her head.

If a women has short hair she is putting herself in the place of a man, and it seems like women cannot cut their hair at all or it is the same as if she is shorn or shaven.

A man should have short hair because he is in the image of God so Jesus would of had short hair for He came in the image of God.

But many people portray Jesus as having long hair but He would of had short hair.

The 1960's counterculture movement was of rebellion against authority and what did they do the men grew their hair long.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,820
8,596
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#26
Paul goes back to the garden of Eden just before saying about the angels, when Authority was upsurged ?

8For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Maybe God is using the assembly to demonstrate something to the Angelic realm ?

Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

are they being taught something?
 
Jun 2, 2022
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#27
Paul uses hair as an example as he does creation and the garden of Eden, its about authority and submission. All the churches practiced this until recently. They all read it as a veil or covering, they only changed their teachings with the onset of woman's lib and equality etc in the present age. I do not think it is a salvation issue, but if scripture says something it says something like it or not, we cant change things just because it is no longer PC.

Look up the Greek word translated covered in verse 6, it is Katakalupto, a compound word of Kata - meaning "down" and Kalupto - meaning to cover up. Does this not sound like a veil to you?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,820
8,596
113
#28
Paul goes back to the garden of Eden just before saying about the angels, when Authority was upsurged ?

8For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Maybe God is using the assembly to demonstrate something to the Angelic realm ?

Ephesians 3:9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

are they being taught something?
Your rendering could be absolutely correct.

We know that the angels look into things like God’s plan of Salvation, so I’m sure they’re curious about other aspects of Gods plans.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,763
113
#29
You are Wrong about head covering for woman.. You have misread the passage.. Paul explained to them that God gave woman long hair for a covering.. That woman do not need an extra head covering because they already have one.. If they have long hair..
Quite the opposite. Since the long hair of women is a given (setting aside the wordly Western fads which started in the early 20th century) why would Paul bother to even mention this if that were true? So obviously you have missed the point of his teaching (and misread the passage).

Paul in fact says that Christian women must cover their heads during worship precisely because of their hair being their "glory" (which must be hidden in the presence of the glory of God). Therefore they are required to wear the symbol of submission to authority (the head covering called "power" from exousia in the KJV) while worshipping, because of the angels. It is because God the Father is the "Head" or authority over Christ, and the husband is the "head" or authority over the wife, that this is what God requires. The angels observe the submission of the church to Christ in this matter (which includes the submission of wives to their own husbands) through this symbolic means. As to single women, they are simply submitting to God. [On the other hand, men are to uncover their heads during Christian worship, and also shun long hair].

Paul goes on to say that if anyone is contentious about this, he or she must understand that there is no such CUSTOM* (or practice) -- as uncovered heads -- in the Christian churches. If he were referring to ordinary hair, they are simply natural, and have nothing to do with "custom". But the head covering (a veil or mantilla) is not natural thus a "custom", and in fact an "ordinance" in the Christian churches. He begins by talking about the ordinances, then goes on to discuss the ordinance of the Lord's Supper.

*Strong's Concordance
sunétheia: habit, habitual use
Original Word: συνήθεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: sunétheia
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-ay'-thi-ah)
Definition: habit, habitual use
Usage: a custom, habit, practice.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,424
113
#30
I don't think women stopped wearing head coverings because of feminist pride; it's just that head coverings are no longer in fashion at least in western churches. Even prior to this "feminist" movement, women did not wear head coverings/scarfs but more elaborate/decorative hats to church. I don't think these huge colorful looking hats have the same meaning as head coverings which are supposed to convey humility and devotion; they were more intended as fashion statements. Also, during Paul's times, women wore head coverings and it was part of the culture. Women also wore robes/dresses to their feet/ankles. If women started showing their knees back then, that would be scandalous. I believe the same logic applies to head coverings; back then if a women did not wear a head covering she was a bit naked, just like showing her knee. However, such is not the case nowadays.
Paul uses hair as an example as he does creation and the garden of Eden, its about authority and submission. All the churches practiced this until recently. They all read it as a veil or covering, they only changed their teachings with the onset of woman's lib and equality etc in the present age. I do not think it is a salvation issue, but if scripture says something it says something like it or not, we cant change things just because it is no longer PC.

Look up the Greek word translated covered in verse 6, it is Katakalupto, a compound word of Kata - meaning "down" and Kalupto - meaning to cover up. Does this not sound like a veil to you?
Living a Christian life goes much deeper than head covering. Christ told us the kingdom of heaven had come, and we are told it is not like the kingdom of the world.

The kingdom of the world are ruled by money, of gathering material things. It is temporary. The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and is eternal. It is ruled by love. We are born into the kingdom of the world, driven to supply the wants of the flesh like big houses, fancy cars, jewelry, worldly prestige. We must be born again to live in the kingdom of heaven, we are to value what is of that kingdom as most important to us. We need to be able to give up some material things to give to others.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,095
6,479
113
#31
There is one very important verse that the Author of the OP must not fully understand:

. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

As the Apostle says here, the Churches he founds/instructs "have on such custom" or tradition if you will. "Nor do the Churches of God"

This is why the Church of God Reformation Movement does not follow the traditions/customs of the Jews from the 1st Covenant. We follow the Law of the New Covenant, Faith! We do obey the teachings of Jesus, especially in His instructions concerning Baptism, Communion, and Feet Washing. He explicitly stated we should do as He did. He gave us the example we are to follow, and we do.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
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#32
I think it has to do with the events around Gen 6.

But that would be speculative.
Women who wore their hair short displayed their rebellion against God and nature opening themselves up to the angels that sinned to take them for wives. Your thoughts?
 

Jesusfollower

Active member
Oct 21, 2021
352
195
43
jamaica
#33
Christ unites and saves, Paul divides. In every thread i see, when Paul is mentioned, division is certain to follow. Now why is that?

Blessing
 
Jun 2, 2022
36
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#34
Christ unites and saves, Paul divides. In every thread i see, when Paul is mentioned, division is certain to follow. Now why is that?

Blessing
I said about Paul causing controversy as a joke, Paul gives us the bulk of our doctrine be it Baptism or the gospel. We all have our church traditions we like to stick to, albeit most of them based on gnostism rather than the Bible. Lets quote Christ and see how united we are. I think controversy will follow Christ just as much in reality :)



John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Looks like we do not go to heaven when we die huh, waits for the division to follow :)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
13,320
113
#35
There's more going on with this passage than most modern readers understand. The gulf of cultural (and scientific) change has obfuscated Paul's original meaning, and veiled the scandal that he addressed in this chapter.

In short, this is a non-issue today.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#36
There's more going on with this passage than most modern readers understand. The gulf of cultural (and scientific) change has obfuscated Paul's original meaning, and veiled the scandal that he addressed in this chapter.

In short, this is a non-issue today.
Culture never dictates doctrine.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
3,644
2,863
113
#38
I am new here. Please help me unpack this, and tell me why do you think most ignore this part of the Bible? First, here is some art I made. It's based upon my wife, wearing a head covering as she prays and prophesies.


It looks like we all cherry-pick the Bible. Even those of us that consider ourselves to be hardcore Bible believing Christians of the traditionalist type. We like to point out how progressive Christians deconstruct, deform, or dismiss certain scriptures. It is strange that most of us western Christians do the same thing with the first part of 1 Corinthians 11.

1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given [a]to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.

The Corinth Church was out of line because they were not following the traditions that Paul previously taught them. He sent a letter reminding them that men should not cover their heads and women should cover their heads when they pray or prophesy. He also had instructions about the Lord's Supper. This is not about fashion nor food... but liturgy and proper worship.

In verse 16, it is written that the churches of God do not have a custom of a woman praying with her head u-n-c-o-v-e-r-e-d. So for centuries after Paul's letter women covered their heads in church... all the way until the sexual revolution and the feminist movement starting in the 1960's. Now, only certain denominations follow the instructions. Most Western churches ignore these holy scriptures. The people I talk to about this mostly have never heard of it. Or, they pretend that the scriptures mean other things, like it is about women having long hair, or that the letter was ONLY for the Corinthians, or it was a cultural thing of that time, or some other untrue thing. They skip that part of the scripture and only give attention to the part about the Lord's Supper.

Here is a pretty good article that explains the background and history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_head_covering

You might think that it is not a big deal if a guy wears a ball cap in church or if a woman does not cover her head. But head covering is not something Paul briefly touched on casually with a single sentence, like the "holy kiss" or "drink a little wine to help your stomach". See how Paul elaborated on the theology of it. The fact that Paul wrote that all the churches practiced this means that it is not merely an instruction unique to the area of Corinth. ADDITIONALLY, and more importantly, the fact that he connected this practice with creation, the natural order, and the Angels makes it a universality. After all, Angels are every time and place. THIS IS NO SMALL THING. A man not covering his head and a woman covering her head, this is an act of worship that shows that we are submitted to God.

It seems that we have now set aside holy scripture, mainly for feminist pride. And this distortion or deconstruction of holy scripture for an agenda has made the way for gay pride to do the same thing. Do we accept the writings of Paul, or just the parts we like? So, was the Holy Spirit speaking through Paul? If we listen to Paul when it comes to the gifts of the spirit, the Lord's Supper, and on and on, why not about head coverings?

And the next thing you know, many Christians will cherry-pick the words of Christ, and ignore His definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman (Matthew 19:4-6). Wait, that is already happening....
Don't care about the artwork. Irrelevant to the topic. So what's the point in posting it?
Wikipedia is your source? 😂😂 find a better source.
I'll also pass on modern prophets.
That you showed up to this site and proclaimed that you're right and everyone else is wrong doesn't make you special or enlightened. It makes you average, typical and causes you to blend in with that multitude of others on this site with the same attitude.
You need to do better.
They "pretend" the scriptures mean something else. What an arrogant tool. So worried about head coverings while you reek with pride and raising yourself above others.
 
Jun 1, 2022
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#39
If head coverings were simply a part of culture, then Scripture would not devote 16 verses to this issue. There is some necessary spiritual teaching there, so what you should do is read and study 1 Corinthians 11 very carefully and ask yourself why God the Holy Spirit had to say so much about a passing "cultural fad". In India Christian women invariably cover their heads during worship.
It's not just in India, it is the worship practice in the Eastern Orthodox Churches even today. It was the practice in the Catholic Church until 1983. I go to a GAFCON Anglican Church. A few women cover their heads in service. There are other denominations that obey the Holy Spirit's instruction. But most westerners do not. It is not a fashion thing. Contrary to what some have said, wearing a head covering was not the fashion of the day when Paul wrote this. Christian women did this AFTER Paul wrote the letter, and did so until the cultural revolution. Those that argue do so with Paul, not me. I did not write it.

From what many write here, it looks like some are not even taking the time to seriously read what Paul wrote. This is not some complicated theological concept. Men do not cover their heads when they prophesy and pray. Women do not prophesy and pray with their heads u-n-c-o-v-e-r-e-d. It is a worship practice. I suppose we do not have to follow it, just like we don't have to actually sing or pray in service, or even have Communion.
christ nail.jpg
 
Jun 1, 2022
26
11
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South US
#40
What Custom is He talking about?? The only custom being dealt with in the passage was the custom of woman wearing a extra head covering...
You are making a mistake. Read verse 13. He refers to her head being uncovered... there is no custom that she have her head uncovered.

13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?