Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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Inquisitor.....One of the biggest disagreements among believers, one that has divided us....is wether we are under the Law. And I am confused as to how people can believe they are not under the Law.
Why?
Those who believe they are not under the Law, will tell me they sin...that they are sinners.
This is my conundrum....
Sin is the transgression of the Law. If they are not under Gods Law..How do they sin..What makes them a sinner?
Paul said without the Law there is no sin....This makes sense to me, but how does someone sin, without the Law...this I don't understand.
Obviously you must define sin differently than I have...So what is your definition of sin?
Why?
Those who believe they are not under the Law, will tell me they sin...that they are sinners.
This is my conundrum....
Sin is the transgression of the Law. If they are not under Gods Law..How do they sin..What makes them a sinner?
Paul said without the Law there is no sin....This makes sense to me, but how does someone sin, without the Law...this I don't understand.
Obviously you must define sin differently than I have...So what is your definition of sin?
We are under the law of love because Jesus ask us t olve God as much as we can and love your neighbor like yourself
But we not under the law of ritual like catholic teach to be save must water baptis, Eucharist etc, that are not the requirement of salvation but law of love is
You not save if you not love Jesus and hate your fellow man
But we not under the law of ritual like catholic teach to be save must water baptis, Eucharist etc, that are not the requirement of salvation but law of love is
You not save if you not love Jesus and hate your fellow man
Thanks for your reply.
I can see that you are struggling with this issue.
My definition is the Gentile definition of sin, which is not based on the law, obviously.
Anything that is not of faith is sin.
Here is a list of sins that Paul names.
Galatians 5:18-21
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Did you notice these sins, witchcraft, hostilities, outbursts of anger, ambition, factions, envy, etc.
None of these sins above are mentioned in the 10 commandments.
Paul says if you have any of these sinful attributes, your not going upstairs.
What's worse is that Paul says 'and things like these', so obviously there are many more.
The ten commandments are effectively useless, in giving us a clear picture of what sin really is.
I can see that you are struggling with this issue.
My definition is the Gentile definition of sin, which is not based on the law, obviously.
Anything that is not of faith is sin.
Here is a list of sins that Paul names.
Galatians 5:18-21
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Did you notice these sins, witchcraft, hostilities, outbursts of anger, ambition, factions, envy, etc.
None of these sins above are mentioned in the 10 commandments.
Paul says if you have any of these sinful attributes, your not going upstairs.
What's worse is that Paul says 'and things like these', so obviously there are many more.
The ten commandments are effectively useless, in giving us a clear picture of what sin really is.
Your extremely close with that short reply.
We were given a new commandment that all Christians are under.
John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Christ's love for us was not conditional, an eternal, divine love. Jesus has poured that love into our hearts.
The law asks you to love your neighbor as you love yourself. But Christ's new commandment, is that you love others the way that God has loved you. Which is a far superior way to love everyone than a love based on self love.
We were given a new commandment that all Christians are under.
John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
Christ's love for us was not conditional, an eternal, divine love. Jesus has poured that love into our hearts.
The law asks you to love your neighbor as you love yourself. But Christ's new commandment, is that you love others the way that God has loved you. Which is a far superior way to love everyone than a love based on self love.
That is why in Matt 25 Jesus welcome people that help the poor, not because salvation by work helping the poor, salvation by faith and real faith bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit
That faith produce salvation and the by product is love manifest in helping the needy
Another word, love is by product of salvation and if your faith not bear love, may be it is fake faith or you have love in your heart and save but don't have a chance to put it into action in this case you save
That faith produce salvation and the by product is love manifest in helping the needy
Another word, love is by product of salvation and if your faith not bear love, may be it is fake faith or you have love in your heart and save but don't have a chance to put it into action in this case you save
FreeGrace2 said:
And He also SAID in very PLAIN WORDS that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, IF IF IF you believe that Matt 24:13 is about soul salvation, what in the world do you think Jesus was teaching in John 10:28?
Such stubborness is rather frustrating.
Yet, you completely IGNORE John 5:24, 3:15,16, 6:40 and 47, that TELLS YOU clearly HOW to receive eternal life. There is nothing in Matt about how to receive eternal life.
John 10:28 is very clear: recipients of eternal life (given by Jesus Himself) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
You continue to refuse to believe what Jesus said so clearly.
You don't even understand the matt verse about "enduring to the end" yet you use that verse to deny John 10:28.
The answer is simple. Did Jesus give them eternal life when they believed? Read John 5:24 very carefully and prayerfully BEFORE you fire off your response.
If Jesus gives someone eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH. That is what Jesus said. I believe Him. You should too.
You need to understand Matt AND John 10:28. Matt does not trump John 10:28. Both are true, and neither contradicts the other.
So YOUR understanding of Matt is wrong.
Heb 10-
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
These verses prove that God REWARDS believers for their confidence. Those who believe that salvation can be lost CANNOT really be confident in their own salvation, since in their mind, it isn't guaranteed.
Heb 10-
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e]
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This addresses the problem of believers who aren't faithful or obdient. v.26
What is the consequence? v.27, judgment and eventually a painful physical death.
v.28 makes clear this is about physical death, NOT spiritual death.
v.29 makes clear the clearly painful discipline that God will give to such believers.
v.30 and 31 makes clear that no one will get away with anything.
This is what those who believe that salvation can be lost seem to ignore; God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11).
You guys just can't stand the idea that a believer will sin grievously and still be saved. That is because such people have NO clear idea what GRACE is and means.
So trying to have a conversation with those who DON'T have a biblical understanding of GRACE is impossible.
I keep emphasizing John 10:28 because it is the single MOST CLEAR verse about eternal security. Yet, you continue to twist it to say something else.
John 5:24 says plainly that those who believe POSSESS (has) eternal life. This means from the MOMENT that one believes, because at the MOMENT one believes, they ARE a believer and John 5:24 applies.
Then, Jesus taught in 10:28 that recipients of eternal life (believers, from 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
This isn't even debatable. So please give up your unbiblical notion that God will take salvation away from any of His children.
Such a thought is deception from the devil, who:
1 Pet 5:8 - Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Your ideas demonstrate that you have been devoured by the devil.
And He also SAID in very PLAIN WORDS that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, IF IF IF you believe that Matt 24:13 is about soul salvation, what in the world do you think Jesus was teaching in John 10:28?
Such stubborness is rather frustrating.
Yet, you completely IGNORE John 5:24, 3:15,16, 6:40 and 47, that TELLS YOU clearly HOW to receive eternal life. There is nothing in Matt about how to receive eternal life.
John 10:28 is very clear: recipients of eternal life (given by Jesus Himself) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
You continue to refuse to believe what Jesus said so clearly.
You don't even understand the matt verse about "enduring to the end" yet you use that verse to deny John 10:28.
The answer is simple. Did Jesus give them eternal life when they believed? Read John 5:24 very carefully and prayerfully BEFORE you fire off your response.
If Jesus gives someone eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH. That is what Jesus said. I believe Him. You should too.
You need to understand Matt AND John 10:28. Matt does not trump John 10:28. Both are true, and neither contradicts the other.
So YOUR understanding of Matt is wrong.
Heb 10-
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
These verses prove that God REWARDS believers for their confidence. Those who believe that salvation can be lost CANNOT really be confident in their own salvation, since in their mind, it isn't guaranteed.
Heb 10-
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e]
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This addresses the problem of believers who aren't faithful or obdient. v.26
What is the consequence? v.27, judgment and eventually a painful physical death.
v.28 makes clear this is about physical death, NOT spiritual death.
v.29 makes clear the clearly painful discipline that God will give to such believers.
v.30 and 31 makes clear that no one will get away with anything.
This is what those who believe that salvation can be lost seem to ignore; God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11).
You guys just can't stand the idea that a believer will sin grievously and still be saved. That is because such people have NO clear idea what GRACE is and means.
So trying to have a conversation with those who DON'T have a biblical understanding of GRACE is impossible.
I keep emphasizing John 10:28 because it is the single MOST CLEAR verse about eternal security. Yet, you continue to twist it to say something else.
John 5:24 says plainly that those who believe POSSESS (has) eternal life. This means from the MOMENT that one believes, because at the MOMENT one believes, they ARE a believer and John 5:24 applies.
Then, Jesus taught in 10:28 that recipients of eternal life (believers, from 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH.
This isn't even debatable. So please give up your unbiblical notion that God will take salvation away from any of His children.
Such a thought is deception from the devil, who:
1 Pet 5:8 - Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Your ideas demonstrate that you have been devoured by the devil.
I believe what Jesus taught in John 5:24, that believers possess eternal life, which means from the MOMENT they believe they have it.
Then, Jesus taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life (from the MOMENT of saving faith per 5:24) they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
This isn't difficult. When Jesus gives someone the free gift of eternal life, they shall never perish. And the gift is given to those who believe in Him, WHEN they believe.
So, whatever happens AFTER they have believed and received the free gift of eternal life, DOES NOT HAVE ANY AFFECT on their salvation.
However, God does not tolerate sin. Consider:
Heb 10-
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e]
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is about God's very painful discipline for His children who are unfaithful/disobedient. No one gets away with anything, which is the usual complaint of those who beieve OSNAS.
Then, Jesus taught in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life (from the MOMENT of saving faith per 5:24) they SHALL NEVER PERISH.
This isn't difficult. When Jesus gives someone the free gift of eternal life, they shall never perish. And the gift is given to those who believe in Him, WHEN they believe.
So, whatever happens AFTER they have believed and received the free gift of eternal life, DOES NOT HAVE ANY AFFECT on their salvation.
However, God does not tolerate sin. Consider:
Heb 10-
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e]
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This is about God's very painful discipline for His children who are unfaithful/disobedient. No one gets away with anything, which is the usual complaint of those who beieve OSNAS.
Read matt24:13 100 time tell me where in that verse say if you not endure only lose your reward and still save?
Is that possible believer for awhile than stop believe and lose his salvation?
Yes read these verse
Matt 13
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
Some seed fell on the rocky among the torn grow up but ,,,
Mean was believe for awhile than stop
Is that possible believer for awhile than stop believe and lose his salvation?
Yes read these verse
Matt 13
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
Some seed fell on the rocky among the torn grow up but ,,,
Mean was believe for awhile than stop
That is patently not possible! I've made it very clear what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28. And you STILL believe that salvation can be lost.
So please don't tell me what isn't true about what you claim to believe.
Jesus made eternal security VERY CLEAR yet you continue to reject that doctrine. All because you have failed to properly discern Scripture.
His words are TOO CLEAR to misunderstand, yet you continue to do just that.
When Jesus gives the free gift of eternal life to a believer WHEN he/she believes, that recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It could not be more clear than that.
None of the verses you share can refute what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Those who think there are verses that do refute what Jesus said are delusional.
So please don't tell me what isn't true about what you claim to believe.
Jesus made eternal security VERY CLEAR yet you continue to reject that doctrine. All because you have failed to properly discern Scripture.
His words are TOO CLEAR to misunderstand, yet you continue to do just that.
When Jesus gives the free gift of eternal life to a believer WHEN he/she believes, that recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH.
It could not be more clear than that.
None of the verses you share can refute what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Those who think there are verses that do refute what Jesus said are delusional.
Let me explain this to you once again. The word "saved" here refers to physical deliverance from the danger from the Tribulation.
No, that is no possible, unless Jesus wasn't telling the truth in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Show me the very words about "salvation being lost". Can you? No, all you have is a passage that you cannot properly understand.
Until you actually grasp what GRACE is, you can never understand why salvation cannot be lost.
Man can do nothing to earn salvation. It is by grace through faith.
Man can do nothing to lose salvation. Because we are saved by grace through faith. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
I wonder if you simply do not comprehend what Jesus said in John 10:28.
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
The red words in both statements refer to the same thing: believers.
The blue words in both statements refer to the RESULTS of being a recipient of eternal life.
Now, your challenge is to prove to me and this thread that the second statement does not represent what Jesus said in the first statement.
If you can't prove the second statement does not represent what Jesus said in the first sentence, they you have NO point.
No, that is no possible, unless Jesus wasn't telling the truth in John 5:24 and 10:28.
Show me the very words about "salvation being lost". Can you? No, all you have is a passage that you cannot properly understand.
Until you actually grasp what GRACE is, you can never understand why salvation cannot be lost.
Man can do nothing to earn salvation. It is by grace through faith.
Man can do nothing to lose salvation. Because we are saved by grace through faith. And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
I wonder if you simply do not comprehend what Jesus said in John 10:28.
"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."
Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
The red words in both statements refer to the same thing: believers.
The blue words in both statements refer to the RESULTS of being a recipient of eternal life.
Now, your challenge is to prove to me and this thread that the second statement does not represent what Jesus said in the first statement.
If you can't prove the second statement does not represent what Jesus said in the first sentence, they you have NO point.
Nonsense.
Luke 8- these are the words of Jesus:
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
We KNOW from John 5:24 that believers possess eternal life. Or prove my claim wrong from that verse.
We also KNOW from John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, if you believe what Jesus said in those 2 verses, then the second soil possessed eternal life and shall never perish. Period.
Your quote of 1 John 2:19 isn't even relevant to the soils.
Luke 8- these are the words of Jesus:
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
We KNOW from John 5:24 that believers possess eternal life. Or prove my claim wrong from that verse.
We also KNOW from John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, if you believe what Jesus said in those 2 verses, then the second soil possessed eternal life and shall never perish. Period.
Your quote of 1 John 2:19 isn't even relevant to the soils.
nonsense? such a christian response.. (smh)
they believe
believe and saving faith are not the same my friend. the people in james 2 beloeved also. Even demons believe yet tremble
did they produce fruit? No..
why? because they were never saved.
as for 1 john 2. It fits perfectly with the fact that those who believed for awhile and walk away in unbelief were never saved.
they believe
believe and saving faith are not the same my friend. the people in james 2 beloeved also. Even demons believe yet tremble
did they produce fruit? No..
why? because they were never saved.
as for 1 john 2. It fits perfectly with the fact that those who believed for awhile and walk away in unbelief were never saved.
Truth refuting false doctrine isn't "nonsense".
Correct. And John 5:24 SAYS plainly that believers POSSESS (has) eternal life.
Well, I suggest you have a chat with the apostle John then. He used that word "believe" about 100 times in his gospel, all of which were about getting saved.
OK, let's think about this for a sec. In 2:19, what exactly were the demons believing? Do you know? Did you check the verse before citing it?
James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
So, what's the subject here? Monotheism, or "God is One". The demons believe that. You know why they do? Because they EXPERIENCED His Trinity. That's why.
Do you think that believing that "God is One" is how to be saved??
Irrelevant.
There is no comparison between demons and humans.
OK, then I know that you don't understand or simply don't believe John 5:24, that believers possess eternal life, and John 10:28, where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
I guess we have nothing to discuss here. I believe what Jesus said. You obviously don't.
Correct. And John 5:24 SAYS plainly that believers POSSESS (has) eternal life.
Well, I suggest you have a chat with the apostle John then. He used that word "believe" about 100 times in his gospel, all of which were about getting saved.
OK, let's think about this for a sec. In 2:19, what exactly were the demons believing? Do you know? Did you check the verse before citing it?
James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
So, what's the subject here? Monotheism, or "God is One". The demons believe that. You know why they do? Because they EXPERIENCED His Trinity. That's why.
Do you think that believing that "God is One" is how to be saved??
Irrelevant.
There is no comparison between demons and humans.
OK, then I know that you don't understand or simply don't believe John 5:24, that believers possess eternal life, and John 10:28, where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
I guess we have nothing to discuss here. I believe what Jesus said. You obviously don't.